State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[andromedaaudio]

Im sure this man is not a high end novice .
He probably went through a lot of gear and ended up with this .
And he likes it , i assume he is from asia so he probably has heard /owned plenty of horns

You tube vids can give a indication no more then that .
I would never buy gear based of a you tube vid

 

[bonzo75]

The quality of the sound from contemporary gear and how it is set up is only one aspect of the state of the high end audio industry, but it is a very important aspect. Bonzo posts many videos of vintage systems, mostly horn and vinyl and tube based systems, and they can tell us a lot.

We have to go beyond this forum to see videos of contemporary solid state digital cone systems. But they exist on YouTube and they’re a big part of Jay’s audio lab website. Based on the comments below his videos, people like the sound of his systems.

For me, this video comparison is quite interesting. How can we be impressed with an old system jammed into a basement seemingly haphazardly with none of the fancy tweaks and accessories that have entered the industry and not drool over the quality of sound (even over one of these videos) of some of the greatest brands, super expensive with all the bells and whistle’s and highly profitable add-ons that are represented in the contemporary system?

It is safe to assume from the specific components in the second system that they were sold and set up by a dealer. Why is the sound so bad? What does that say about the state of the industry? Big bucks for what exactly? It must be an anomaly and not representative. For the sake of the industry, the famous brands, and the dealers, I sure hope so.

One point, that Altec was the big brand. It was a real company, like Bell labs (WE), JBL, TAD, all part of the Lansing heritage, it is not just some stuff hiding under a proprietary brand thrown together. Just because it is now shut down does not take away how the R&D behind it was. In terms of cost, I won't be surprised if the Altec woofer costs more in real terms. The price is low because there are no marketing or distribution margins or an attempt to reduce the negative effects of a large box around the drivers.

Horns are simple crossovers, very minimal circuitry in the amp. The difference in midbass comes from a higher quality woofer that requires minimal movement and drive being driven by a very low grip amp, and moving more air, the other being a smaller woofer enclosed in a cabinet to get the higher decibel, being choked by the grip that is required to move it.

 

[Salectric]

I too found the two videos interesting. The comparison just reinforces my own preference for vintage horns and tubes.

 

[bonzo75]

This is a front loaded horn thing, not necessarily vintage or modern, though Altec woofers are legendary

There are videos of metallica, Queen, Janis Joplin, Joan Baez posts of this system, plus full orchestra and concertos. Same with other Altec and modern and vintage horn videos covering various genre

 

[PeterA]

Im sure this man is not a high end novice .
He probably went through a lot of gear and ended up with this .
And he likes it , i assume he is from asia so he probably has heard /owned plenty of horns

You tube vids can give a indication no more then that .
I would never buy gear based of a you tube vid

I agree. Of course it’s all about personal preference. The interesting thing for me is just how much the sound has changed over time. And perhaps these two videos are not at all representative.
One topic of discussion in this thread is about increasing exposure and spreading the word. Videos are certainly being used to do that in all forms, here on this forum and over YouTube in general and people share these videos and it spreadthe word.

I don’t think people buy components or systems based on what they hear on videos. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that they should. However, stuff can be learned from watching these videos, and if something grabs your interest, the hope is you will pursue it further and actually hear something in person before you make a decision to purchase it. That is not so different from a glossy magazine review.

The industry does not seem to be utilizing system videos to increase exposure of the sound of these components and systems. Individuals are doing it and some influencers like Jay audio lab. The industry is using videos for interviews and documenting events but not for sound.

I think it would be pretty cool to hear a video of the sound of each of the rooms at Rhapsody for instance or of the sound of Steve’s system at the Horizon DAC launch event.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...or QR codes in the mags which you could scan and link to a sound file or video hosted by the mag's online system...thereby linking the old-world paper world to the online. This is not new tech, BTW.

 

[PeterA]

This is a front loaded horn thing, not necessarily vintage or modern, though Altec woofers are legendary

There are videos of metallica, Queen, Janis Joplin, Joan Baez posts of this system, plus full orchestra and concertos. Same with other Altec and modern and vintage horn videos covering various genre

I was the only person who really ever posted system videos of Magico Speakers, at least on this forum, and I thought they sounded pretty decent. There are some of Magico on audioNirvana. Andromeda and Stehno post videos of contemporary systems, but very few other people do.

It will be interesting to see if dealers and manufacturers start to produce slick professional system videos. One of the new Magico listening room for instance. Based on the comment section under videos on YouTube, it seems these videos are popular and people like them. Is the industry making note of that? Decent sound over YouTube gets you into a store to hear phenomenal sound in person. Why not?

 

[andromedaaudio]

It could be that a vid increases interest it could also be the other way around unfortunately
I have heard 2 way systems sound great on you tube but in real life expirience they have no bass at all,
And sound just average

Its of course a risk to post a vid . may be a customer will pass on a product based on a vid and in real life would like it .

Imo its the set up at a dealer that should determine a sale .

