System Videos and the References Used to Judge their Quality.

ack

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IMO watching videos of a system are totally useless. I ignore them whenever someone posts. It tells me nothing about a system

Totally useless indeed
 

Mike Lavigne

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my concern about video's is i feel an obligation to my gear builders to make sure i make video's that are fair to those products. some listeners will (like it or not) take a video data point and come to conclusions. (imagine that:rolleyes:).

"did you hear that #@*%& on Mike's video, it s*cked!"

i'm not for or against video's, and i see the fun of it. but the dark side of it is also clear. i have gear that few have, so hearing me offer a video of it might be it's only exposure. i take that seriously.

hopefully i can figure out a sufficiently effective video production approach i'm comfortable with. i'm trying.
 

bonzo75

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some listeners will (like it or not) take a video data point and come to conclusions. (imagine that:rolleyes:).

How is this different from how some readers take random posts and draw random conclusions? You think everyone's written posts lead to the conclusions the writer is intending to convey? Videos with words are way more representative than words only, especially for a forum with non English writers. It is just that for some reason people against videos keep positioning it as not as good as in-room listening. Nobody said it was.
 
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tima

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I wonder if it might be more useful to compare a system video to a video of a live music performance just as some of us do when we judge the actual sound of a system we hear to our memory of a live music performance. In other words, comparisons of video to video, and of live listening to live listening.

I think this is theoretically a very interesting topic in as much as it speaks to the issues of evaluation and references and how we gauge what we like. I say 'theoretically' because if it is taken seriously it, for me, starts approaching the absurd.

First, sound waves hit our bodies, if it is music, we audiophiles 'consider it' - we immediately know if it's live or reproduced. If it is live we may very well enjoy it, especially a genre we prefer. If it is reproduced why would we need to know where or what it is coming from to make an 'audiophile assesment? Why do I want to gauge 'video sound' differently from my system's sound? Do I need to lower or dumb down expectations? Do I need different standards for one versus the other? Whenever a video shows up it seems like part of the discussion centers around the technology of the video, what sort of phone or microphone is it, what did you hear it with, etc. etc. It all seems somewhat self-absorbed.

But the real approachment of absurdity, for me, comes from considering the reproduction of a reproduction and considering should I assess the reproduction of a reproduction - against what it reproduces or the real thing? How many steps and chains from the original are you willing to go? It's like the start of a William Gibson novel - the sky was the color of a television tuned to a dead channel... reproduced. I enjoy the methodology stuff too, but are we reduced to spending our time refining our evaluatory preferences for gauging copies of copies?

I get why people do it and it certainly makes for discussion and there are days sometimes even weeks when quality topics of interest are shy. It may be a higher quality filler than say rhodium versus byzantium.

What I like most about 'videos' are the varying background performances they offer for reading WBF.
 

the sound of Tao

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Even glimpses of characteristics of the system (and room) are better than none. A video that the owner then corroborates and also defines in ways as to how representative it is with some descriptions of the sound does generate some understanding.

All our systems are works in progress and sharing and getting feedback is positive even if it includes areas where things could be worked upon. I don’t think anyone is arguing this is any kind of exact representation but just snapshots that can generate some additional and valuable discussion at times. Sometimes it’s just really nice to hear the music as well.

My system is middle of the road in the context of those represented on WBF but I listen to music on it all the time and get great connection through it... and I’m sure when people look at a video of it they aren’t expecting any more than a reasonably accessible setup that’s been put together through time and also with a fair bit of experimentation. It isn’t a perfect system at all and even just recording it on a phone and watching back enables me to get some distance and occasional perspective and for me also an affirmation of the sense of the essential spirit that it presents. But also it acts as a record of change as well. It’s another layer to experience... but not the final frontier into any absolute truth. They are enjoyable to some and not so much to others. I appreciate that people share them here in good faith.
 

Ron Resnick

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Yes. Many people do, others do not. I learned a lot from making the videos from my tonearm comparison. Sharing them was fun, others seemed to enjoy them, and I learned more about critical listening. I might have more to learn than others here.

That's because you did it in the only way that might make sense: everything is identical except the one variable you changed -- the tonearm.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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How is this different from how some readers take random posts and draw random conclusions?

video is a different thing than words. look at media, and observe a video literally changed the world. don't be naive.
 
