State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[Kingrex]

This is kind of an odd thread. Its almost like people are saying, you don't have a high quality system unless I approve of the parts. Maybe you all need to settle on a list of required components and anyone who falls putside is just a retail enthusiast. Owe wait, we have TAS and Stereophile. Didn't they do that for us.

 

[Al M.]

This is kind of an odd thread. Its almost like people are saying, you don't have a high quality system unless I approve of the parts. Maybe you all need to settle on a list of required components and anyone who falls putside is just a retail enthusiast. Owe wait, we have TAS and Stereophile. Didn't they do that for us.

Yes, it's pretty funny. Dogma abounds.

 

[bonzo75]

Did young people ever buy high end audio, mostly they are just starting to earn money and have other areas requiring attention (housing, kids etc) to spend their budgets on high end audio.

I suspect that high end audio is much like fine dining, you do not see many youngsters in a ** or *** Michelin level restaurant yet those are nowhere near at risk of going out of business judged by the reservation schedule.

People have anywhere between 21 to 42 meals a week. How many in Michelin restaurants as a ratio? Compared to buying 1 or 2 amplifiers? Also, never trust a tyre company to rate food. Zagat is better

Ps: Had booked in Jan 2020 for a table at Core by Clare Smith, a Michelin IIIs in London, for April 2020. That time hadn't for a table for months. Lockdown started in March 2020 and the table got cancelled. Finally got a chance to eat there last Friday. But, well, meh food.

 

[PeterA]

WHAT EXACTLY HAS CHANGED WITH VINYL PLAYBACK SINCE THE 50's?

david

David, The software. I learned this from you. Records have actually gotten worse and less available with fewer new titles. Thicker deader 45 RPM vinyl “audiophile” reissues and digital based vinyl pressings. Bring back the better vinyl formulations, standard weights, and analogue recording techniques resulting in the life and ambiance heard on the originals and older pressings. I’d love to see those techniques used to make new recordings of new music. Knowledge and economics seem to stand in the way.

 

[MarcelNL]

yeah I was only trying to make a comparison between young people buying high end audio gear and/or high end food, I for one expect that 'the industry' is in no real danger other than when they price their own products out of reach. I doubt that a deacade or two ago there were more 'youngsters' making large investments in high end audio gear than currently or in the near future simply because they lack the budget and I suspect that critical listening is an acquired taste much like some food types.

As with high end audio gear a high end meal can dissappoint if it's not 'your cup of tea', I've heard audio sets valued at dazzling amounts yet I would not want to have that set in my house for free.

 

[Solypsa]

... Knowledge and economics seem to stand in the way.

Knowledge is more abundantly dispersed now than ever ( internet ) but the work ethic and direct chain of master to apprentice is what is gone, speaking generally.

If *** restaurants die it will be due to a lack of young bodies willing to endure the rigors of that life as, or trained correctly in the ways of, cooks or servers.

Vinyl? Sure the pressing plant infrastructure is extremely delicate and old but ( as has been discussed a lot ) there is no longer the chain of mentorship from people that made those epic analog recordings.

Anyway the blog post behind the original point of this thread seems to fall into a 'trap' promoted within the industrial ( and digital ) revolution: 'things get better, they get cheaper, they become more available'... Why must all current products offer 'radical new technology'?

 

[ddk]

David, The software. I learned this from you. Records have actually gotten worse and less available with fewer new titles. Thicker deader 45 RPM vinyl “audiophile” reissues and digital based vinyl pressings. Bring back the better vinyl formulations, standard weights, and analogue recording techniques resulting in the life and ambiance heard on the originals and older pressings. I’d love to see those techniques used to make new recordings of new music. Knowledge and economics seem to stand in the way.

It's not the standards for vinyl playback that have changed, it's still the same RIAA curves, same rpm standards and the exact same electromechanical interface. Tonearm design, plinths, formulations etc. are variations not change of governing principles as is happening for streaming. 44/16 CD standard was set from the start for CD medium, it hasn't changed. Upsampling, converting, downsampling etc. are tone controls Redbook CD was and is forever 44/16 and PCM, datafiles and retrieval principles AFAIK are also fixed. Streaming has some protocols but no standards at this point even the basics like the players and network protocols are constantly changing. This is all fine and it's a great tool for access my point is that as it stands sonically even at it's best it's good midfi at best and still far from high end.

david

 

[Kingrex]

I my point is that as it stands sonically even at it's best it's good midfi at best and still far from high end.

david

The problem with a comment like this is I have sat in front of what people call good hifi and I would never purchase it. If it was free, I would pass and get what I like.

 

[ddk]

The problem with a comment like this is I have sat in front of what people call good hifi and I would never purchase it. If it was free, I would pass and get what I like.

Why is it a problem?

david

 

[PeterA]

It's not the standards for vinyl playback that have changed, it's still the same RIAA curves, same rpm standards and the exact same electromechanical interface. Tonearm design, plinths, formulations etc. are variations not change of governing principles as is happening for streaming. 44/16 CD standard was set from the start for CD medium, it hasn't changed. Upsampling, converting, downsampling etc. are tone controls Redbook CD was and is forever 44/16 and PCM, datafiles and retrieval principles AFAIK are also fixed. Streaming has some protocols but no standards at this point even the basics like the players and network protocols are constantly changing. This is all fine and it's a great tool for access my point is that as it stands sonically even at it's best it's good midfi at best and still far from high end.

david

Yes David I agree. And I understood your earlier point. I was just having a little bit of fun with the “advancements“ of vinyl records. The standards were set long ago and the bar was set very high with great levels of quality and performance.

