State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[Al M.]

Some consider me a deplorable, and I guess now I’m a detractor. I can list and describe specifics.



It is pretty difficult to define “better“ in such a subjective hobby. And describing something as sounding natural seems confusing to many. Does “more realistic“ suffice? Why don’t I just describe what I hear and the reader can decide.

1. SME 3012R and SME V-12: The former presents bass that is full, hollow, with overtones and nuance. The latter has tight, fast, solid, punchy bass that lacks nuance. There is a sameness to the notes. The modern arm is highly damped, resulting in a lack of resolution and overall grayness. It sounds dull and lacks life relative to the vintage arm.

2. Micro Seiki SX 8000 II and SME Model 30/12:
The former is more dynamic and resolving with A better sense of flow. He seems to have a lower noise for despite the lack of suspension. Base is more extended and more defined. As with the arm example above, I hear a greater range of presentation from my record collection with the vintage turntable. It seems more transparent to the recording by overlaying less of its own sound and character to the presentation.

3. Mitsubishi Diatone and Magico Q3: The former is much more efficient, more dynamic and open sounding. Can be driven by SET amplifier. Less restricted sound. Much more lively and resolving. Lower bass extension.

I have written extensively about modern cables and power cords and outlets. I have owned two power conditioners. Suffice it to say that I prefer basic industrial solutions for lack of enhancement and a more realistic and believable sound.

Finally, when I listen to digital which is rare, I prefer CD to streaming.

I suppose you could criticize all of this as a subjective opinion that is unverifiable. You can’t say the detractors don’t share specific examples. This is hardly empty talk. We all have our opinions and experience. We’ve all heard what we have heard. I don’t think it’s a matter of people trying to convince each other about what they prefer. It is about challenging blanket statements such as technology is inevitably marching forward resulting in superior sound. All you have to do is look around at the many different approaches to the hobby to understand that not everyone agrees with that.

Thanks, Peter. As for the speaker comparison:

What about accuracy of timbre and lack of tonal coloration?

What exactly do you mean by the term "resolving"?

 

[bonzo75]

To be fair, the Zellatons had something interesting around the coherence and liveliness of the sound...

Zellaton sound great with FM

FM Acoustics, Zellaton, Stenheim – Audio Arts – Zero Distortion

zero-distortion.org

Steinheim also sound excellent with Thrax Heros hybrid

 

[PeterA]

Thanks, Peter. As for the speaker comparison:

What about accuracy of timbre and lack of tonal coloration?

What exactly do you mean by the term "resolving"?

I wrote about how I remember them sounding different. The attributes you mention seemed fairly similar. That in and of itself says a great deal. The fact that I would be happy with either of the speakers and that the modern expensive one is not clearly superior, tells me something. The fact that one can be driven by a superior amplifier means a lot to me.

Others have made the point, and it is worth repeating in my opinion, that the fact that we can even discuss the differences between the technologies and that one is not considered clearly superior, and the other obsolete, is an indication that the new has not replaced the old. They can still be compared and one preferred over the other.

The term “resolving“ generally means the ability to provide more information. At least that’s how I see it. The Magico speaker needed very expensive solid-state amplifiers to sound as though it was alive. The Mitsubishi could be powered by some well chosen $500 vintage integrated amplifier and sound fantastic.

 

[morricab]

Zellaton sound great with FM

FM Acoustics, Zellaton, Stenheim – Audio Arts – Zero Distortion

zero-distortion.org

Steinheim also sound excellent with Thrax Heros hybrid

View attachment 92483

Heard STenheim sound absolutely horrible with Neukomm (Swiss SS brand) at a recent show...I know they can sound good but it was drier than the Sahara desert at this show thanks to the electronics.

 

[MarcelNL]

IMHO there is a lot of what Germans call 'Verschlimmbesserung' going on in audio, problems being solved by adding more technology each with their own (potential or not) problems yet getting further away from the key design.

Funny I hear nobody about gear designed by some of the 'seemingly out of the box' thinkers like Yamamura, Kaneda or Hiraga (list is much longer). My Le Monstre build was my introduction to serious amps, Hiraga designed it a.o. to overcome one of the major flaws in transistor amp design; lack of stored energy in the PSU. Not an earth shattering find but someone thinking about the potential flaws and seeking to resolve them.

