State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial
- Thread starter Elliot G.
- Start date
Well I was half-joking
but several of his key themes are not correct in my opinion.
Bring back Wilkinson, Haddy, Wallace (the U-Boat detectors) and Fine and Cozart Fine and Lewis Layton.
Bring back minimalist microphone technique.
Bring back AAA.
1. Agree the 4Point with sapphire bearings is a fine arm. Others applaud the SME 3012R - not quite modernity. The printed arm ... you're on your own there.
4. The Classic Records and AP reissues primary value is in letting people affordably hear some amazing recordings that they would otherwise not if only originals were available. Not quite the sound quality of a mint original (eg, RCA, Mercury, etc.) but I still appreciate what they offer.
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We can quibble with some of the substantive elements of, and with some of the described speed and direction of some of the elements of, Roy's chronology, but I think his main points are correct.
1) I think Roy tripped himself unnecessarily by stating that "high-end audio . . . isn’t and certainly never started out as an industry in the accepted sense of the word," and that "high-end audio isn’t an industry [because] it possesses none of the structural or regulatory bodies that you normally find in large, international markets. There’s no professional governing body, no qualifications, no regulation, no standards and no training."
When does a new product or a group of products produced by one or more young companies ever constitute an "industry" from inception? The absence of a regulatory body or a trade industry association doesn't evidence the absence of an industry as much as, I think, it evidences the absence of a large and mature industry.
Later Roy acknowledges that "high-end audio stopped being a hobby and became an industry, at least for those in the upper echelons of manufacturing."
2) I agree with Lee that I do not see the evidence for the assertion that "established players [have failed] to significantly advance performance."
1) I think Roy tripped himself unnecessarily by stating that "high-end audio . . . isn’t and certainly never started out as an industry in the accepted sense of the word," and that "high-end audio isn’t an industry [because] it possesses none of the structural or regulatory bodies that you normally find in large, international markets. There’s no professional governing body, no qualifications, no regulation, no standards and no training."
When does a new product or a group of products produced by one or more young companies ever constitute an "industry" from inception? The absence of a regulatory body or a trade industry association doesn't evidence the absence of an industry as much as, I think, it evidences the absence of a large and mature industry.
Later Roy acknowledges that "high-end audio stopped being a hobby and became an industry, at least for those in the upper echelons of manufacturing."
2) I agree with Lee that I do not see the evidence for the assertion that "established players [have failed] to significantly advance performance."
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I'd be interested to understand what you are comparing these "better vinyl pressings" and "better masterings" to. 1-3 may be reasonable examples of incremental improvements in the technology used to play back vinyl LP's but from my experience I take issue with #4 in the vast majority of cases. (No I haven't heard Dream with Dean.)
In my experience an AAA classical or jazz pressing from the 50's to 70's is better than any reissue. I have specific examples if people want them. To generalize, I have found that at best a reissue tends to sound dynamically duller with poorer, less illuminated sound staging than an original. At worst, digital in the chain tends to be like a thin sheet of glass over the recording. That last is my wife’s phrasing not mine!
As we know, in many cases the original master (if it still exists at all) isn't made available for remastering so the reissues are usually working from 2nd or 3rd generation copies. This means the finished product is further from and inferior to the original master or it gets digitally “improved” /remastered. To play with Bonzo’s restaurant analogy, if the quality of the source ingredients in a *** restaurant is compromised the meal is very likely to disappoint.
To be clear I really do appreciate the better kit that is available. So what’s my point: improvements in vinyl playback have been compromised by a diminishing of the source material. You can make all the incremental improvements you like, and they will improve the fidelity to the record you play, but without being able to access good original records the ultimate quality of music reproduced is compromised by limitations in the recent pressing. Mastering chain quality and pressing machine technology can't put back what isn't on the source of the reissue.
Sorry Lee, I think #4 is incorrect.
