State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[tima]

Perhaps it is just me, ...

I suspect you're right.

 

[rbbert]

I suspect you're right.

I doubt it...

 

[tima]

It sounds interesting and by apparent experts, but I balked at the price at least the ebook version is only $100US

College textbook pricing. Look offline.

Or look at used. Lots of used hardback editions can be relatively inexpensive, sometimes less money than soft bound. Easy to search by 10 or 13 digit ISBN.

Consider this example rated very good:

9781138554825 - Loudspeakers: for Music Recording and Reproduction Audio Engineering Society Presents by Newell, Philip; Holland, Keith, Used - AbeBooks

Loudspeakers: For Music Recording and Reproduction (Audio Engineering Society Presents) by Newell, Philip; Holland, Keith and a great selection of related books, art and collectibles available now at AbeBooks.com.

www.abebooks.com

Took me maybe 20 seconds to find this from the citation. AbesBooks is an aggregator of many sources. I've bought from them several times with success. Known booksellers are generally adept at accurate grading.

 

[wil]

Until it's sad and boring. Same thing happened when we discussed 'natural sound'. Then we had whining about the natural sound crowd. Despite efforts to encourage explications of alternative philosophies or basis of preference, that was not forthcoming. I suppose if you have no guides or principles there is nothing to defend and what's left is to either say nothing or to attack other's points of view.

I wouldn't characterize the pushback against the "natural sound" thread as "whining." Instead, maybe consider why was there was so much pushback?

To me, Natural Sound, in this context, has come across as more of a divisive, quasi-religious marketing term. I believe it's a term that shouldn't be co-opted. Who doesn't seek a natural sounding reproduction of music from their electronics? It's a quest, with different paths, always on an unreachable horizon.

For those that are seeking "artificial sound" from their systems, that's another story.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

the 'negative' reaction to the 'natural sound' had/has to do with the choice of using such a generally positive widely applied term and then inferring that it required a somewhat narrow approach (casting suggestions that other approaches were not natural).....which also involved a polarizing mentor (by association, maybe not actively) amping up the angst about it. the passion and focus of the author doubled down the effect. then once started it had to then be continually defended as righteous......digging deeper and deeper.

well intentioned but ultimately not comfortable for anyone. words matter. the forum narrative result was not what was originally desired i assume.

 

[Elliot G.]

It’s easy to ignore the horn chat although someone surprisingly brought it up on the new moderator thread for some inexorable reason. We can go back to the state of the industry epitomized by the incredible SOTA Wadax DAC that took up lots of discussion about a month ago.

Edit for humor: The horn tribe chat is “transitory”.

Yes but the Wadax talk happened in the Wadax thread. isn't that how it is supposed to happen?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Graham, no one asks anyone to refrain from discussing their audio passions. Yet please let me point you to this post (#1,478).

Al I wouldn’t expect you to be anything other than trying to be reasonable or that you would work to closing the discussion down at all, you’ve always engaged actively in these discussions.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I wouldn't characterize the pushback against the "natural sound" thread as "whining." Instead, maybe consider why was there was so much pushback?

To me, Natural Sound, in this context, has come across as more of a divisive, quasi-religious marketing term. I believe it's a term that shouldn't be co-opted. Who doesn't seek a natural sounding reproduction of music from their electronics? It's a quest, with different paths, always on an unreachable horizon.

For those that are seeking "artificial sound" from their systems, that's another story.

Thanks Wil, you're backing up very much the comments I made at the time. I very much asked the same Q, who here doesn't aim for a natural sound. I'm afraid the response I got was an invite to discuss "my" natural sound on my system thread. The inclusiveness was overwhelming for such a seemingly open invite to discuss, compare and contrast.

 

[Kingrex]

Maybe the thread title should be changed to State Of The Forum.

 

[christoph]

Yes, it's becoming toxic when one group of people claims absolute superiority of their approach. It's not that all in that camp do it -- you certainly and some others don't -- but a trend is unmistakable. Yes, it is toxic.

As soon as "they", "camp", "group" and similar expressions are being adressed, it is waaayyy too late for a reasonable and constructive discussion

 

[microstrip]

I suspect you're right.

Curious I am sure you are the only one suspecting it ...

 

[bonzo75]

the 'negative' reaction to the 'natural sound' had/has to do with the choice of using such a generally positive widely applied term and then inferring that it required a somewhat narrow approach (casting suggestions that other approaches were not natural).....which also involved a polarizing mentor (by association, maybe not actively) amping up the angst about it. the passion and focus of the author doubled down the effect. then once started it had to then be continually defended as righteous......digging deeper and deeper.

While that did happen, do you have people on the other side who have been as bad or worse in some of these discussions? As someone in the community who is respected, if you counter these 2 or 3 people when they become unfair/toxic it will ease out.

