State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

Looks like a pair of ML-6 and a Cotter Base in the system. That would be a bit later than 1975
also a Levinson Studer. That picture was taken closer to 1980. I should know as I was there then. I got there just before the HJQD came down and we replaced it with Arnie's IRS. Lyric was an amazing place and we did all we could to expose people to what hi fi had to offer. We did loads of business and the overwhelming majority of it was to non audiophile types. We got a lot of press in places like the times, New York Magazine, TV etc. This works. Audiophiles have tunnel vision, its their hobby and that is all they see I get it. I started there is 1978/9 and I think this picture was just before that. Mike was a something and so was Lyric back then.
 
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I will address my country, not the US. In fact the number of people entering this hobby is increasing - sales of products like Devialet and entry level Sonus Faber, Focal or Wharfedale have brought many new consumers. Prima Luna sells regularly. The main reason why many people are not buying in the mid and high price high-end is mostly the lack of confidence in the economical situation after the Covid beginning, not the lack of interest in music or equipment. The current high speculative prices of tubes is also affecting in some way the image of the high-end.
 
I think HPs initial concept and pursuit of making Hifi sound like “real instruments in real space” was fundamentally correct. His development of audio descriptive language was important but he was no scientist and therefore his methodology was chaotic and sometimes results contradictory. But I don’t think he was toxic...he was a seeker.
Harry was a lot of things including my mentor and friend but his love for music was undeniable. THe things that happened to him and the magazines were all because of money and the lack of. He never wanted to take advertising and we fought about it all the time. In fact I left the staff because of it because I knew it could not survive without some way to pay for the production and staff. It eventually happened in a different way than we discussed and in a lot of ways that ended an era and started something else. Harry was not toxic , it was the industry trying to take advantage of him that might have been. We owe him a lot! RIP
 
Which is probably why most can't cook either. Deliveroo is much simpler.
you have to learn to cook, just like you need to learn to listen or drive a car or play a piano, We can all hear but that is very different.
 
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I think HPs initial concept and pursuit of making Hifi sound like “real instruments in real space” was fundamentally correct. His development of audio descriptive language was important but he was no scientist and therefore his methodology was chaotic and sometimes results contradictory. But I don’t think he was toxic...he was a seeker.
You didn’t know him Brad, nothing he said about real instruments in real space was original this all goes back decades before he started the magazine. If I recall correctly Holt started Stereophile with the same concept prior to Harry’s AS. I grant him that initially his writing was interesting and it reeled you in but as his influence grew so did his ego. Problem was he could write but not hear, he wouldn’t know what a high end system should sound like if it bit hard in his fat ass but he convinced people that he was the maven. All you had to do was visit Sea Cliff and hear it for yourself. All the crap he used to talk about his people and setup was a big fat lie, there were multiple systems sitting on the floor in the back room humming and buzzing while he supposedly reviewed them. The main system was a joke all you could hear was mud and bass boom because he was probably half deaf but he had his dumb ass groupies around him who kept him going and contributed to the bullshit. Worst thing about Harry was that he kept good brands down on purpose because they didn’t kiss ass the way some did. It was always the same brands he promoted while promoting himself as the king telling us all how he sent an amp or preamp for revision and then it came back perfect because of his ignorant feedback. He derailed the industry and put many good people out of business while leading unsuspecting consumers down every wrong path until they didn’t know top from bottom, many are still under the influence. Yes we were also naive for believing without verifying but that doesn’t absolve him. Directly or indirectly in the end his influence was what changed the industry for the worse, IMO of course. This thread started off with @RoyGregory ’s article a long time insider about this fact only he can’t be as blunt as I am. Don’t think the idolized reviewer days are over some still remain untouchable while more informed other reviewers get a lot of flack or get the recognition because they don’t pile it on the same way. Fortunately there are old timers who‘re bringing things around carving their own path and giving their customer an education while offering an experience. Look at Bob @Rhapsody’s showroom and now showrooms, a lot of effort and thought has gone into them. @Elliot G., we have a difference of opinion about some matters but he’s bringing new to the consumer and opening his doors for people to see and hear for themselves. Of course there are others too but both are on this forum and have been around for a while, they deserve recognition.

david
 
David,

What confusion are you talking about? Can you provide specifics? I am curious to learn if there are things we can do better.
Hi Lee,
Please read any of the gear threads here or on any other forum it’s blatantly obvious, of course one has to know what’s right before understanding that there’s confusion and tries to help others!