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the sound of Tao

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I think this is theoretically a very interesting topic in as much as it speaks to the issues of evaluation and references and how we gauge what we like. I say 'theoretically' because if it is taken seriously it, for me, starts approaching the absurd.

First, sound waves hit our bodies, if it is music, we audiophiles 'consider it' - we immediately know if it's live or reproduced. If it is live we may very well enjoy it, especially a genre we prefer. If it is reproduced why would we need to know where or what it is coming from to make an 'audiophile assesment? Why do I want to gauge 'video sound' differently from my system's sound? Do I need to lower or dumb down expectations? Do I need different standards for one versus the other? Whenever a video shows up it seems like part of the discussion centers around the technology of the video, what sort of phone or microphone is it, what did you hear it with, etc. etc. It all seems somewhat self-absorbed.

But the real approachment of absurdity, for me, comes from considering the reproduction of a reproduction and considering should I assess the reproduction of a reproduction - against what it reproduces or the real thing? How many steps and chains from the original are you willing to go? It's like the start of a William Gibson novel - the sky was the color of a television tuned to a dead channel... reproduced. I enjoy the methodology stuff too, but are we reduced to spending our time refining our evaluatory preferences for gauging copies of copies?

I get why people do it and it certainly makes for discussion and there are days sometimes even weeks when quality topics of interest are shy. It may be a higher quality filler than say rhodium versus byzantium.

What I like most about 'videos' are the varying background performances they offer for reading WBF.

Tim I had thought Byzantium was still as yet unobtainium and yet way more suffixium than prefixium unlike the ever elusive ununenium... but perhaps then we just digressium :).

With the videos I also think that if we consider them more as an experience rather than as certain evidence but that they also can hint at some things and throw some small additional light or delight or just some lightness in our discovery of what all these things that we do read so much about can then in some ways perhaps be like.
 

bonzo75

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video is a different thing than words. look at media, and observe a video literally changed the world. don't be naive.

That is just at the start, if someone posts only one random video. If system changes and descriptions are conveyed through multiple videos (accompanying words), I find it better than words only. Gian's threads are conveying cart characteristics well. Short of trying them in your own set up for compatibility, there is not much you are going to learn about them in any other way, and previous descriptions of carts alone were not sufficient to convey better what was coming across through the videos. These are much better in helping make a decision
 
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tima

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Tim I had thought Byzantium was still as yet unobtainium and yet way more suffixium than prefixium unlike the ever elusive ununenium... but perhaps then we just digressium :).

With the videos I also think that if we consider them more as an experience rather than as certain evidence but that they also can hint at some things and throw some small additional light or delight or just some lightness in our discovery of what all these things that we do read so much about can then in some ways perhaps be like.

What can I say ... it was the second -ium that came to mind. Shoud I have said Dimaggio?

Wrt videos, sure they are an experience and maybe even evidence of something. And I can get some small light or delight from listening to them, as I read. Guess I'm not into critical listening of videos or going back and forth between a couple or three of them listening for whatever point they are trying to make. Ergo not into thinking about standards or references of assessing them. We still have a lot to come to grips with that topic for first-reproduction systems and even live music - that's challenge enough for me.
 
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zerostargeneral

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Apr 14, 2018
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Dear Tima,

As an ultra smart and fantastically well read individual,you must surely reason the purpose of posting clips of sound in order to gain
The quality of the specific vinyl playing at the time?

The clips put forward without my permission were embedded in Ebay listings so that potential bidders could know whether the condition of the grooves was acceptable or not.

Gibson you say? May I raise with Kafka?

The Orwellian nature of the farm seems to turn the animals into "book burners"?

Kindest regards,G.
 
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bonzo75

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Dear Tima,

As an ultra smart and fantastically well read individual,you must surely reason the purpose of posting clips of sound in order to gain
The quality of the specific vinyl playing at the time?

The clips put forward without my permission were embedded in Ebay listings so that potential bidders could know whether the condition of the grooves was acceptable or not.

Gibson you say? May I raise with Kafka?

The Orwellian nature of the farm seems to turn the animals into "book burners"?

Kindest regards,G.

