State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[zerostargeneral]

Al.M,

Once again you are the solid and rigorous mind that eschews the comfort of Dunning Kruger.

The ability to be aware of scientific explorations without losing perspective of humanistic experience is the pinnacle of intelligence in my opinion.

During such challenging times for most you remain a bastion of hope for us mere mortals.

Bravo Sir, kindest regards,G.

 

[Rensselaer]

It's all just electronics or electromechanical devices. Thus, if you would know how to measure all the audible differences, you could. You would have to know *what* to measure and you would have to know *how* to do it and you would have to have the technical capabilities at your disposal to do those exact measurements.

The problem is that we do not have anywhere near sufficient knowledge about all this, combined with a decided scientific lack of understanding of human psychoacoustics (yes, we have some, but not nearly enough).

But *in principle* there is nothing that "cannot be measured" in the physical world. Electronics and electromechanical devices are not magical voodoo. At the same time engineers and the technically informed public should exercise profound humility about the fact that we are a long way from knowing how to properly measure everything and from having the tools required to do it.


PS: I took no offense at your prejudice against digital, as I am already very familiar with it from your posts here.

I challenge you then to measure lumens, colour spectrum and particulate concentration or whatever you want to measure in order to declare what levels of each will guarantee the most beautiful sunset. After all, ”there is nothing that can’t be measured”.

 

[morricab]

I challenge you then to measure lumens, colour spectrum and particulate concentration or whatever you want to measure in order to declare what levels of each will guarantee the most beautiful sunset. After all, ”there is nothing that can’t be measured”.

Until neuroscience is better understood the best we can do is draw correlations between what we can measure and how humans respond to those conditions. If the correlation is strong then work to design products that follow from that discovery.

 

[Al M.]

Al.M,

Once again you are the solid and rigorous mind that eschews the comfort of Dunning Kruger.

The ability to be aware of scientific explorations without losing perspective of humanistic experience is the pinnacle of intelligence in my opinion.

During such challenging times for most you remain a bastion of hope for us mere mortals.

Bravo Sir, kindest regards,G.

Thank you, Sir. I do not deserve them, but I appreciate your very kind words.

 

[Al M.]

Beautifully put Al.

Thank you, Graham.

 

[andromedaaudio]

But *in principle* there is nothing that "cannot be measured" in the physical world

" In principle "

Fact is we know about 0,1 % of the universe .
Ever tried to understand a singularity , let alone measure it

 

[MarcelNL]

I used to be think we can measure everything, I've left the need to be able to explain and just enjoy the results while getting more into 'intuitive designing' meaning ; tinker and listen', which may sound erratic (and it is at times) yet at the same it has brought my sound further than any existing measurements did or can.

 

[morricab]

I used to be think we can measure everything, I've left the need to be able to explain and just enjoy the results while getting more into 'intuitive designing' meaning ; tinker and listen', which may sound erratic (and it is at times) yet at the same it has brought my sound further than any existing measurements did or can.

Well, it's even worse than that...we cannot really explain the impact of the things we CAN measure... nevermind what we cannot measure!

 

[microstrip]

It is curious that turntable speed (an electromechanical characteristic) is still discussed with almost childish arguments directed mainly to marketing - % of integral variation at 2 second intervals or number of reads per second - that show no established accepted correlation with subjective sound quality - and tape was deeply studied and new meaningful measurements were added to the classical ones. I am addressing the work of Dale Manquen, that designed and manufactured an instrument to measure scrape flutter, that correlated well with the subjective sound of tape transports.

Although I applause the work of turntable designers, such as Grand Prix, as long as their measuring techniques are only applied to successive versions of their turntables they are of little value to our discussions. In the gold days of turntables Thorens, for example, developed a special tool to measure wow and flutter and manufactured and sold it to anyone wanting it. But we still do not have a standard measurement to quantify turntable isolation.

 

[microstrip]

I challenge you then to measure lumens, colour spectrum and particulate concentration or whatever you want to measure in order to declare what levels of each will guarantee the most beautiful sunset. After all, ”there is nothing that can’t be measured”.