david
 
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You didn’t know him Brad, nothing he said about real instruments in real space was original this all goes back decades before he started the magazine. If I recall correctly Holt started Stereophile with the same concept prior to Harry’s AS. I grant him that initially his writing was interesting and it reeled you in but as his influence grew so did his ego. Problem was he could write but not hear, he wouldn’t know what a high end system should sound like if it bit hard in his fat ass but he convinced people that he was the maven. All you had to do was visit Sea Cliff and hear it for yourself. All the crap he used to talk about his people and setup was a big fat lie, there were multiple systems sitting on the floor in the back room humming and buzzing while he supposedly reviewed them. The main system was a joke all you could hear was mud and bass boom because he was probably half deaf but he had his dumb ass groupies around him who kept him going and contributed to the bullshit. Worst thing about Harry was that he kept good brands down on purpose because they didn’t kiss ass the way some did. It was always the same brands he promoted while promoting himself as the king telling us all how he sent an amp or preamp for revision and then it came back perfect because of his ignorant feedback. He derailed the industry and put many good people out of business while leading unsuspecting consumers down every wrong path until they didn’t know top from bottom, many are still under the influence. Yes we were also naive for believing without verifying but that doesn’t absolve him. Directly or indirectly in the end his influence was what changed the industry for the worse, IMO of course. This thread started off with @RoyGregory ’s article a long time insider about this fact only he can’t be as blunt as I am. Don’t think the idolized reviewer days are over some still remain untouchable while more informed other reviewers get a lot of flack or get the recognition because they don’t pile it on the same way. Fortunately there are old timers who‘re bringing things around carving their own path and giving their customer an education while offering an experience. Look at Bob @Rhapsody’s showroom and now showrooms, a lot of effort and thought has gone into them. @Elliot G., we have a difference of opinion about some matters but he’s bringing new to the consumer and opening his doors for people to see and hear for themselves. Of course there are others too but both are on this forum and have been around for a while, they deserve recognition.

david

This post was written after the guy read David's previous ones and said...

 
Hi Lee,
Please read any of the gear threads here or on any other forum it’s blatantly obvious, of course one has to know what’s right before understanding that there’s confusion and tries to help others!

david
Hi David,

That’s not very helpful to be honest. Without specifics, I don’t know what to change at the company.
 
You didn’t know him Brad, nothing he said about real instruments in real space was original this all goes back decades before he started the magazine. If I recall correctly Holt started Stereophile with the same concept prior to Harry’s AS. I grant him that initially his writing was interesting and it reeled you in but as his influence grew so did his ego. Problem was he could write but not hear, he wouldn’t know what a high end system should sound like if it bit hard in his fat ass but he convinced people that he was the maven. All you had to do was visit Sea Cliff and hear it for yourself. All the crap he used to talk about his people and setup was a big fat lie, there were multiple systems sitting on the floor in the back room humming and buzzing while he supposedly reviewed them. The main system was a joke all you could hear was mud and bass boom because he was probably half deaf but he had his dumb ass groupies around him who kept him going and contributed to the bullshit. Worst thing about Harry was that he kept good brands down on purpose because they didn’t kiss ass the way some did. It was always the same brands he promoted while promoting himself as the king telling us all how he sent an amp or preamp for revision and then it came back perfect because of his ignorant feedback. He derailed the industry and put many good people out of business while leading unsuspecting consumers down every wrong path until they didn’t know top from bottom, many are still under the influence. Yes we were also naive for believing without verifying but that doesn’t absolve him. Directly or indirectly in the end his influence was what changed the industry for the worse, IMO of course. This thread started off with @RoyGregory ’s article a long time insider about this fact only he can’t be as blunt as I am. Don’t think the idolized reviewer days are over some still remain untouchable while more informed other reviewers get a lot of flack or get the recognition because they don’t pile it on the same way. Fortunately there are old timers who‘re bringing things around carving their own path and giving their customer an education while offering an experience. Look at Bob @Rhapsody’s showroom and now showrooms, a lot of effort and thought has gone into them. @Elliot G., we have a difference of opinion about some matters but he’s bringing new to the consumer and opening his doors for people to see and hear for themselves. Of course there are others too but both are on this forum and have been around for a while, they deserve recognition.

david
First thank you for the kind words. I did know Harry in fact I knew Harry really well and was in his listening rooms more times than I can remember over 15 years and I can 't disagree with your view more. I was there with so many of the great people of this Industry. There are so many Industry members that have been there and have a 180 degree difference of opinion with you. I have no idea what happened with you or your interaction with HP but my listening experiences were nothing like you described EVER. ,Magnepan, Infinity, Genesis, Nola, Scaena and its predecessor the Pipe Dream all were in his main room and they never sounded like you described. They were not always perfect as no one 's system is but the nights of wonder and amazement were often and real . I knew HP for a very long time and he was a tough person to be friends with at times but I spent a lot of nights listening to music, both live and recorded, had many dinners, went to quite a few audio parties and I think that if you asked some of the members on this site they would tell you much of what i have. Ask Scaena's Alan Eichenbaum, ask Karen Sumner, Ask Bill Peugh all of which I know are WBF members,. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but the assassination of a friends character and abilities is way out of line.
 