 

[MarcelNL]

Heard STenheim sound absolutely horrible with Neukomm (Swiss SS brand) at a recent show...I know they can sound good but it was drier than the Sahara desert at this show thanks to the electronics.

problem with that is that anything can be made to sound horrible, the negatives usually hold little information for me about gear the positives do tell that the gear has it and the folks know how to let it shine. That goes for vintage gear as well, last year we listened to the Klangfilm Euronor junior for a few days and it was not until the last day that the system started to sound 'right'..

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thats one sh!te list of speakers you got there. Personally, I wouldnt consider any of them suitable for music reproduction.

I don't understand this reply. You seem to be answering a different question.

I merely was providing examples of loudspeakers made today using advanced materials which are not "mainly air inside."

Now, onto your post, please tell us the systems, associated components and contexts in which you have auditioned the Rockport Lyra and the Wilson Audio XVX and the Zellaton Statement. I would like to understand clearly and specifically why you don't consider any of these three current production loudspeakers "suitable for music production."

 

[PeterA]

I don't understand this reply. You seem to be answering a different question.

I merely was providing examples of loudspeakers made today using advanced materials which are not "mainly air inside."

Now, onto your post, please tell us the systems, associated components and contexts in which you have auditioned the Rockport Lyra and the Wilson Audio XVX.

Ron, I do not see a claim by you that these advanced materials result in better sound. Did I miss it, or are you not making that suggestion? The claim with which I agree is that some box speaker cabinets are getting stiffer and more damped. Some prefer this sound, others do not. I read jespera's comment and think he falls in the latter group.

To the "air inside" comment. Magico did claim that the new construction methods and materials in their M series, M2 and M6, actually do allow for more air inside the box, ie, more internal volume, precisely because they don't need to take up interior space with the metal frame structure inside their Q series speakers. The result is smaller exterior dimensions, or same size with presumably more efficiency.

 

[Ron Resnick]

problem with that is that anything can be made to sound horrible

+1

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I do not see a claim by you that these advanced materials result in better sound. Did I miss it, or are you not making that suggestion? The claim with which I agree is that some box speaker cabinets are getting stiffer and more damped. Some prefer this sound, others do not. I read jespera's comment and think he falls in the latter group.

To the "air inside" comment. Magico did claim that the new construction methods and materials in their M series, M2 and M6, actually do allow for more air inside the box, ie, more internal volume, precisely because they don't need to take up interior space with the metal frame structure inside their Q series speakers. The result is smaller exterior dimensions, or same size with presumably more efficiency.

You did not see such a claim, because I am not making the suggestion that advanced materials (necessarily or objectively) result in better sound.* I merely was providing examples of loudspeakers made today using advanced materials which are not "mainly air inside."

*Separately, for audiophiles who like subjectively the sonic artifacts of "black backgrounds" and "pinpoint imaging" and a "fast sound" I think the use in dynamic driver loudspeaker cabinets of advanced materials to achieve heroic inertness and damping is desirable for these folks. Audiophiles who like this type of sound will view technological advancements in materials as sonic improvements. Audiophiles who do not like this type of sound will not view technological advancements in materials as sonic improvements.

 

[Al M.]

I wrote about how I remember them sounding different. The attributes you mention seemed fairly similar. That in and of itself says a great deal. The fact that I would be happy with either of the speakers and that the modern expensive one is not clearly superior, tells me something. The fact that one can be driven by a superior amplifier means a lot to me.

Others have made the point, and it is worth repeating in my opinion, that the fact that we can even discuss the differences between the technologies and that one is not considered clearly superior, and the other obsolete,is an indication that the new has not replaced the old.

The term “resolving“ generally means the ability to provide more information. At least that’s how I see it. The magical speaker needed very expensive solid-state amplifiers to sound as though it was alive. The Mitsubishi could be powered by some well chosen $500 vintage integrated amplifier and sound fantastic.

Thanks. What do you mean by this?
"The term “resolving“ generally means the ability to provide more information."

What is "more information"? About what? Timbral micro-detail, separation of instruments, dynamics, ambience? Something else?

