Sublime Sound
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Congrats peter , another well made / constructed speaker .
But with one caveat imo , if you ever find the speaker tilted to the hot side with some material a bit , try some woolfelt around the tweeter
It will dampen the tweeter somewhat FR wise/improve focus and bring the bass up , but in your small size room it might be just good like they are now i dont know .
greetz HJ
But with one caveat imo , if you ever find the speaker tilted to the hot side with some material a bit , try some woolfelt around the tweeter
It will dampen the tweeter somewhat FR wise/improve focus and bring the bass up , but in your small size room it might be just good like they are now i dont know .
greetz HJ
Well done Peter! They look fabulous in there, and I am sure they sound excellent. As you know, I am not a fan of the M3s [at least not yet], and every time I hear them, I keep asking myself, "what have they done to my beloved Q3s!" Well, they took the real bass out, and it sounds thin all the way to the midrange...
Welcome to the full-range world [which now means fighting the bass LOL], and to treble energy (I didn't realize that the Minis' tweeter rolls off at 10kHz, perhaps this is what I was hearing and complaining about all these years). The increase in resolution ought to be a big plus in your system, and the Q3s offer electrostatic qualities there, unlike the Minis.
The Q3s are also my dream speaker for my room, though I got the impression in the end that driver integration is not as uniform as an electrostat (and where the M3s and MPros really excel).
Welcome to the full-range world [which now means fighting the bass LOL], and to treble energy (I didn't realize that the Minis' tweeter rolls off at 10kHz, perhaps this is what I was hearing and complaining about all these years). The increase in resolution ought to be a big plus in your system, and the Q3s offer electrostatic qualities there, unlike the Minis.
The Q3s are also my dream speaker for my room, though I got the impression in the end that driver integration is not as uniform as an electrostat (and where the M3s and MPros really excel).
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Congratulations Peter,
The Q3s do look a great fit in your room. Hope they bring you even more musical joy over the years than the minis which you so clearly have enjoyed.
The Q3s do look a great fit in your room. Hope they bring you even more musical joy over the years than the minis which you so clearly have enjoyed.
+1 It's always great when an experienced audiophile makes a big system move and presents the thinking for it so clearly for everyone to share. Enjoy!
Congratulations Peter! The Q3 combines much of the excellent qualities of the Q5 with a much higher efficiency, a great point.
Am I the last of the Mini II Mohicans?
Am I the last of the Mini II Mohicans?
Hi Peter,
Congrats! Very few things in life as pleasurable as getting what you want. And Q3 is by far the best model in the Magico Q line.
Now that you got these, you gotta chuck those Pass electronics for some CAT tubes, like MadFloyd has, and you will enter an even more splendid part of heaven... Juuust kidding! Enjoy!!!
On a serious note, the only weakness I noted on the Magico Mini is a non-ideal driver integration. Surely it's improved on the Q3. Yet you don't mention it...
Congratulations, Peter, on your new speakers! They are clearly right for your tastes and your room.
During the auditioning period I found it interesting how things jumped into place with just slight changes in speaker positioning. A change of distance of just 5 inches between the speakers made all the difference between an anemic sound and one with full body and great dynamics. The piano on the Beethoven Apassionata, and the percussion of the Sheffield drum track just explode into the room with dynamic energy. It has also been reported by Alex on this thread that slight positioning changes can make the speakers' character mutate completely. Interestingly, differences in toe-in also produced marked differences in the resolution of timbre of solo strings.
It is clear that a speaker like this one can only be judged properly after a very dedicated, and mostly time-consuming, set-up procedure. If people say they have heard Magico speakers 20 times, but none of these times it sounded truly great, then the conclusion for me is obvious that they have heard them 20 times under suboptimal conditions (speaker set-up, associated gear). Their opinion does not carry weight.
A few additional observations:
1. I did not expect the speakers to as fully disappear from the soundstage and performers to have as much presence as with your monitors, but they do, even in that not very large room of yours. Again, it took some set-up to get there, but it is an unmitigated success. Sure, the speakers are still relatively small even though full-range, but they are certainly much larger than the monitors.
