Stromtank Battery Supply / Sine Wave Converter

[amirm]

There are more puzzling numbers in their spec:

"Typical charge current 6 Adc - factory setting"

The batteries they use are 100 amp/hour. At 6 amps it will take 100/6 = 16.7 hours to recharge them from empty. That is a really small charger for this size battery.

I just don't understand how such a giant box at such high prices can have such a tiny inverter and charger in it. I mean these toy level numbers in grand scheme of things.

Yes you can try to run your whole system from it but you better have one heck of an efficient system. No way would I power any power amp with it at levels I play to make me deaf before I die.

 

[Keith_W]

I may have missed it, but do they indicate how many charge/discharge cycles the battery is good for? What happens when these batteries eventually fail to hold charge, do they become a very expensive paperweight?

I hate batteries, and I especially hate large, expensive batteries. I hate proprietary batteries even more, but most of all I hate batteries that you can not replace (hello smartphone batteries and Apple Macbooks!). They are bad for the environment, they lose capacity over time, and you are constantly worrying about when they are going to run out.

 

[Rodney Gold]

you will need at least a 5kva and possibly a 7kva system to run 2 amps that each take 1200w at idle. you cannot exceed the inverters rating , IE overdraw on it , it just trips

Batteries are normally 12v , so a 200 ah battery can deliver 2400w for an hour -- make that closer to 1600w with power corrections etc ... so to run your amps for 3 hours , you need 6 x 200ah batteries . a good 200ah deep cycle battery is around $120 over here .
Plan on replacing them in 7-10 years.. depending on how deep you discharge them
I did use one of the 5kva portable power conditioners/ups we use at work for our lasers power supply , but they have fans that are obtrusive

 

[microstrip]

Every room and system is a different case concerning mains supply. Unless one gets a full report on the mains quality in his house, monitoring characteristic such as distortion, stability and instantaneous/periodic fluctuations for a few days, it is difficult to take a decision based on objective parameters.

Juts look at speaker efficiency, typically ranging from 84 to over 100 dB - a x12 power factor, and the many amplifier types. The power requirements of our systems can be night and day!

On the subjective side, I have found that the Devialet, that some people could think to be immune to power issues, is the piece of equipment that shows more improvement when connected to a PSAudio P10 regenerator in my house.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

I think the market for the Stromtank would be exhibitors at show going events. Given the power issues we face this was looking to be a very viable solution to fix power problems for hotel rooms. I was looking to use one or two until it became clear the limitations it would present.

Maybe a beefier version could solve that problem but if this is between a Stromtank and your infrastructure upgrade I would recommend the latter. No surprises or limitations and no battery replacement.

 

[es347]

I ran shielded 12/2 stranded with grd from my panel to Hubbell hospital grade duplexes feeding an ancient PowerWedge 116 MkIi conditioner and Lessloss sig DFPC power cords throughout. I have an ink black noise floor and dynamics to die for and...I have hardly anything invested...happy camping here..

 

[rockitman]

you will need at least a 5kva and possibly a 7kva system to run 2 amps that each take 1200w at idle. you cannot exceed the inverters rating , IE overdraw on it , it just trips

Batteries are normally 12v , so a 200 ah battery can deliver 2400w for an hour -- make that closer to 1600w with power corrections etc ... so to run your amps for 3 hours , you need 6 x 200ah batteries . a good 200ah deep cycle battery is around $120 over here .
Plan on replacing them in 7-10 years.. depending on how deep you discharge them
I did use one of the 5kva portable power conditioners/ups we use at work for our lasers power supply , but they have fans that are obtrusive

and this Stromtank only does 900 volt amps if I am reading the specs correctly ?

 

[amirm]

A bit of simple math:

Volt Amps (VA) = Volt x Amps

In US with nominal 120 volt (RMS) and 15 amp outlet you have 120 * 15 = 1,800 volt amps.
If you have a 20 amp outlet, you have 2,400 volt amps.

This device has only 700 volt amps or less than half of a 15 amp outlet and a third of 20 amp outlet!

Note that with AC, volt amp and watts are different things. To convert from watts to volt amp or vice versa, you need to know the power factor of your device. A purely resistive load like a light bulb has about 1.0 power factor so watts equals volt amps in that case. But our electronics have a lot of other circuits made up of inductors/transformers/capacitors which bring down the power factor. Unless your device specifically says it has power factor correction (PFC), you are going to get less watts than the VA number.

Now you see why I said this device has "toy" level specs for power output. My Airstream coach has a 2000 volt amp sine wave inverter with the same battery capacity for heaven's sake! You can't do much with 700 volt amp. Not in the high-end anyway.

 

[amirm]

I think the market for the Stromtank would be exhibitors at show going events. Given the power issues we face this was looking to be a very viable solution to fix power problems for hotel rooms. I was looking to use one or two until it became clear the limitations it would present.

Seems like an ideal application for that. It has low charge current draw which helps not trip the AC for the rest of the devices you would run direct. That said, I don't envy anyone trying to lift and carry thing thing back and forth. Note also that Lithium batteries are hazardous material so need to go with special freight.