Not online vids opinions reviewers whatever.
Let the customer decide (in the most optimal setting)

 

[PeterA]

It could be that a vid increases interest it could also be the other way around unfortunately
I have heard 2 way systems sound great on you tube but in real life expirience they have no bass at all,
And sound just average

Its of course a risk to post a vid . may be a customer will pass on a product based on a vid and in real life would like it .

Imo its the set up at a dealer that should determines a sale .

I agree, but dealerships are disappearing and Lee and Elliot are talking about increasing exposure to a broader audience. That broader audience doesn’t even know some of this stuff exists. And they watch videos. And perhaps they have great headphones for listening to their Head Fi systems. I’m talking about high resolution system videos from manufactures that may be just as high quality as the source material going into the DAC and headphone amplifier. Clearly from the commentary below some YouTube system channels, people enjoy these videos and think they sound great. Jay and OCD Mike are selling stuff based on the exposure from these videos. The audience is not you and me.

 

[KeithR]

why are we comparing vintage vs contemporary systems on this thread again? bc Bonzo is biased to one? are we really to the state on WBF that we just throw random YT videos of systems no one has heard back at each other as gotcha? what a bunch of BS.

this is about the state of the contemporary high end and audio reviewing from Roy Gregory's think piece I thought.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Imo its the set up at a dealer that should determines a sale

I agree with that, but the video aspect online cuts both ways: enticement and detraction. Folks "should" understand it's a video and not "real."

There is a level of expectation from many folks that products and marketing will meet them where they live. Online, typically.

Mags are cool, as far as they go, but they're not dynamic or interactive. Providing a bridge between both worlds is modern. Hanging with print alone is out-dated modality.

Sure, there are issues with videos, photos too. Another thing to edit and get right.

When I see photos of the rooms of some reviewers, I really wonder what the hell they are hearing. Speakers jammed up close to walls, layers of gear, furniture between the speakers and listener. And here I am sweating every detail.

 

[Kingrex]

Which Mike?

OCD HiFi Guy

 

[MarkusBarkus]

are we really to the state on WBF that we just throw random YT videos of systems no one has heard back at each other as gotcha?

...it's like a rap throw-down! I love it. Instead of drop the mic, drop the camera. You guys can be highly entertaining...

 

[PeterA]

why are we comparing vintage vs contemporary systems on this thread again? bc Bonzo is biased to one? are we really to the state on WBF that we just throw random YT videos of systems no one has heard back at each other as gotcha? what a bunch of BS.

this is about the state of the contemporary high end and audio reviewing from Roy Gregory's think piece I thought.

Yes, the thread started out there. Elliot and Lee and others have criticised and defended the reviewing topic. There seems to be disagreement and the discussion fizzled out. Some have solicited opinions from members and asked for suggestions and feedback. I think the goal is in large part to increase exposure. This discussion is all a part of that effort. The magazines were about that. They are now morphing and expanding channels in an attempt to reach more. YouTube is part of that. It is hip and cool. The young are listening to headphones, DACs, and headphone amps. I'm doing the same when watching these videos. Some sound pretty darn good, and make me contemplate upgrading my headphones. Good news for the industry.

 

[sbnx]

I agree, but dealerships are disappearing and Lee and Elliot are talking about increasing exposure to a broader audience. That broader audience doesn’t even know some of this stuff exists. And they watch videos. And perhaps they have great headphones for listening to their Head Fi systems. I’m talking about high resolution system videos from manufactures that may be just as high quality as the source material going into the DAC and headphone amplifier. Clearly from the commentary below some YouTube system channels, people enjoy these videos and think they sound great. Jay and OCD Mike are selling stuff based on the exposure from these videos. The audience is not you and me.

Yeah, I think this is the on-line thing that Roy is talking about. It seems the industry is currently stuck in the 20th century. Lee posted early on about the ever increasing costs of paper and ink. One way around this is to get rid of the paper and ink. To be fair I have not done all of the business analysis around print subscription vs youtube. But I know I would pay for a subscription to a TAS youtube channel if the content is there. I would much rather watch a series of videos than read a review. Jay is up to 10,000 subscribers which should say something. The youtube videos, in general, are much more engaging and educational. Besides Jay there is Hans Beekhuyzen, GR Research, Darko audio, New Record Day, and many others. All of these people are just single, passionate individuals producing great content. Much like Harry Pearson was back in the day when printed magazines were the way to communicate to a large audience of enthusiasts. I am struggling to understand how a company that already has a fleet of reviewers and the respect of the industry can't make this happen.

For a TAS youtube review , take the RH review of the XVX system as an example. I see a whole series of videos for this. one that focuses on the unpackaging and setup. One that would be an interview with Stirling Trayle on his observations of the setup process. One where RH talks about what all he is hearing and describes the sound and then, of course, a video or two where some recordings are done of music playing on the system. Of course, each of the videos is going to have advertising just like all youtube videos do. but in this case the advertising would be audio related.