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You didn’t know him Brad, nothing he said about real instruments in real space was original this all goes back decades before he started the magazine. If I recall correctly Holt started Stereophile with the same concept prior to Harry’s AS. I grant him that initially his writing was interesting and it reeled you in but as his influence grew so did his ego. Problem was he could write but not hear, he wouldn’t know what a high end system should sound like if it bit hard in his fat ass but he convinced people that he was the maven. All you had to do was visit Sea Cliff and hear it for yourself. All the crap he used to talk about his people and setup was a big fat lie, there were multiple systems sitting on the floor in the back room humming and buzzing while he supposedly reviewed them. The main system was a joke all you could hear was mud and bass boom because he was probably half deaf but he had his dumb ass groupies around him who kept him going and contributed to the bullshit. Worst thing about Harry was that he kept good brands down on purpose because they didn’t kiss ass the way some did. It was always the same brands he promoted while promoting himself as the king telling us all how he sent an amp or preamp for revision and then it came back perfect because of his ignorant feedback. He derailed the industry and put many good people out of business while leading unsuspecting consumers down every wrong path until they didn’t know top from bottom, many are still under the influence. Yes we were also naive for believing without verifying but that doesn’t absolve him. Directly or indirectly in the end his influence was what changed the industry for the worse, IMO of course. This thread started off with @RoyGregory ’s article a long time insider about this fact only he can’t be as blunt as I am. Don’t think the idolized reviewer days are over some still remain untouchable while more informed other reviewers get a lot of flack or get the recognition because they don’t pile it on the same way. Fortunately there are old timers who‘re bringing things around carving their own path and giving their customer an education while offering an experience. Look at Bob @Rhapsody’s showroom and now showrooms, a lot of effort and thought has gone into them. @Elliot G., we have a difference of opinion about some matters but he’s bringing new to the consumer and opening his doors for people to see and hear for themselves. Of course there are others too but both are on this forum and have been around for a while, they deserve recognition.

david
You are right, I never knew and I never heard his systems at Sea Cliff but so what? It might mean his specific gear recommendations could be less than desirable but I was always more interested in his philosophical musings, which resonated with me as a budding audiophile. IMO, it is still the most correct way to approach system building even if its greatest prophet wasn’t all that good at it in practice. You have to separate the practice as a concept from the practitioner as executor of the practice. A bit like coaching and playing a sport. The coach may have great ideas on how to win but it takes talent to make the win.
 
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Hi David,

That’s not very helpful to be honest. Without specifics, I don’t know what to change at the company.
Hi Lee,
It’s your company and I haven’t read an issue since late 90’s to offer an opinion but as an example take a look at the grounding box thread and try to figure out why seemingly rational people throw thousands even tens of thousands at literal cat litter boxes and top it off with thousands in wires, maybe start there and address it. What are people really hearing and who are they following and why? Do away with the status quo and bring something new to the table. You might lose some advertisers and you’ll probably gain subscribers. People are in this forum and those like it for a reason :).

david
 
Hi Lee,

Thanks for your response.

How many "mom and pop" stores are left?

What is the current percentage of internet sales versus say 10 years ago?

What is the current demographic (age, income, etc.) of new folks buying dedicated two channel five figure audio systems?

How many sales are from older audio type updates and upgrades versus new, younger customers?

How much of hi end sales (including music sales) occur in the oversea market versus here in the USA?

When you say subscriptions, record sales, etc. are doubling, what are the actual numbers?

How many folks spend dedicated time listening to music on a one on one basis?

IMHO, the hi end audio industry is similar to the luxury car or watch market. It will always exist but it is such a small percentage market compared to the typical buyer of similar products. And what are the hi end audio manufacturers doing to expand their market and attract a younger cliental? I personally find the current practice of increasing MSRP prices to "what the market will bare" obscene and self destructive.

I do appreciate your positivity but given your position with TAS, it is not suprising. Having said that, I do not see many posts on this thread supporting your perspective.

I hope you are correct but we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Best.
 