 

[PeterA]

You did not see such a claim, because I am not making the point that advanced materials result in better sound.* I merely was providing examples of loudspeakers made today using advanced materials which are not "mainly air inside."

*Separately, for audiophiles who like subjectively the sonic artifacts of "black backgrounds" and "pinpoint imaging" and a "fast sound" I think the use in dynamic driver loudspeaker cabinets of advanced materials to achieve heroic inertness and damping is desirable for these folks.

Thanks for the clarification, Ron. I agree with your second comment, except for "fast sound". I actually find damped speakers with heroic new materials to sound a bit slower, especially if they are inefficient and tough loads. I don't know if that is from the cabinet or driver per se, or the massive SS amps needed to drive them. I used to think my old Magico Q3s were dynamic until I heard high efficiency horns and cones.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Heard STenheim sound absolutely horrible with Neukomm (Swiss SS brand) at a recent show...I know they can sound good but it was drier than the Sahara desert at this show thanks to the electronics.

Brad,

Why make it so complicated?

In general you don't like solid-state electronics. Why not just post: In general I don't like solid-state electronics?

 

[Lee]

You did not see such a claim, because I am not making the suggestion that advanced materials (necessarily or objectively) result in better sound.* I merely was providing examples of loudspeakers made today using advanced materials which are not "mainly air inside."

*Separately, for audiophiles who like subjectively the sonic artifacts of "black backgrounds" and "pinpoint imaging" and a "fast sound" I think the use in dynamic driver loudspeaker cabinets of advanced materials to achieve heroic inertness and damping is desirable for these folks. Audiophiles who like this type of sound will view technological advancements in materials as sonic improvements. Audiophiles who do not like this type of sound will not view technological advancements in materials as sonic improvements.

I think this second paragraph is a good explanation…but I also think the lack of ringing and resonance leads to higher resolution and better dynamics.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks for the clarification, Ron. I agree with your second comment, except for "fast sound". I actually find damped speakers with heroic new materials to sound a bit slower, especially if they are inefficient and tough loads. I don't know if that is from the cabinet or driver per se, or the massive SS amps needed to drive them. I used to think my old Magico Q3s were dynamic until I heard high efficiency horns and cones.

I understand exactly what you're talking about. And I agree with you. My expression "fast sound" refers to a very specific artifact which is different from what you are talking about (and different from what you reasonably are assuming I am talking about).

“FAST”-SOUNDING SPEAKERS

At Munich High End 2016 I heard for the first time Zellaton Statement loudspeakers and Magico M-Project loudspeakers. Previously I had heard Tidal Audio La Assoluta loudspeakers in a friend’s home.

I hear each of these speakers as being extremely transparent (especially considering they employ dynamic drivers), “fast”-sounding and just a bit “tizzy” or “zingy” or “menthol”-sounding. It is hard to know what word to use to describe the very "fast” sound which such speakers produce. It is not in any way a traditional brightness or edginess (such as was produced by the Wilson Audio metal dome tweeter for many years until Wilson’s recent switch to a soft dome tweeter in the XLF, the Alexia and the Alexx). But it is a characteristic which is noticeable, to me, from the members of this genre of speakers.

The transparency of which these very fast-sounding, dynamic driver speakers are capable is very impressive but, to my ears, that transparency comes at the cost of a bit of naturalness or "musicality" to the sound. The fact that I am aware of this “fast” sound as a discrete characteristic tells me that it is not the type of sound I personally, subjectively, prefer. If a speaker has some characteristic which makes me notice that characteristic and identify it, then I am not engaged in, and lost in, the music. I have learned that, for whatever reason, this genre of speakers just does not allow me to become emotionally connected to the music.

To be crystal clear I am not suggesting that Magico or Tidal Audio or Zellaton speakers are doing anything objectively wrong. I am saying only that, to my ears, subjectively I do not care for that hyper-fast sound. People who like that transparent, detailed and very fast sound (and many people do, which is why Magico is so popular and Tidal Audio and Zellaton are so revered), will have no idea what I'm talking about, and they simply are enthralled with the transparency and openness of such speakers. I completely understand and appreciate that (differing) preference. That is what makes this hobby subjective.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think this second paragraph is a good explanation…but I also think the lack of ringing and resonance leads to higher resolution and better dynamics.