I would even argue, accurately or not, that your AS2000 turntable represents the current state of the art for vinyl playback and it is basically an improved implementation of existing technology just taken to an extreme level. It’s quality and performance are unlikely to be surpassed for a very long time, if ever.

 

[ddk]

Yes David I agree. And I understood your earlier point. I was just having a little bit of fun with the “advancements“ of vinyl records. The standards were set long ago and the bar was set very high with great levels of quality and performance.

I would even argue, accurately or not, that your AS2000 turntable represents the current state of the art for vinyl playback and it is basically an improved implementation of existing technology just taken to an extreme level. It’s quality and performance are unlikely to be surpassed for a very long time, if ever.

You're correct there's nothing new in AS2000 or any other top end tt made today, just some engineering and machining improvements but basically the same thing. That's what SOTA should be, a finished design!

david

 

[wil]

This is all fine and it's a great tool for access my point is that as it stands sonically even at it's best it's good midfi at best and still far from high end.

david

I think you like to make these statement of faux authority just to rile people up like me, lol. All the more so that you never preface or modify these statement with "in my experience or opinion." They are just handed down like the truth carved in stone tablets.

I respect that your opinions on much to do with audio carry weight. But to me, your statements on the current state of digital streaming sound like they surely come from a lack of exposure. Maybe you've only heard streamed music at shows and not in a well developed system in a well set up room.

 

[ddk]

I think you like to make these statement of faux authority just to rile people up like me, lol. All the more so that you never preface or modify these statement with "in my experience or opinion." They are just handed down like the truth carved in stone tablets.

I respect that your opinions on much to do with audio carry weight. But to me, your statements on the current state of digital streaming sound like they surely come from a lack of exposure. Maybe you've only heard streamed music at shows and not in a well developed system in a well set up room.

I'm writing in first person so it isn't anyone else's thoughts and if you go to my OP I did insert IMO & IME just for someone like you. I don't care if you disagree but why are you making it personal, same with Mike L. Neither one of you have anything more than an opinion or you wouldn't make it personal!

david

 

[wil]

I'm writing in first person so it isn't anyone else's thoughts and if you go to my OP I did insert IMO & IME just for someone like you. I don't care if you disagree but why are you making it personal, same with Mike L. Neither one of you have anything more than an opinion or you wouldn't make it personal!

david

When you say all I have is an opinion, that's not personal? It's certainly dismissive. I think I'm arguing with you about the content of your statements and the way they are presented. I respect, as I say, you and your position in the Audio world, but I feel compelled to challenge you on this. Maybe I shouldn't let myself be triggered by it -- that's on me!

 

[ddk]

When you say all I have is an opinion, that's not personal? It's certainly dismissive. I think I'm arguing with you about the content of your statements and the way they are presented. I respect, as I say, you and your position in the Audio world, but I feel compelled to challenge you on this. Maybe I shouldn't let myself be triggered by it -- that's on me!

So you don't have an opinion? Is this your idea of respectful arguing?

I think you like to make these statement of faux authority just to rile people up like me, lol.

You're welcome to challenge anything I say but without making it personal.

david

 

[Elliot G.]

Man did this thread get hijacked into SO many things that have nothing to do with Roy's think piece.

 

[Al M.]

Man did this thread get hijacked into SO many things that have nothing to do with Roy's think piece.

That's the way discussions among humans usually go.

So what? Why complain about the expected, even inevitable? It's the internet, folks.

 

[microstrip]

WHAT EXACTLY HAS CHANGED WITH VINYL PLAYBACK SINCE THE 50's?

david

Sound quality of vinyl has approached closer to the master tape sound. Although my experience with vintage turntables is limited, the sound of the SME 30/2 or the TechDas1P is closer to my Studer A80 than the EMT927 or the Garrard 401.

 

[Lee]

WHAT EXACTLY HAS CHANGED WITH VINYL PLAYBACK SINCE THE 50's?

david

1. Better tonearms. Examples: VPI 3D printed arms, Kuzma’s new sapphire arm.

2. Better bearings, most notably imho the TechDAS air bearings.

3. Better cartridges, most notably the “New Angle” designs from Lyra like the Etna Lambda.

4. Better vinyl pressing and, depending on title, better masterings. Mastering chain quality and pressing machine technology has improved and many of the Analogue Production titles such as Dream with Dean are good examples of that.

 

[Lee]

David, The software. I learned this from you. Records have actually gotten worse and less available with fewer new titles. Thicker deader 45 RPM vinyl “audiophile” reissues and digital based vinyl pressings. Bring back the better vinyl formulations, standard weights, and analogue recording techniques resulting in the life and ambiance heard on the originals and older pressings. I’d love to see those techniques used to make new recordings of new music. Knowledge and economics seem to stand in the way.

I think it’s a mixed bag of sorts. Many of the new vinyl formulations are quite good. Big yes on the analog recording techniques of old. Those Al Schmitt recordings of Mancini sound pretty spectacular!