Sublime Sound

PeterA

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Peter, my point is that there is no loss of information listening in a room with too much absorption. I argue opposite. Take my anechoic chamber example again. It is well documented that after certain time in anechoic chamber, one can listen one’s own blood rushing in the blood vessels. You can listen to more information.

It is a mix of directed and reflected sound people find pleasing. It is not about more information in a lively room.

Thank you. I misunderstood and appreciate the clarification. Are people hearing their pulse or are they feeling it? Also, are they hyper sensitive to it because of the complete lack of other outside stimulation? I'm curious now.

And if you are arguing the opposite, that a damped room provides the same or more information, why is it that I heard less subtle spatial cures about the recording venue, and less energy from the cellist's bow against the strings, and the resonance of the wooden body? Why does the sound energy only now seem to flow into or fill the room better with less absorption in the room?
 

bonzo75

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Peter, the one certain thing I have found from my visits is there is no rule for treatment or toe-in. It is too case by case. Sure, it is easy to make a generalization that overdamped is bad and over live is bad too. That doesn't really help. If an owner is listening in a dead room, he is not a reference but a lost data point.

Apart from that, there is no rule. There are some broad guideline. A lot of videos I post are SETs horns. These are easier to sound right in untreated natural living rooms provided sufficient space. The reason I like them is once you get the speaker right the rest is easier to get a good sound. There are tons of SETs and low watt push pulls that sound good on them. They can sound good wide and toed-in or narrow and straight. Generally, over 4m space is required between listener and horn for drivers to integrate. Preferably more, and they sound better with more space

Panels usually sound better straight. Logans can be toed in or straight. I prefer them in longer rooms, close to side walls is not an issue but they should be wide enough from each other to disappear. I usually find myself beyond the equilateral triangle point for panels, so longer back. I hate the front wall damped on panels.

For YG, Mike's direction, etc, things can sound pretty bad till they sound right. The effort and cost in amplification is far higher. Also, very few have the ability to roll boulder, dagostino, balabo, technical brain, audionet Heisenberg, top Dartzeel etc to find the right choice. For such systems the rules are tougher and they interact very differently with rooms, causing bass boom, brightness, all that needs to be balanced more. That's why treating them correctly becomes more important. Their dispersion characteristic is very different to horns. Needless to say I have found very few good rooms of such types, as you know from my posts. In the smaller/average sized rooms, the best room I heard was Jazzhead's, it was 25ft x 11 ft, so very narrow, but he had partial treatment.

I have experimented with SMT wings at Elberoth, Jazzhead, Flyer, been in 3 full SMTed rooms, been in many GIK type panel rooms, and my Avalon friend in London has a great room with a couple of side diffusors and a second room that he partially treats. Bill with his Focal used to experiment with moving absorbers around which I was exposed to. I myself had GIK traps which I sold off immediately because I did not like them, they killed sound. I also went from a barren floor to full carpeted which while better, I should have kept partially carpeted. Mistake. Mike's and Marty's when he had the pipedreams were the best rooms I heard in terms of infinite headroom as if you are in the open without noise of the street. Comparatively, with everyone else you know you are in their room. Mike also has the lowest noise floor I have ever heard, so that helps.

But no, I don't know which treatment works best and is a general rule. For my chosen direction, it will be SETs horns in a living room with no planned treatment, which I am happy to change to minimal treatment. Also most people with normal rooms get a speaker too big for their rooms and simple Tannoys, devore orangutans, etc sound much better than an incorrect speaker

Also realism factors for SETs horns to sound real and for SS Cones to sound real are very different. People ask me all the time how I can like Yamamura and Pnoe Mayer, and also Mike's system. My answer to them is they are different schools and I am not stubborn

And yes, just paying someone to set up a room and treat it doesn't work there has to be trial and error adjustment after that
 
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adyc

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Thank you. I misunderstood and appreciate the clarification. Are people hearing their pulse or are they feeling it? Also, are they hyper sensitive to it because of the complete lack of other outside stimulation? I'm curious now.

And if you are arguing the opposite, that a damped room provides the same or more information, why is it that I heard less subtle spatial cures about the recording venue, and less energy from the cellist's bow against the strings, and the resonance of the wooden body? Why does the sound energy only now seem to flow into or fill the room better with less absorption in the room?

Maybe our definition of information is different. You hear more cello wooden body resonance now is because of stronger reflected sound. It does not mean more information.
 
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wil

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My unusual room, 15x60', with lots of glass, was way too live before treatment. In response, I've used a combination of absorption on some of the glass and a lot diffusion on the ceiling and also on a partial free standing back wall (at 45'). At the close in "listening" position the sound has an intimate, quiet studio quality which I like very much. I also listen further back in the room, on my feet while working, for a more live, reflective sound experience. I like having access to both.

I don't have any sense of losing information at the more treated close-in position. The difference, I believe, is I hear more of the space of the recording venue there. Further back, my room takes over with it's own reflected sound. For what's it's worth, maybe the best reproduced sound I've heard was in a professionally designed control room with Amphion studio monitors.
 
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bonzo75

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One more thing... Often, like with voting, we have to choose between the lesser of two evils and the ideal candidate is difficult to come by
 

PeterA

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One more thing... Often, like with voting, we have to choose between the lesser of two evils and the ideal candidate is difficult to come by

Good attempt. But I’m not going to take the bait because I don’t want Ron to shut down the thread.
 

bonzo75

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bonzo75

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Guys, what do you think of these two videos, blind test relevant to current discussion. Please post your thoughts referencing top video bottom video.