2. Bass is obviously much better in extension than with the Mini II, and for example, stand-up bass in jazz ensembles is no comparison. I had always found that problematic with the Mini II, and now the sound from stand-up bass is of high quality and very enjoyable. When I said I didn't hear much difference in extension between the Q3 and the Mini II, that was a comment strictly limited to one particular LP, 'Pure Heroine' by Lorde, where the Mini II showed an unexpectedly grand bass performance in the past. There seem to be no bass issues at all in your room with the Q3 speakers, unlike with subwoofers in an effort to augment the Mini II (sure, extension is not quite as deep as with a sub, but perfectly satisfying). No 'fighting the bass' needed...
3. Apparently, some people complain about the Q3 tweeter to be on the 'hot' side, but I heard none of this. The tweeter always, with any musical material, strikes me as perfectly civilized and well-integrated, not drawing attention to itself. It is also very resolving. I still remember fondly when we listened to the entire LP of 'Sketches of Spain' last week, and while the sound overall had a seductive warmth alongside great definition, Miles' muted trumpet cut through with great tone, incisive and resolved, but not 'etched' in any way.
During the auditioning period I found it interesting how things jumped into place with just slight changes in speaker positioning. A change of distance of just 5 inches between the speakers made all the difference between an anemic sound and one with full body and great dynamics. The piano on the Beethoven Apassionata, and the percussion of the Sheffield drum track just explode into the room with dynamic energy. It has also been reported by Alex on this thread that slight positioning changes can make the speakers' character mutate completely. Interestingly, differences in toe-in also produced marked differences in the resolution of timbre of solo strings.
It is clear that a speaker like this one can only be judged properly after a very dedicated, and mostly time-consuming, set-up procedure. If people say they have heard Magico speakers 20 times, but none of these times it sounded truly great, then the conclusion for me is obvious that they have heard them 20 times under suboptimal conditions (speaker set-up, associated gear). Their opinion does not carry weight.
A few additional observations:
1. I did not expect the speakers to as fully disappear from the soundstage and performers to have as much presence as with your monitors, but they do, even in that not very large room of yours. Again, it took some set-up to get there, but it is an unmitigated success. Sure, the speakers are still relatively small even though full-range, but they are certainly much larger than the monitors.
2. Bass is obviously much better in extension than with the Mini II, and for example, stand-up bass in jazz ensembles is no comparison. I had always found that problematic with the Mini II, and now the sound from stand-up bass is of high quality and very enjoyable. When I said I didn't hear much difference in extension between the Q3 and the Mini II, that was a comment strictly limited to one particular LP, 'Pure Heroine' by Lorde, where the Mini II showed an unexpectedly grand bass performance in the past. There seem to be no bass issues at all in your room with the Q3 speakers, unlike with subwoofers in an effort to augment the Mini II (sure, extension is not quite as deep as with a sub, but perfectly satisfying). No 'fighting the bass' needed...
3. Apparently, some people complain about the Q3 tweeter to be on the 'hot' side, but I heard none of this. The tweeter always, with any musical material, strikes me as perfectly civilized and well-integrated, not drawing attention to itself. It is also very resolving. I still remember fondly when we listened to the entire LP of 'Sketches of Spain' last week, and while the sound overall had a seductive warmth alongside great definition, Miles' muted trumpet cut through with great tone, incisive and resolved, but not 'etched' in any way.
Good one, Bob!. That is quite a review. He also speaks about the silence of the Q3 and how it takes some getting used to. I agree. There is an eerie sense of quiet and lack of distortion to this cabinet. Sailing indeed.
Peter, I am absolutely ecstatically happy for you that you finally have your dream speaker, and that it is as good, or even better, than you expected! I am sure the Q3 will take you to a higher level of enjoyment with your music than you have ever experienced before! Congratulations!
What do you think accounts for the large changes in tonal balance and weight and “body” with small changes in speaker position?