Yes! I should have put "higher resolution" on that list!

I think the inertness and damping achieved by advanced materials leads to higher resolution in those loudspeakers.

 

[Lee]

So much under goes on, reviewers must make a huge amount of money if they can have in their home turntables at 100K, speakers to match and these reviewers always drop the amount of money their gear is, I make really good money but 100K or 50K turntables are not in my cards that is for sure, or the 50K speakers to go with the 50K amps and preamps. But some key reviewers have the ability to have them in their systems long-term and some turn and sell them for 100% profit. Old days in reviewers are gone, now sales tools for the manufacture and when boomers go this hobby goes with it, and that is a fact which is why so much is market now at outranges prices, make the money while you can I guess.

First, most reviewers are writing as a second job. Having accommodation pricing is a perk but it doesn’t allow reviewers to have six-figure tables unless the other job pays well. Some of the gear that reviewers have are prototypes and not production units as well.

Second, hifi has been growing and we are seeing lots of younger people enter the hobby. YouTube and other digital channels are helping that along. TAS and hifi+ are seeing growth in print and digital subscribers.

Third, prices have increased due primarily to two factors: big increases in parts and manufacturing costs and the emergence of an ultra-luxury customer segment which is the same thing happening in other categories like watches, cars, handmade shoes, handmade suits, and other luxury items. Possibly, there is a third factor: the huge amount of easy money in the economy.

 

[rbbert]

Why not post the links here? I am not going to spend hours trying to find them on AudioCiricle. I am open to being wrong but need to read the studies to see what you are talking about. From what you have written so far, it isn’t obvious I am wrong given I am saying that a correlation can be made that would help design better products. You are (I think) arguing about what population would be served by this.

i would think it is obvious that this forum is not really a place to learn, it is a place to convince everyone else your opinions are "right" by repetitively stating them in slightly different ways. Nevertheless, here are some links relating only to auditory acuity, not perception. Difference in processing sensory inputs is most extensively studied in people with autism; even with better awareness today of high-functioning autistics, most adults now in middle age who might qualify are not identified as such.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/47/23753

Extended high-frequency audiometry in healthy adults with different age groups - Journal of Otolaryngology - Head & Neck Surgery

Background It was well-documented that extended high-frequency (EHF, above 8 kHz) hearing test could be more sensitive comparing with the conventional measurement on frequency below 8 kHz, regarding the early prediction of auditory damage in certain population. However, hardly any age-specific...

journalotohns.biomedcentral.com

https://pub.dega-akustik.de/ICA2019/data/articles/000295.pdf

Benefits of Extended High-Frequency Audiometry for Everyone : The Hearing Journal

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

(PDF) Functional Changes in the Human Auditory Cortex in Ageing

PDF | Hearing loss, presbycusis, is one of the most common sensory declines in the ageing population. Presbycusis is characterised by a deterioration in... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[morricab]

Brad,

Why make it so complicated?

In general you don't like solid-state electronics. Why not just post: In general I don't like solid-state electronics?

Because, there is "not too bad", "not so good" and "horrible". This was in the last category. A friend of mine has a Plinius Class A SS amp (SA125 mk?) that would fall into the "not too bad" category, meaning I don't run screaming from the room. Still, he also has an Ayon Helios (that he got from me) that once he went back to it he told me that it was a bit like "ahhhh".

 

[Ron Resnick]

First, most reviewers are writing as a second job. Having accommodation pricing is a perk but it doesn’t allow reviewers to have six-figure tables unless the other job pays well. Some of the gear that reviewers have are prototypes and not production units as well.

Second, hifi has been growing and we are seeing lots of younger people enter the hobby. YouTube and other digital channels are helping that along. TAS and hifi+ are seeing growth in print and digital subscribers.

Third, prices have increased due primarily to two factors: big increases in parts and manufacturing costs and the emergence of an ultra-luxury customer segment which is the same thing happening in other categories like watches, cars, handmade shoes, handmade suits, and other luxury items. Possibly, there is a third factor: the huge amount of easy money in the economy.

This is a patient and thoughtful reply. I did not have the patience to decipher, to unpack and to tackle the post to which you responded.