what's the advantage of the butterfly record and repro heads for Studer A810 ? Better recordings and playback ? I'm considering buying a complete headblock w/ butterfly heads if it's worth it. TIA
Studer A810 Butterfly vs standard heads
- Thread starter rockitman
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Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
No... I have 3 headblocs for mine and can swap out really quickly. Short answer... not worth it. I don't see what the hype is all about.
for A810, I don't know, but for a modified A80, the butterfly is much better
tony ma
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Other than it being 3dB louder, I don't see any advantage. Do you have any documentation stating this where we can see measurements?
We have modified A80 machines and can swap heads pretty quickly. I've done tape transfers for 100's of clients and they always choose the NAB heads over the DIN heads.
Sorry, We didn't measure, only judged by listen, most of us got the same answer , maybe in a tube no feed back modification will in a different result
tony ma
tony ma
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
The headblock in question is like $1500.00 on ebay. Doesn't sound like a great deal, although the survivalist mentality in me drives my interest. I did purchase a complete set backup cards for the A810 save for the MP battery card..
How about the different of out put tape that may make it in different result too that we believe, because using 499 and GP9 of tape in testing
tony ma
tony ma
'Butterfly' (Wolke) heads have track widths that are 2.75 mm wide. A standard NAB head has track widths of 2mm. Obviously, if a 2 track recording is recorded AND played with 2.75mm tracks it will have a higher level on the tape, a lower noise floor, and AFAIK lower distortion. Pretty much along the same lines as 2 track 1/2" or 1" tape, but of course, a lesser improvement. The differences are wider track widths and the benefits of that.
However, using butterfly heads to playback an NAB recorded tape, is playing a wider track than was recorded, so will actually increase the noise somewhat. If the original tape wasn't full-track erased before this last recording pass on an NAB head, the butterfly head can 'hear' remnants of the old recording or timecode left between the tracks.
A butterfly head recording played on an NAB head will show little or no improvement over a tape recorded as NAB. A slight increase in level is all. And possibly a slight increase in LF response due to 'fringing' effect of a wide tape track on a narrower tape head.
I don't believe the type of tape used will make any difference. It's just a matter of track width.
Butterfly head record and play is said to have slightly lower separation between channels than NAB head recorded and played, because the tracks are closer together by virtue of being wider.
--Bill
However, using butterfly heads to playback an NAB recorded tape, is playing a wider track than was recorded, so will actually increase the noise somewhat. If the original tape wasn't full-track erased before this last recording pass on an NAB head, the butterfly head can 'hear' remnants of the old recording or timecode left between the tracks.
A butterfly head recording played on an NAB head will show little or no improvement over a tape recorded as NAB. A slight increase in level is all. And possibly a slight increase in LF response due to 'fringing' effect of a wide tape track on a narrower tape head.
I don't believe the type of tape used will make any difference. It's just a matter of track width.
Butterfly head record and play is said to have slightly lower separation between channels than NAB head recorded and played, because the tracks are closer together by virtue of being wider.
--Bill
From a recent conversation with Paul Weitzel:
"I have around 300 master dubs, all recorded on various decks. Some studios used Saki heads. Some used Taber. some used Nortronics professional grade. Some used wide tape head gaps, some used narrow. Some used high impedence heads, some used low impedence. My 3M and Scully decks are modified and with Paul's custom electronics, I feel that I can retrieve much more information than I can from my Studer decks (also modified) as an example. The key to getting as much as possible is to use a playback head with as similar characteristics as the record head that they had used. so I have 23 different headstack mounts for my Scully 280's, with different characteristics, so I can retrieve as much information as possible.
Basically, you have to match the 3 or 4 characteristics of the record head as possible. It is a new concept for most guys, ... Even the professionals. I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned this to several of the guys who do this for a living. Most seem to think that they can purchase one new head and it will work for every master they play. I guess they never put much thought into it.
And the same headstack, without ever considering that they needed to match the characteristics of the record head. Paul mentioned this to the folks at Skywalker in the early/mid 1990's, and if you look at their masters, they made a notation on their master notes as to the impedence/gap width/ headstack material (copper, iron, etc.) , of the record head used. This way, when they play it back, they don't have to try 20 plus some headstacks to try to get the correct sound from the playback."
"I have around 300 master dubs, all recorded on various decks. Some studios used Saki heads. Some used Taber. some used Nortronics professional grade. Some used wide tape head gaps, some used narrow. Some used high impedence heads, some used low impedence. My 3M and Scully decks are modified and with Paul's custom electronics, I feel that I can retrieve much more information than I can from my Studer decks (also modified) as an example. The key to getting as much as possible is to use a playback head with as similar characteristics as the record head that they had used. so I have 23 different headstack mounts for my Scully 280's, with different characteristics, so I can retrieve as much information as possible.
Basically, you have to match the 3 or 4 characteristics of the record head as possible. It is a new concept for most guys, ... Even the professionals. I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned this to several of the guys who do this for a living. Most seem to think that they can purchase one new head and it will work for every master they play. I guess they never put much thought into it.
And the same headstack, without ever considering that they needed to match the characteristics of the record head. Paul mentioned this to the folks at Skywalker in the early/mid 1990's, and if you look at their masters, they made a notation on their master notes as to the impedence/gap width/ headstack material (copper, iron, etc.) , of the record head used. This way, when they play it back, they don't have to try 20 plus some headstacks to try to get the correct sound from the playback."
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
I wish the master tapes we get in here had that much information. I'd just love to have tones!!!
I certainly understand the need to match the gap, and to a lesser degree the material, but the impedance? I can't see how that has any bearing on the playback except for being correct to the input of the playback preamp.
It sounds like 'matching' (picking and choosing) to obtain a particular sound, not so much trying to reproduce the most accurate representation as possible. The two are quite different goals.
I'd certainly like to read a white paper or other form of documentation about this.
The single biggest difference between heads (even of the same type) is to have a set where the gaps are in absolutely perfect vertical alignment to each other and perpendicularly, so that when azimuth is correct, both gaps are exactly 90 degrees vertical. It's not uncommon for a very slight difference to be found between the upper and lower laminations, such that when azimuth is correct, neither of them are exactly at 90 degrees. It can affect timbre, accuracy of frequency response curve and distortion. Of course, both the head that recorded the tracks and the head that plays them must meet this objective.
--Bill
Based on what criteria, Bruce? By listening comparisons, or explanation?
What do you hear in listening comparisons? (other than level)
--Bill
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
I send files to my clients blindly.. labeled as sample 1... sample 2... and so on. I tell them I've used different converters and headstacks. I try to level match the samples to within 0.1dB.
What I hear is a smearing of the soundstage. You really can't pinpoint the direction of instruments. Things like vocals feel bloated instead of fine detailed images.
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So butterfly heads are DIN heads versus standard NAB heads not to be confused with nab and iec equalizations ?
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