I can hear you guys now -- "Youtube sound is so bad why bother." Two reasons. One is that I can't hear anything when I read a RH review. The second is that even with cheap headphones I can hear a clear difference between two presentations in Jay's videos. For example, when he compared the solid state (Gryphon,Solution) vs Tube (VAC 450,Master) it was very easy to hear. But, an even better solution would be to put the FLAC files up on a server for download/streaming. Then we don't have the compression thing on youtube.

Maybe Lee is already working on this. I hope so. Too slow to change and evolution usually takes care of these things.

 

[Al M.]

Im sure this man is not a high end novice .
He probably went through a lot of gear and ended up with this .
And he likes it , i assume he is from asia so he probably has heard /owned plenty of horns

You tube vids can give a indication no more then that .
I would never buy gear based of a you tube vid

That reminds me of an incident in my student years in the 1980s. I was living with other students, and we bought a $ 200 amp for the living room system to replace the old one, and we were thrilled that it sounded so much better and clearer. At some point, while we played some Supertramp, one student got up and turned up the treble knob because he found this to sound more exciting, to the point where the singer's voice became bright and hissy. I immediately said, no this does not sound natural (seriously, I did use the term "natural" back then!), and turned the treble knob down to its middle neutral position again.

Maybe someone like that fellow student now owns that badly set up million dollar system and is perfectly happy with his "exciting" sound...

 

[Al M.]

I too found the two videos interesting. The comparison just reinforces my own preference for vintage horns and tubes.

No, this has nothing to do with that. My system sounds closer in full-bodied tonal balance to that horn video, but with greater treble extension. It sounds nothing like that thin and bleached-out sounding, tipped up second video.

And I have modern cone speakers. I have also heard a similar tonal balance to mine in a system with CH Precision amps like in the second video.

***

But again, for the purpose of this discussion I am taking the sound of the videos, as heard over my laptop and headphones, at face value, which may or may not have any resemblance with the real system sound.

 

[Rhapsody]

I agree. Of course it’s all about personal preference. The interesting thing for me is just how much the sound has changed over time. And perhaps these two videos are not at all representative.
One topic of discussion in this thread is about increasing exposure and spreading the word. Videos are certainly being used to do that in all forms, here on this forum and over YouTube in general and people share these videos and it spreadthe word.

I don’t think people buy components or systems based on what they hear on videos. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that they should. However, stuff can be learned from watching these videos, and if something grabs your interest, the hope is you will pursue it further and actually hear something in person before you make a decision to purchase it. That is not so different from a glossy magazine review.

The industry does not seem to be utilizing system videos to increase exposure of the sound of these components and systems. Individuals are doing it and some influencers like Jay audio lab. The industry is using videos for interviews and documenting events but not for sound.

I think it would be pretty cool to hear a video of the sound of each of the rooms at Rhapsody for instance or of the sound of Steve’s system at the Horizon DAC launch event.

I used to be willing to do the videos of my systems - but then I compared listening to the videos that I made with what the experience was when sitting/listening in the room.

The experiences/sounds were drastically different. It's why I've stopped doing videos and actually that was one of the reasons that I pursued opening the five other RLR locations across the US. So people had more of an opportunity to hear what the systems really sound like.

On the flip side, I love watching videos I find it interesting for sure, but I have chosen not to represent what I do with them, it's a personal decision.

 

[bonzo75]

why are we comparing vintage vs contemporary systems on this thread again? bc Bonzo is biased to one? are we really to the state on WBF that we just throw random YT videos of systems no one has heard back at each other as gotcha? what a bunch of BS.

this is about the state of the contemporary high end and audio reviewing from Roy Gregory's think piece I thought.

These are not random videos. As I said, Having heard the X2S2 with Lamm, Dagostino Momentums, Spectral, and with Viva Stack and CH stack, and the XLF with Spectral and with VTL, outside show conditions, that is a fair representation. I have also put videos of Altec and other horn systems I have heard. I have put up a video of a cone system I like (Avalon), and have mentioned the other cone systems I like. I have given my written description, which is not always sufficient, so I back it up with videos as additional evidence. I have left out many videos that I think are NOT representative of either cones or horns.

Now, it is sad that an audiophile, instead of wondering ok, on video this sounds interesting, let me investigate it further, says hey, video representation sucks because it disagrees with my armchair view! I found altecs because I traveled to Bulgaria purely because I hadn't heard them, and then did a further tour of them. But I guess it is easier to not do it and just defend what we know without listening, and attack the concept of videos because that's easy.

 

[bonzo75]

No, this has nothing to do with that. My system sounds closer in full-bodied tonal balance to that horn video, but with greater treble extension. It sounds nothing like that thin and bleached-out sounding, tipped up second video.

And I have modern cone speakers. I have also heard a similar tonal balance to mine in a system with CH Precision amps like in the second video.

So you took videos of your system, and Ian's system, and compared the videos to this video?