Niels Bohr said that nothing exists until it has been measured.

 

[Lagonda]

Unplug the connecting cable between RR and Condor, you will get the speed reading without constant correction.

Sure Mike, it's just that once the RoadRunner is switched off, I have no more data on speed at any one instant.
In the end, I'm detecting sufficient advantage in choosing to only use Roadrunner to settle the speed at the start of a listening session.
It's a small positive in the scheme of things, but preferable.

 

[treitz3]

Some guy I think we all know (or most of us do) said it best, with regards to this latest tangent within the discussion -

"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".

With that said - Not all things that can be measured can be heard and not all things heard can be measured. That is a quote you can take from me.

Tom

 

[PeterA]

But we still do not have a standard measurement to quantify turntable isolation.

The interesting thing would be if we could measure it and then correlate the measurements to sound quality. We assume the better the isolation, the better the sound, but what if the implementation itself manages to hurt the sound in some way?

We have discussed the many forms of vibrations affecting a turntable both internal and external. The distinction between isolation and dampening to address resonances and vibrations is I think the real issue. Not an easy subject to understand. Luckily we have choices based on sound quality.

 

[microstrip]

and i think our brains are sensitive to degrees of continuousness (lack of servo feedback.....no matter how fine the level).

i've posted this before, and i know it tweaks @tima (sorry ), but i do think it speaks to what i am referring to. not claiming it's exactly spot on, but it does express what i mean by continuousness, and why our brains/senses prefer it. i know mine does. whatever the CS Port and Saskia are doing not correcting speed, my body likes it alot. maybe tt's need to be at a particular level of execution to get the full measure of benefit of lack of speed correction? so maybe not any absolute. but possible.



recalling my years with the Rockport Sirius III, maybe it is the only servo speed tt that was also able to achieve this continuousness to my ears. but it's level of execution is maybe still not fully matched by anything else i have heard.

Mike,

Your A820's machines have lots of servo feedback at the capstan, the most critical moving part of a tape machine. Are your brain/senses affected by it?

 

[Al M.]

" In principle "

Fact is we know about 0,1 % of the universe .
Ever tried to understand a singularity , let alone measure it

Yes, on the largest and smallest scales our ability to observe and measure breaks down.

A lot of our universe has expanded to the point where light from it cannot reach us anymore; thus it is in principle unobservable. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle constrains our ability to measure at the level of subatomic particles.

The singularity is in the past, and it cannot even be physically described.

 

[MarcelNL]

I feel it's even simpler, I don't want to be held back by having to explain what works, I just want the result and move on...one can dwell several years on a single item in science, to conclude that 'more research is needed'...the outcome of most studies.

 

[treitz3]

Niels Bohr said that nothing exists until it has been measured.

So, the universe doesn't exist?

Mr. Bohr had better get in touch with publishing companies because some textbooks apparently need to be re-written.

Tom

 

[microstrip]

The interesting thing would be if we could measure it and then correlate the measurements to sound quality. We assume The better the isolation the better the sound, what does the isolation message its self heard the sound in someway? We have discussed the many forms of vibrations affecting a turntable both internal and external. The distinction between isolation and dampening to address resonances and vibrations is I think the real issue. Not an easy subject to be understand. Luckily we have choices based on sound quality.

The real answer is that if resources were directed to such subjects many things could be measured and studied. However no one will spend a single cent on systematic knowledge of turntable sound - manufacturers will just focus on their particular preference. So we keep discussing our sound preferences, as you say.

 

[MarcelNL]

the perceived need to simplify things by a.o. measuring is not unheard of or weird, yet leaving that behind is really freeing the mind!

 

[microstrip]

I feel it's even simpler, I don't want to be held back by having to explain what works, I just want the result and move on...one can dwell several years on a single item in science, to conclude that 'more research is needed'...the outcome of most studies.

Unfortunately stereo science is a mostly a perceptual science, that has its proper methods, that can surely include technical measurements. We can't debate it using just physics and engineering.