As long as we back our own side (including staying silent) the problem gets worse. Please note that despite being considered a proponent of horns I have said my thing against the continuous natural sound and hifi language preaching on those threads. So, while I understand where your agitation comes from, if you could also cool down those who just spew toxic statements from the cones community, it will help cool things down. Keep in mind that given your status you are an unofficial moderator

 

[andromedaaudio]

" The state of the industry " lol

Grumpy , no humour come to mind , no wonder the clientele is shrinking

 

[Mike Lavigne]

While that did happen, do you have people on the other side who have been as bad or worse in some of these discussions? As someone in the community who is respected, if you counter these 2 or 3 people when they become unfair/toxic it will ease out.

As long as we back our own side (including staying silent) the problem gets worse. Please note that despite being considered a proponent of horns I have said my thing against the continuous natural sound and hifi language preaching on those threads. So, while I understand where your agitation comes from, if you could also cool down those who just spew toxic statements from the cones community, it will help cool things down. Keep in mind that given your status you are an unofficial moderator

au contraire, me posturing/cajoling in an attempt at herding cats, will not improve the situation. i don't see it as a moderation issue. it's action/reaction on topic. sure; too much both ways plenty of time. but that's what we all signed up for. these things have to work themselves out organically or not.

sigh. double sigh.

Peter can't really move away from his position either way for various reasons (the conflict between wanting to relieve the stress, and loyalty to the idea....such is life sometimes). so we are stuck. it will likely continue to be a sticking point. and maybe it should be. it's not quite right. it's not fatal, just irritating.

btw, i moderate 24/365/48 years.....so far......in my day job.....that is enough....and those people work for me.

 

[the sound of Tao]

As soon as "they", "camp", "group" and similar expressions are being adressed, it is waaayyy too late for a reasonable and constructive discussion

I figure at our ages times spent caught up in enmity is a just pointless waste and Peter’s (@PeterA) mentions that more sharing (again) of our systems and personal system development seems a good way to be self moderating ourselves back even more towards the positive. All the passion and fun is at the core and the joy of shared experiences is infectious. This hobby is still a fantastic one and not at all a simple pathway and we are quite niche units and as we move to growing senescence (sigh) so the shared support here is invaluable… certainly as few in our lives completely get our grand obsessions

 

[tima]

I wouldn't characterize the pushback against the "natural sound" thread as "whining." Instead, maybe consider why was there was so much pushback?

To me, Natural Sound, in this context, has come across as more of a divisive, quasi-religious marketing term. I believe it's a term that shouldn't be co-opted. Who doesn't seek a natural sounding reproduction of music from their electronics? It's a quest, with different paths, always on an unreachable horizon.

For those that are seeking "artificial sound" from their systems, that's another story.

Okay, that's your retrospective. But I do not recall you contributing to narrow or expand the discussion or offer your own perspective on basis of preference and the influence of live acoustic music on which the notion of natural sound is grounded. If you don't like the terminology, propose what you think is more appropriate. If there is something else that guides your system goals or your approach to assessment then offer it up. Being reactionary only goes so far.

 

[tima]

very much asked the same Q, who here doesn't aim for a natural sound. I'm afraid the response I got was an invite to discuss "my" natural sound on my system thread.

Sounds like quite a reasonable response to me.

 

[awsmone]

Okay, that's your retrospective. But I do not recall you contributing to narrow or expand the discussion or offer your own perspective on basis of preference and the influence of live acoustic music on which the notion of natural sound is grounded. If you don't like the terminology, propose what you think is more appropriate. If there is something else that guides your system goals or your approach to assessment then offer it up. Being reactionary only goes so far.

Maybe it’s the linkage between “natural sound” and a move to a certain technology is the issue
i believe this is certainly the goal of some if not all, no matter how they perceptively define it
I have read of people who have gone to DDK.
PeterA engaged about this perspective of sound reproduction, and made a radical change in equipment
the sound on his vids , to me at least is an improvement on what he had before, for whatever reason
I prefer the sound he has now
is maybe natural sound a bad term, I think PeterA was trying to codify what he was seeking not create a schism
maybe a new term like heliosonic etc would be better, clearly there are people who like the “heliosonic “ sound

 

[tima]

the 'negative' reaction to the 'natural sound' had/has to do with the choice of using such a generally positive widely applied term and then inferring that it required a somewhat narrow approach (casting suggestions that other approaches were not natural).....which also involved a polarizing mentor (by association, maybe not actively) amping up the angst about it. the passion and focus of the author doubled down the effect. then once started it had to then be continually defended as righteous......digging deeper and deeper.

Each of us is responsible for our own angst. Don't blame someone else for your personal emotions. If you did not like the connotation of "natural sound" propose what you like, beyond 'organic oranges'.

 

[tima]

clearly there are people who like the “heliosonic “ sound

It's certainly Copernican.