Maybe a beefier version could solve that problem but if this is between a Stromtank and your infrastructure upgrade I would recommend the latter. No surprises or limitations and no battery replacement.

Again well said.

 

[rockitman]

Thanks Amir. As configured, this device appears to work with source components and only the most efficient switching a/b amps or maybe even class D. A non starter for my power hungry amps.

 

[Folsom]

Yes, you only need something half the size of a fridge to power your your CD player, DAC, turntable, and preamp...

 

[Folsom]

It definitely is not supposed to be only for source components.

I think it has been demonstrated at shows powering the entire system.

You know, at Axpona I did sit through a painful experience of playing the 800w monoblocks about as loud as they'd go with the music, for bass, off a StromTank. Yes for a moment it can peak. If it were for home theater it may become exhausted however, unable to keep putting out higher demands. It's dependent as is on some decent energy storage in the capacitors of the amplifiers, DAC's, preamps, etc.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Bill McKiegan, the President of Dan D'Agostino Master Audio Systems, has an additional business as the U.S. distributor of Stromtank. Bill kindly reported that:

Stromtank has recently introduced a new dual inverter model that was designed with large power amplifiers in mind. The power amplifiers would use the hybrid mode. which uses the AC line and battery technology together to derive the best performance. Here is the description from Wolfgang [founder of Stromtank]:

The hybrid mode software contains a program for active AC-in filtering. The battery power inverter activates active filtering of the AC-In current. The current taken from the AC Input is sinusoid in phase with the voltage. That means only active power is taken from the AC source. Our converter compensates harmonics and reactive current from the source.
​

This will solve the dynamic problem for high power amps by filtering the quality of the normal grid voltage.

Result: in blue Hybrid mode you can connect higher loads and you get an excellent AC supply for your setup too, but still take advantage of the filtration and noise suppression of the Stromtank.
​

Bill also reports that: “The impedance of the batteries is at max 25 mOhm.”

 

[Folsom]

That's a reasonable impedance.

But I'd want to hear it first. Too many designers are under the impression that just larger cables, larger this, larger that, always equals totally unimpeded current. The reality is that all systems are somewhat complex, with varying interactions.

For example active filtering does work, but let's say it is a capacitor multiplier (may also be referred to as active PFC or many other things); these seem somewhat common among active devices. The line therefor reads to equipment like it has capacitance, as the active network looks like a capacitor. That's fine until you consider that nearly all SMPS based amplifiers use forms of filters that will cause resonations with the perceived capacitor on the line. A good way to think of this is as stored energy that fights the speed of current delivery. It's not common that I see designs that show me the builders understood much, if any, about the fascinating nature of stored energy. It's something so relevant that I can make an amplifier with 1/10th of the power of another, sound more powerful at regualr volumes by using - for example - 5'ft of 30ga wire between the power supply and amp board to correct an interaction. It seems ridiculous, but when implemented all prejudice evaporates.

(30ga wire at 5'ft is the same as an 0.5ohm resistor)

 

[rockitman]

I don't see the point of this system with the dual invertor unit (hybrid batt/AC) if you can't power your amps 100% on battery power. There are far cheaper solutions to cleaning up grid power. Those with very efficient speakers and SE amps are in luck though as it seems the system can be 100% on battery power.

 

[amirm]

I don't see the point of this system with the dual invertor unit (hybrid batt/AC) if you can't power your amps 100% on battery power. There are far cheaper solutions to cleaning up grid power. Those with very efficient speakers and SE amps are in luck though as it seems the system can be 100% on battery power.

That's my thought too. A hybrid inverter is usually used when neither the AC mains or the battery powered inverter can power a load, e.g. in an RV with 30 amp feed wanting to run two ACs simultaneously. By combining the power between the two, for the duration of battery power you have more power. I have not heard of use of it in this manner for clean power.

On the battery impedance, that is unimpressive too. The cells I use have 9 milliohm rated impedance. From what I recall, in a fully connected system mine was around 15 milliohms. The higher the impedance, the more power is wasted in the battery rather than delivered to the inverter/load. There are LiFePo4 batteries with high impedance which must be the type they are using.

 

[bgupton]

Curious what you all think of this non-audiophile solution. It's only $4K and doesn't look too bad. They do offer a similarly spec'd version to the Stromtank that retails for around $5,500, but it's currently listed as out-of-stock.

I can't really see why this one costs $5,500 and the Stromtank is $30k but maybe that casing justifies the insane premium.

I'm chatting with a company willing to do a one-off solution to my spec for about the same cost here plus whatever extra cost for different components/materials. I run SET amps, so my system isn't as power hungry as other systems.

I'm curious what "requirements" you'd recommend for a system like mine?

https://www.bioennopower.com/collec...ation/products/4000-w-hr-power-pack-bpp-4000p

 

[bgupton]

This version actually exceeds the Stromtank in pretty much every area. What we can't see in the specs is distortion or how well they recreate the sine wave. Still, seems like a much more cost effective solution for those looking to go this route.