While most carts and phonos are better today, and there are many good new tonearms (though FR, Ikeda, SAEC, SME are quite good and better than many modern ones), and there are many good new TTs including better ones, pressings is the one area there is only a degrading. Not only in sonic quality but also in the catalog. While Classic Records and AP are nice and make old performances easily accessible, and are sonically good unless compared to originals, they have a very small and inexhaustive catalog to cover classical music. I haven't done many jazz comparisons but I understand the difference is even greater between originals and reissues. The only reason to buy a reissue is cost, and if someone values lack of ticks and pops over all other qualities such as tone, bass, and dynamic range
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I think you mean exhaustible.
There is so much material that has not been reissued and many labels that have not been touched for vinyl reissue. Out of the Decca family alone there is Lyrita, Argo and L’Oiseau-Lyre. Unlike Hobson, Chassam doesn't seem to be a classical guy. If it was obscure jazz, blues or cajun he might do some in fancy packaging. Impex does a fine job with classical but minimal volume. Speakers Corner is okay. ORG (not ORG Music) can when they put their mind to it - not seen from them since 2019?
Basically, nothing! You’re both only listing gear you like that wasn’t the question.
You can still play a 50’s LP on any of your modern systems without any problems as well as playing a modern recording on a vintage system.
@Lee TechDas AirForce turntables aren’t air bearing they have a mechanical bearing with a platter floating on air for vertical lift, the design is exactly the same as 70’s Micro Seiki turntables. AF0s motor is from the 70’s too! You need to take a look at that mastering quality chain and pressing machine technology whatever that is. Vintage Neumann lathes are still the most coveted and many old presses are put back into service, there’s no technology in a new press it’s still the same hydraulics.
david
Yes it is a small catalog and while there are some good pieces, many are missed out and some just loud macro dynamic ones for audiophile system demo. Speakers corner and ORG are sonically much inferior to classic records. ERC is better than them and good pieces and performances but quite below original quality even though they try to replicate the tubed chain, ortofon lyrec etc. Too expensive. Proves that the recording engineers made a difference in addition to the equipment
On its own, depends on who are 'established players'. Not remembering that he named names, but he might have.
I did not go back to re-read but iirc his context was the established players of say 10 years ago. For example, that McIntosh/Sonus Faber/Audio Research consortium - weren't Wadia and Sumiko in there too?- the "Fine Sounds Group" kinda fell on its face. Remember the 'Fenice'? As much as I liked their gear when I was starting out, Conrad-Johnson is not the player they once were. Audioquest and Purist were established players in the cable genre. I"m sure others can come up with names currently not garnering large cult like forum threads. Not everyone is a present-day wunderkind like some of Roy's favorite Euro stars - Wadax, CH Precision, etc. Imo, the 'Glass-Ceiling' thing is more of a literary device (a straw dog?) than a reality - but it gives him something to play off of - and we are talking about his article.
Yeah ... industry ... it's a pretty loose term.
Playing older records today may be possible, a hurdle not mentioned here is that each recording may need a different correction requiring you to own a phono stage with adaptable correction for almost anything made prior to the sixties. (German labels used the DIN curve until well after RIAA was born).
My old redbook CD's (now stored digitally) can be used without a hiccup since I started using them, regardless of which system I'm using to store and reproduce the material the files remain in the same WAV format. Same with streaming, I cannot be bothered nor influence how the streaming service handles the backend as long as it sounds good at my end, and I choose with my ears. The availability of digital content is serving both the mid-fi or low-fi audience (I shudder when I hear a cell phone blasting some music) it's the user who in the end will decide what quality level of services he opts for.
The one major drawback streaming has is little breadth in older (mono) recordings and a sometimes wonky digitization of vinyl sources- I'm going to overcome by adding a TT. Which will then leave me with a need for an adjustable phono stage and the difficulty of sourcing original records. Access to niche material is pretty good, provided a quality recording in a reasonable format is available, IMO not much different than with Vinyl.
The industry, as everywhere else, will change. Companies that cannot differentiate themselves enough or show a good cost benefit ratio will fade away, new ones will emerge much everywhere else.
To me the snippet below is the key point made in the article, and it appears to be in line with how 'the market place' for many other things in life is evolving.
Dispensing with the distributor doesn’t imply the shedding of a complete margin/cost tier. Products still have to be shipped, supported, advertised and marketed. But it should signal an end to the mathematical escalation of prices imposed by the old, three-tier model.