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...Don’t think the idolized reviewer days are over some still remain untouchable while more informed other reviewers get a lot of flack or get the recognition because they don’t pile it on the same way...

david
In my experience (and opinion) this statement has some validity. The rest of the rant...
 
Aha, THAT'S what'll revitalise the hobby, dropping discussion on grounding. It's just so obvious lol.
 
First thank you for the kind words. I did know Harry in fact I knew Harry really well and was in his listening rooms more times than I can remember over 15 years and I can 't disagree with your view more. I was there with so many of the great people of this Industry. There are so many Industry members that have been there and have a 180 degree difference of opinion with you. I have no idea what happened with you or your interaction with HP but my listening experiences were nothing like you described EVER. ,Magnepan, Infinity, Genesis, Nola, Scaena and its predecessor the Pipe Dream all were in his main room and they never sounded like you described. They were not always perfect as no one 's system is but the nights of wonder and amazement were often and real . I knew HP for a very long time and he was a tough person to be friends with at times but I spent a lot of nights listening to music, both live and recorded, had many dinners, went to quite a few audio parties and I think that if you asked some of the members on this site they would tell you much of what i have. Ask Scaena's Alan Eichenbaum, ask Karen Sumner, Ask Bill Peugh all of which I know are WBF members,. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but the assassination of a friends character and abilities is way out of line.
We all partied in the 80’s and 90’s in the industry as did many audiophile friends, festive times. Maybe it was because we were young or it was a different vibe but I miss them.
It’s natural for you to defend your friend to me he was a choke hold on the industry. I know Sunny and Alan well enough to know how much time and effort they put in that speaker before the Pipedream became Scaena and a real product, what did Harry have to do with anything aside from promoting a defective incomplete speaker to the detriment of the consumers who bought into it and the manufacturers of real finished quality speakers who lost out because of his recommendation? Anyway this is something we’ll never see eye to eye but I appreciate your position and your friendship with the man, RIP.

david
 
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Yep, like there's no foo in other hobbies.
 
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We all partied in the 80’s and 90’s in the industry as did many audiophile friends, festive times. Maybe it was because we were young or it was a different vibe but I miss them.
It’s natural for you to defend your friend to me he was a choke hold on the industry. I know Sunny and Alan well enough to know how much time and effort they put in that speaker before the Pipedream became Scaena and a real product, what did Harry have to do with anything aside from promoting a defective incomplete speaker to the detriment of the consumers who bought into it and the manufacturers of real finished quality speakers who lost out because of his recommendation? Anyway this is something we’ll never see eye to eye but I appreciate your position and your friendship with the man, RIP.

david
its not important to me that we agree , in fact , it truly is insignificant to me, however you seem to like to take these huge swings at products and people making all kinds of accusations without facts or proof. I have never ever before interacted with you nor really paid attention to any of your rants but as I said I will defend my friends to the death. Roy in the article which I posted tells everyone the industry does not have a level playing field and that all products and companies are not treated equally or even given equal access. I believe this is true and have seen and reacted to it first hand. Perhaps your stuff was treated that way I don't know why you have to rage against everyone and everything here that you don't agree with. Disagree fine but you sound really bitter and a bit over the edge David. I seriously don't think pissing all over everyone makes anyone care about you or your gear. Alan is one of my best friends and I have known and been close to him and his family for many years. We travel together, we play golf together, I will see him and have dinner with him at Axpona. I seriously doubt he would agree with a word you said.
 
its not important to me that we agree , in fact , it truly is insignificant to me, however you seem to like to take these huge swings at products and people making all kinds of accusations without facts or proof. I have never ever before interacted with you nor really paid attention to any of your rants but as I said I will defend my friends to the death. Roy in the article which I posted tells everyone the industry does not have a level playing field and that all products and companies are not treated equally or even given equal access. I believe this is true and have seen and reacted to it first hand. Perhaps your stuff was treated that way I don't know why you have to rage against everyone and everything here that you don't agree with. Disagree fine but you sound really bitter and a bit over the edge David. I seriously don't think pissing all over everyone makes anyone care about you or your gear. Alan is one of my best friends and I have known and been close to him and his family for many years. We travel together, we play golf together, I will see him and have dinner with him at Axpona. I seriously doubt he would agree with a word you said.
Are you saying that Alan & Sunny didn’t put any effort behind Scaena? That was my only comment.

I’m not running for a popularity contest Elliot I’m always the same you’re only collected until you lose it. This has nothing to do with selling my gear as you put it nor there‘s any such calculation in anything I said, not as if I’ll make media friends with my comments. You on the other have seem to make that calculation.

david

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