 

bonzo75

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First, just say which one you prefer. You can say why. Then I will tell you what the changes are, and you can guess which video has the change
 

PeterA

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First, just say which one you prefer. You can say why. Then I will tell you what the changes are, and you can guess which video has the change

I prefer the one with the lights on. The HFs are not as strident, especially the violin. The triangles sound more natural. Bass is boomy on both, but better on the second one with lights on. I find it more natural sounding all around, though I still find it a bit pushy/emphasized. The volume seems slightly higher in the dark one.

You are probably going to tell us that there is no difference besides lighting and volume to prove that we are full of it, LOL. Doesn't matter, I can take the truth. I do prefer many of the other videos you have posted. You can PM me if you want to share before others respond.
 
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bonzo75

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No no, it's not a trick question.
 

Lagonda

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I prefer the one with the lights on. The HFs are not as strident, especially the violin. The triangles sound more natural. Bass is boomy on both, but better on the second one with lights on. I find it more natural sounding all around, though I still find it a bit pushy/emphasized. The volume seems slightly higher in the dark one.

You are probably going to tell us that there is no difference besides lighting and volume to prove that we are full of it, LOL. Doesn't matter, I can take the truth. I do prefer many of the other videos you have posted. You can PM me if you want to share before others respond.
I just want to see the video of you locking yourself into a closet and talking to yourself !;)
 

bonzo75

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I just want to see the video of you locking yourself into a closet and talking to yourself !;)

He is an in the closet potential horn owner
 

Tango

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Guys, what do you think of these two videos, blind test relevant to current discussion. Please post your thoughts referencing top video bottom video.


These systems sound interesting. I like the top one more. It has some element of horn. It has the see through clarity with the sound that break the glass wall between listener and the system. There is a directness of sound that on some notes radiate the energy to you to hear more physically...more poise, more live. Listen to the instruments in the back stage. It even has a reach and physical. In contrast the video with light on is very good at giving a high resolution picture of sound, easier more pleasant to the ears, but it presents sound like a 2d/3-d "simulator" with a clear glass wall between the listener and the system.

Both using Audionet?
 
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microstrip

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(...) Both sounded quite different from my living room but there was a key difference: the information in the shower stall seemed to all be there while the sound from my closet was lacking information and that made it sound much less natural. (...)

Peter,

We can't separate rooms and acoustic treatments from how loud you want to listen. Professionals usually need to listen loud to perceive clearly all detail and anything that can be wrong in a recording - in such cases they need treated rooms to avoid too much reflected energy and being overloaded. For example, in my experience properly treated rooms can reproduce bass at extremely loud levels with great slam and control - it is why their owners most of time want to play an impressive recording of drums! But yes, my interest is elsewhere - I do not listen loud.


The problem with rooms with wall tampons and too much absorption, is that information goes missing. Energy at some frequencies and aspects of the sound embedded on the recordings never reach your ears. This can accentuate other information and make bass stand out or seem really tight. Images can be stark. The sound can be full of contrasts, and seem enhanced and exciting, but this is not natural because the full spectrum is not there. Our minds search for what is missing.

The problem you refer is not due just to absorption quality, but mostly to absorption quality. Proper absorption is expensive and hard to get. Most of the acoustic materials people use in their rooms have very poor response (absorption versus frequency) and are not specified for angular absorption - very few manufacturers supply adequate data on their acoustic products.

Just because we are unsuccessful does not imply that a properly treated room can't sound better than a non treated one. It just shows we were doing it wrongly. :) IMHO making uncontrolled experiences in poor rooms can be funny but is inconclusive.

Jim Smith is a contributor in another audio forum - I have been following his contributions for years, although I seldom post there . He has very interesting opinions on these matters. Please see https://www.audioshark.org/acoustic...-eliminated-10798-post-185479.html#post185479
 

PeterA

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These systems sound interesting. I like the top one more. It has some element of horn. It has the see through clarity with the sound that break the glass wall between listener and the system. There is a directness of sound that on some notes radiate the energy to you to hear more physically...more poise, more live. Listen to the instruments in the back stage. It even has a reach and physical. In contrast the video with light on is very good at giving a high resolution picture of sound, easier more pleasant to the ears, but it presents sound like a 2d/3-d "simulator" with a clear glass wall between the listener and the system.

Both using Audionet?

Tang, that’s an excellent description of the differences. I turned down the volume of my headphones and now hear better what you were describing.
 

bonzo75

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Yes, both are audionet stern and Heisenberg with Wilson Benesch speakers. Actually I was recommending this for a while after hearing heihei's with the Pacific with 242 valves, and this guy had a Piega which boomed like crazy in his room. He replaced it with Wilson Benesch and it really sings much better now. Source is streaming via MSB
 

bonzo75

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Anyway, I too preferred the top much more.

Now next question. One of them has had ASC tube traps added to the other one, so which has more ASC tube traps
 

Tango

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Yes, both are audionet stern and Heisenberg with Wilson Benesch speakers. Actually I was recommending this for a while after hearing heihei's with the Pacific with 242 valves, and this guy had a Piega which boomed like crazy in his room. He replaced it with Wilson Benesch and it really sings much better now. Source is streaming via MSB
The system sounds great. Possibly sounds better than mine overall if go by check box. What dac is he using?
 

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