Thanks again Ron. That is a very good question. I really don't know the answer, but I suspect it has to do with having very little noise of its own, so subtle changes in position are not masked over and thus easily heard. My room is small and sealed; not too live and not too dead. I really like the balance, and the room is quite revealing, and like the speakers, does not absorb or distort/reflect the sounds much. I think the speaker interacts with the room more than did the Mini 2, and there is such a low noise floor from the speaker, that subtle tonal shifts are easily heard. Al M. and I have discussed this at length. We were astonished by how much small shifts in position change the sound. We honestly think that people who describe the Q3 as bright, hot, sterile, analytical, but not musical, lacking body and warmth, etc, have simply not heard the speaker well positioned in the particular room or it was not well matched with the rest of the system. These speakers are extremely revealing and transparent and they really let you know what is happening with the set up. If everything is clicking, they have little sound of their own and the music can be presented in a very natural and convincing manner.
It may also have something to do with the dispersion patterns of the drivers and cabinet shape. The sealed enclosure should make placement easier for the lower frequencies, but distance between the speakers and toe-in really effects the tonal balance and sense of weight and body. Al and Ian heard this immediately when the speakers were too far apart. The sound lacked energy and was rather flat and uninvolving. We moved the speakers 5" closer together, and wow, what a change. Huge increase in energy, liveliness, weight, body, warmth, involvement. I also suspect that the drivers and size of the speaker are right at the limit of what the room can handle without a great deal more acoustic treatment, so it interacts with the boundaries more than did the Mini. These are just guesses, and I'm sure others may have been answers to your question.
Congratulations, Peter. I have enjoyed your wonderful Mini-II's for years; they are great speakers. I still remember the first time I brought over Green Street (Grant Green) and marveled at the buttery guitar tone, the articulate bass and the definition of the high-hats - all of which eluded me in my own system at the time. Or the incredible impact of the Sheffield Drum LP. Exposure to your system has educated and influenced me over the years.
That said, knowing you would ultimately prefer more bass extension, I wondered if there ever would be a time when you would get the chance to hear full ranged speakers in your room and whether they would work or not. I did think that if any speaker would work (and be to your liking) it would be the Q3 and I was so happy to hear that you were going to get a chance to audition them. Of course I was also happy that I was going to get to hear them too.
And of course, I've now heard them and loved them. I think this is a case of the perfect upgrade - where you gain a lot and give up nothing (a rare situation in audio where there is usually tradeoffs). The musicality that you had before is not only present, but magnified due to frequency extension and what I'm guessing is a reduction in cabinet resonance. I also really like how they look in your room. The Mini-IIs were beautiful works of art, but I like how the Q3s are just 'there'; understated without calling attention to themselves.
With your new frequency bandwidth, here's to hoping your listening content will broaden accordingly and you'll enjoy more orchestral music etc.
Enjoy!
That said, knowing you would ultimately prefer more bass extension, I wondered if there ever would be a time when you would get the chance to hear full ranged speakers in your room and whether they would work or not. I did think that if any speaker would work (and be to your liking) it would be the Q3 and I was so happy to hear that you were going to get a chance to audition them. Of course I was also happy that I was going to get to hear them too.
And of course, I've now heard them and loved them. I think this is a case of the perfect upgrade - where you gain a lot and give up nothing (a rare situation in audio where there is usually tradeoffs). The musicality that you had before is not only present, but magnified due to frequency extension and what I'm guessing is a reduction in cabinet resonance. I also really like how they look in your room. The Mini-IIs were beautiful works of art, but I like how the Q3s are just 'there'; understated without calling attention to themselves.
With your new frequency bandwidth, here's to hoping your listening content will broaden accordingly and you'll enjoy more orchestral music etc.
Enjoy!
It's a great review of your new Magico Q3 speakers, your own review and many additional comments you made...your music sound evolution is a delight to read from such a well balanced guy that you are, plus several more great reviews on the Q3 from all over; all of this plus more make this site one the best.
It is an immense pleasure to be in your company, and your sharing is a gift to me and to all of us.
Congratulations Peter!
Personally I think that these are beautifully looking speakers that do not at all dominate your room visually. And I'm absolutely sure they sound marvellous. Very good decision.
Personally I think that these are beautifully looking speakers that do not at all dominate your room visually. And I'm absolutely sure they sound marvellous. Very good decision.