At the upper end of the market, more and more customers will deal more closely with the manufacturers of the products they buy; more and more manufacturers will become increasingly involved in the installation and set up of their products; more and more often, the both manufacturers and customers will call on the experience and expertise of the emerging class of independent, set up specialists. It’s a whole new way of building a system, with a redistributed cost structure and responsibilities – but it’s also a sure route to significantly better sound.
Smaller new companies will emerge and do exist, they will likely struggle with visibility. Established brands will struggle to adapt, some will fade away some will emerge.
The challenge for the new model will be to gain visibility, for the old model to keep credibility. I think the 'writing press' with good reviewers has a place in all that as it's pretty much impossible to audition let alone select gear being created all over the globe.
Who knows, a hybrid model with direct sales and some larger 'distributors/retailers' in a few regions may well be what we end up with. Much as what I think I'm seeing in for example the car industry, which got shook up big time with the business model Tesla introduced, it took other manufacturers what ? -a good ten or more ?- years to respond to both the product and the business model in a meaningful way.
My old redbook CD's (now stored digitally) can be used without a hiccup since I started using them, regardless of which system I'm using to store and reproduce the material the files remain in the same WAV format. Same with streaming, I cannot be bothered nor influence how the streaming service handles the backend as long as it sounds good at my end, and I choose with my ears. The availability of digital content is serving both the mid-fi or low-fi audience (I shudder when I hear a cell phone blasting some music) it's the user who in the end will decide what quality level of services he opts for.
The one major drawback streaming has is little breadth in older (mono) recordings and a sometimes wonky digitization of vinyl sources- I'm going to overcome by adding a TT. Which will then leave me with a need for an adjustable phono stage and the difficulty of sourcing original records. Access to niche material is pretty good, provided a quality recording in a reasonable format is available, IMO not much different than with Vinyl.
The industry, as everywhere else, will change. Companies that cannot differentiate themselves enough or show a good cost benefit ratio will fade away, new ones will emerge much everywhere else.
To me the snippet below is the key point made in the article, and it appears to be in line with how 'the market place' for many other things in life is evolving.
Dispensing with the distributor doesn’t imply the shedding of a complete margin/cost tier. Products still have to be shipped, supported, advertised and marketed. But it should signal an end to the mathematical escalation of prices imposed by the old, three-tier model.
At the upper end of the market, more and more customers will deal more closely with the manufacturers of the products they buy; more and more manufacturers will become increasingly involved in the installation and set up of their products; more and more often, the both manufacturers and customers will call on the experience and expertise of the emerging class of independent, set up specialists. It’s a whole new way of building a system, with a redistributed cost structure and responsibilities – but it’s also a sure route to significantly better sound.
Smaller new companies will emerge and do exist, they will likely struggle with visibility. Established brands will struggle to adapt, some will fade away some will emerge.
The challenge for the new model will be to gain visibility, for the old model to keep credibility. I think the 'writing press' with good reviewers has a place in all that as it's pretty much impossible to audition let alone select gear being created all over the globe.
Who knows, a hybrid model with direct sales and some larger 'distributors/retailers' in a few regions may well be what we end up with. Much as what I think I'm seeing in for example the car industry, which got shook up big time with the business model Tesla introduced, it took other manufacturers what ? -a good ten or more ?- years to respond to both the product and the business model in a meaningful way.
The one key point is that LPs are no more a viable entry to music. Originals are either not available and where available super expensive. So reissues are fine but that is a small catalog.
Think about it. A guy like Larry, who has been collecting originals since 50s or 60s, has 15000 Deccas and EMIs, we consider that a wow in relative terms. Larry is well over 70, and Mike, who has been 59 for 12 years, and an audiophile for over 40 of them and spends a lot, has around maybe 10k LPs many of which are not originals. David would have around 10k. Big spenders like Tang today have a very, very small catalog despite focusing on growing it.
That leaves for most audiophiles the low priced represses, all those issued since 70s and onward. Some of these are ok, if and when you get to know which one.
But with streaming, install your streamer + dac, and voila, you have 15000+ at the flick of a button.