Also, in case of a zombie apocolypse, these have the ability to be charged by solar panels. And who wants to face the end times without their HiFi?!?





https://www.bioennopower.com/collec...oducts/copy-of-6500-w-hr-power-pack-bpp-h6500

Price: $5,699.99

This BPP-H8000 On-and-off Grid-tie solar Power Pack is Not in stock. Please email your request to sale@bioennopower.com, and you will be advised the delivery time.

Applications

This multi-function mobile renewable power station for industrial/commercial/residential applications provides a combination of functions including renewable energy storage, major or backup (auxiliary) power supplies, and UPS in a highly lightweight, compact unit. This mobile system with an intelligent control and associated user interface can work in a hybrid mode of (1) off grid ( an off-grid standalone system) and/or (2) on grid (a grid-tie system).

At A Glance -- Product Features

8.0 kWh energy storage and 4.0 kW power output
Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery as energy storage
Integrated Intelligent Micro-Computer Control System
UPS Function (off line UPS Switching time <20ms)
Distributed On-off Micro grid system
Peak avoid mode to save your electricity bill
Pure Sine Wave Inverter
MPPT Solar Controller
Touchscreen Interface
Multifunctional
Remote and mobile monitoring
Simple Operation and Flexible Usage
Long Service Life and Dependable Performance
BPP-H8000 Power Pack Specifications

Battery Type: LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate)
Battery Voltage: 58.1V
Battery Capacity: 162Ah
Watt Hours: 8000 Watt hours
Weight: 301 lbs. (137 kg.)
AC Output: 110VAC (220VAC Upon Request)
Maximum AC Continuous Discharge: 3000 Watts from Pure Sine Wave Inverter
Peak Discharge: 4000 Watts for 10 Seconds.
Input 1: 110VAC Input (220VAC Input Upon Request)
Maximum VAC Charge Current: 2400 Watts at 60Hz
Input 2: 75V-150V Solar Input (Solar Input must be used within this range)
Solar Efficiency: MPPT >96% Efficiency
Maximum Solar Charge Current: 2400 Watts (3000Watt Upon Request)
Maximum System Operation Temperature: 32°F ~ 104°F (0°C ~ 40°C)
Battery Operating Temperature: -4°F ~ 140°F (-20°C ~ 60°C)
Battery Charge Temperature: 32°F ~ 113°F (0°C ~ 45
Price: $5,699.99

This BPP-H8000 On-and-off Grid-tie solar Power Pack is Not in stock. Please email your request to sale@bioennopower.com, and you will be advised the delivery time.

Applications

This multi-function mobile renewable power station for industrial/commercial/residential applications provides a combination of functions including renewable energy storage, major or backup (auxiliary) power supplies, and UPS in a highly lightweight, compact unit. This mobile system with an intelligent control and associated user interface can work in a hybrid mode of (1) off grid ( an off-grid standalone system) and/or (2) on grid (a grid-tie system).

At A Glance -- Product Features

8.0 kWh energy storage and 4.0 kW power output
Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery as energy storage
Integrated Intelligent Micro-Computer Control System
UPS Function (off line UPS Switching time <20ms)
Distributed On-off Micro grid system
Peak avoid mode to save your electricity bill
Pure Sine Wave Inverter
MPPT Solar Controller
Touchscreen Interface
Multifunctional
Remote and mobile monitoring
Simple Operation and Flexible Usage
Long Service Life and Dependable Performance
BPP-H8000 Power Pack Specifications

Battery Type: LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate)
Battery Voltage: 58.1V
Battery Capacity: 162Ah
Watt Hours: 8000 Watt hours
Weight: 301 lbs. (137 kg.)
AC Output: 110VAC (220VAC Upon Request)
Maximum AC Continuous Discharge: 3000 Watts from Pure Sine Wave Inverter
Peak Discharge: 4000 Watts for 10 Seconds.
Input 1: 110VAC Input (220VAC Input Upon Request)
Maximum VAC Charge Current: 2400 Watts at 60Hz
Input 2: 75V-150V Solar Input (Solar Input must be used within this range)
Solar Efficiency: MPPT >96% Efficiency
Maximum Solar Charge Current: 2400 Watts (3000Watt Upon Request)
Maximum System Operation Temperature: 32°F ~ 104°F (0°C ~ 40°C)
Battery Operating Temperature: -4°F ~ 140°F (-20°C ~ 60°C)
Battery Charge Temperature: 32°F ~ 113°F (0°C ~ 45°C)
Cycle Life: > 2000 cycles
Dimensions: 31 in. x 14 in. x 36 in. (779 mm x 347 mm x 912 mm)

 

[Altanpsx]

One of my friend using two stromtank with, MBL Radialstrahler mbl 101 X-treme, two pair of tad m600 mono, tad c2000 pre, full stack vivaldi, aurender w20, techdas af1, ypsilon phono stage. All can say is, his system was fantastic before stromtank, and after stromtank it becomes a different thing. If your system worth this kind of investment, i think it works flawlessly...

 

[earlinarizona]

To Altanpsx. Could you clarify and expand on your answer of the last post on the Stromtank/MBL.
Thanks