Andromedaaudio, Thanks for the suggestion to add the felt. So far, I have not heard any issues with high frequencies. The speakers are very extended in my room, but the sound is very natural and not at all fatiguing. This had been a concern, but the sound is wonderful. Not one of the five people who has heard the Q3s in my system so far has complained about the HF extension. I am sensitive to this, and am very pleased to report that the highs are excellent. And, can you imagine how a scrap of felt would affect the appearance of these gorgeous speakers? I listened carefully for your caveat and would not have decided to buy the Q3s if I had heard even a hint of an issue.
Gardener, Thank you so much. I still can not believe that I own these speakers. It is a dream come true and they meet my every expectation. Music has never been so emotionally powerful in my room.
Ack, Yes, I know that you have been interested in these speakers for many years. I read your early reports of auditions at Goodwins. In fact, I think we both attended the introduction demo with Alon Wolf and later spoke about how great the system sounded. So far, I don't hear any issues with the bass of these full range speakers, so no fighting anything yet. Here are two graphs of the response of the Mini 2 in my room. We have discussed these in the past. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12853-Sublime-Sound/page8 The lower graph shows a much later roll off. The 10K figure was with my very low cartridge loading at the time of around 100-300 ohms. Perhaps that is one reason for the result. I now load both of my cartridges at 47Kohms and have for some time. The Minis no longer sound rolled off to me in my room, but you may have a different opinion.
I had always been extremely impressed with the resolution of the Minis as I felt they compared very well to other systems I heard, including electrostatics. I do not find the Q3 more dynamic or faster than the Mini. The Q3s are more resolving sure, but not by as much as your comments seem to imply. Driver integration with the Q3s is superb. I remember you writing that you tested the Q3s at Goodwins at your (less than 9') listening distance at home, and decided it was too close. I have not listened that close in my room. I sit almost 10' from the Q3 and driver integration is superb. Overall coherence is excellent. Solo cello, the acid test for me regarding integration, has never sounded more natural and convincing in my room. I agree that the M3 and MPro are also extremely good with driver integration. As was the old M5. This seems to be one area in which Magico excels.
the sound of Tao, Thank you for the kind words. I agree, the speakers are a great fit in the room. They are already bringing much joy. The are very special, but so are the Minis. The Q3s just present more.
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You mentioned the 40Hz hump
I think in due time you will; the Q1s are also faster
The distance to the M3s is the same, if not shorter, at Goodwin's, and the driver integration perfection is quite obvious. That was not the case with the Q3s. They may just need a bit more distance; in the end, if you are not hearing it, that's what counts.
Enjoy
Marty, I don't know how experienced an audiophile I am. I am constantly being reminded of how little I know. I will say that I have gotten to know my own system very well over the years, as changes have been few and very deliberate. I am glad that you appreciate my efforts to describe my decisions and the reasoning behind them.
Congratulations Peter! The Q3 combines much of the excellent qualities of the Q5 with a much higher efficiency, a great point.
Am I the last of the Mini II Mohicans?
Microstrip, Even the increased efficiency over the Mini 2s seems to produce a more effortless sound and increased sense of ease to the presentation. I have not yet decided what to do with the Minis. A friend in Europe has expressed some interest, but I am quite fond of them and may not sell them. Some of my friends even teased me that my small sailboat is not beamy enough to install them properly. And battery power is precious on a sailboat offshore.
Caesar, The Q3 is my favorite speaker in the Q line. I have heard the others in various settings, perhaps not under optimal conditions. I really like the Pass/Magico pairing. The original Mini was developed in part using a Pass X350. I have no desire to change anything in my system right now. I find your comment about driver integration with the Mini curious. I never heard any issues in my system or in the four other systems in which I have heard the Mini 2. In fact, I once commented to a dealer when hearing both the Mini 2 and the M5 that I thought the latter sounded like a scaled up version of the former, with the same incredible driver integration and sonic coherence. He agreed with me. I did hear driver integration issues with the Magico V3 which is one reason I decided to buy the Mini 2 instead.
Roger, Thank you so much. They do indeed.
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