Just think about any one piece, e.g Beethoven Violin Concerto. If one wants to listen to it performed by Kogan, Oistrakh, Heifetz, Neveu, Milstein, Martzy, Ferras, Campoli, and some of the modern artists, most of the analog enthusiasts cannot do it. In fact no one except G can do it. Larry can't. And this is just one piece. To be able to do this, being a vinyl collector is not sufficient, you need to be an extreme vinyl collector, and have the OCD to organize and catalog things properly to reach out and play them when you feel like it.
On the other hand, this is very easily done with streaming. Now with digital in addition to Qobuz and your CDs and files you can download some good quality files as well that have been sourced from tapes, or Harmonia Mundi files, etc.
Does not matter if it is sonically superior, given how good digital is, LP for 99% of the people is just the cream. So those who have both can do both, listen to the music and occasionally up their sonic playback for the few quality LPs they have, but those who only pride themselves on analog and ignore digital should really not be saying they are in this for music, they are in this for the sound only and bragging rights, the music they have access to is highly limited.
ps: It is also counterintuitively true that those with analog discover better music/performances. Still, both are required.
Think about it. A guy like Larry, who has been collecting originals since 50s or 60s, has 15000 Deccas and EMIs, we consider that a wow in relative terms. Larry is well over 70, and Mike, who has been 59 for 12 years, and an audiophile for over 40 of them and spends a lot, has around maybe 10k LPs many of which are not originals. David would have around 10k. Big spenders like Tang today have a very, very small catalog despite focusing on growing it.
That leaves for most audiophiles the low priced represses, all those issued since 70s and onward. Some of these are ok, if and when you get to know which one.
But with streaming, install your streamer + dac, and voila, you have 15000+ at the flick of a button.
Just think about any one piece, e.g Beethoven Violin Concerto. If one wants to listen to it performed by Kogan, Oistrakh, Heifetz, Neveu, Milstein, Martzy, Ferras, Campoli, and some of the modern artists, most of the analog enthusiasts cannot do it. In fact no one except G can do it. Larry can't. And this is just one piece. To be able to do this, being a vinyl collector is not sufficient, you need to be an extreme vinyl collector, and have the OCD to organize and catalog things properly to reach out and play them when you feel like it.
On the other hand, this is very easily done with streaming. Now with digital in addition to Qobuz and your CDs and files you can download some good quality files as well that have been sourced from tapes, or Harmonia Mundi files, etc.
Does not matter if it is sonically superior, given how good digital is, LP for 99% of the people is just the cream. So those who have both can do both, listen to the music and occasionally up their sonic playback for the few quality LPs they have, but those who only pride themselves on analog and ignore digital should really not be saying they are in this for music, they are in this for the sound only and bragging rights, the music they have access to is highly limited.
ps: It is also counterintuitively true that those with analog discover better music/performances. Still, both are required.
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the last few days i've been exploring Jordi Savall recordings. i've enjoyed them for multiple decades but they never sounded like this. wow. there are seemingly hundreds. it's just such a wide selection of wonderful different types of music, lovingly played and recorded. they are all digital recordings. whether redbook, high rez PCM or my dsd files.
how could a serious music lover who even thinks about classical or world music not want to enjoy these? and they are at my fingertips at such a high level of performance. you can pooh-pooh streaming but it's just such a silly point of view. it only means you have not yet had the opportunity to really hear it.
play track 3 of this one....."Fandango".....wow!!! a dream listen on the Wadax.
how could a serious music lover who even thinks about classical or world music not want to enjoy these? and they are at my fingertips at such a high level of performance. you can pooh-pooh streaming but it's just such a silly point of view. it only means you have not yet had the opportunity to really hear it.
play track 3 of this one....."Fandango".....wow!!! a dream listen on the Wadax.
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555: Curzon "Schubert The Trout Quintet" London BB CS 6090 NM/VG++ | eBay
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London CS6116 Glazunov:The Seasons Ballet/Wolff,1M/1M,ffss,BB,NM | eBay
Stampers: 1M/1M ffss UK Decca pressing. Cover condition: NM-, blueback. (about 5 or 6 single records). For orders over 4 lbs. (about 4 single records). For orders over 3 lbs.
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