These were on your YouTube channel
 

the sound of Tao

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What can I say ... it was the second -ium that came to mind. Shoud I have said Dimaggio?

Wrt videos, sure they are an experience and maybe even evidence of something. And I can get some small light or delight from listening to them, as I read. Guess I'm not into critical listening of videos or going back and forth between a couple or three of them listening for whatever point they are trying to make. Ergo not into thinking about standards or references of assessing them. We still have a lot to come to grips with that topic for first-reproduction systems and even live music - that's challenge enough for me.
It is a relatively new twist so discovering their value is part of seeing how they play out I guess. They are a way to get more music up on the forum though I also appreciate people posting straight commercially produced video clips from the net. But anything that infuses extra music and brings us back to the core of it all is also potentially a good thing.

It’s probably also another point of sharing that might draw more people from sitting watching the forum without joining in. It would be good to open up more discussion about what people are hearing (rather than just what they are preferring) and if it also generates the owner of the system to find more voice on how to describe their own system as well if listeners discern things and put questions to them.

I figure they’ll fly or fall eventually largely if they are proven to have value (or not) and discovering what the value could be may be part of people here just trying them out.
 

howiebrou

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Jun 29, 2012
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I try not to take these things too seriously. Posting videos is fun and you can definitely get an idea of the difference between equipment unless there isn't any or you are deaf. There is no such thing as doing justice to one's system on a video. We all have different phones, some of us have noisy rooms (like mine) or don't warm up their gear enough before recording. Yesterday i recorded a little from a brand new pair of Kharma speakers which are only 2 days old and devoid of bass but it's still educational to watch. As for live music. I have never heard a system that replicates live music even close. And all concert halls sound different anyway so it's no point trying to replicate imo. To me it's just a bit of fun. I try not to be too serious these days, at least about these videos.
 

bonzo75

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The main problem with videos seems to be what different people are trying to convey and what different people are trying to get out of it.

The listeners are on a gamut from I think this one video qualifies as an entire system audition, to those who try to get characteristics of system and component over time through compares. This is no different from how different people treat hifi shows. It's also no different to someone looking to buy a piece of gear who will do so at the slightest positive written comments while others will do a more deep dive

The system owners have a varying range of sensitivity which is reflected into the videos. For the posters please think if your video is representative of what you heard before posting. Some are, and some aren't. I am sure by now many who haven't posted must have heard their own videos played back
 
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tima

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Dear Tima,

As an ultra smart and fantastically well read individual,you must surely reason the purpose of posting clips of sound in order to gain
The quality of the specific vinyl playing at the time?

The clips put forward without my permission were embedded in Ebay listings so that potential bidders could know whether the condition of the grooves was acceptable or not.

Gibson you say? May I raise with Kafka?

The Orwellian nature of the farm seems to turn the animals into "book burners"?

Kindest regards,G.

Good day to you dear General,

Posting clips to appraise vinyl quality is certainly reasonable. It can add valuable information beyond the typical visual grading. I can endorse doing that and encourage sellers, though today it's pretty rare - at least in the circles I know. Adopted as common practice it could revolutionize the record trade.

Posting of clips also can introduce one to composers, performers, performances, labels and versions. Personally I have gained from such on WBF, being introduced to several performers I'd not known before. Several of those are recordings were sourced from yourself. So thanks for that.

I was primarily reacting to the use of videos to compare equipment and systems through videos. Sonics, not music. I understood the OP as asking about references for assesment in doing such and took his topic to be more methodological than about music itself or record quality. Perhaps I am influenced by the reviewing activity of comparing pieces of equipment in 'real life' as it were - hard enough.

Doing that activity with audio reproductions of pieces of equipment in use has little interest and if I read a published review based on that I could not give it much credence. (To the extent people give reviews any credence.) Granted it is a small way to gain access to equipment one may never otherwise hear, I remain sceptical of using it for comparison with any seriousness.

I doubt listening to videos will turn me into a giant cockroach. So that's a plus. I chose Gibson largely for the virtualizing nature of it all. The latest version of book burning is google hiding. Thanks for your note.

Best,
Tima
 
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tima

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It is a relatively new twist so discovering their value is part of seeing how they play out I guess. They are a way to get more music up on the forum though I also appreciate people posting straight commercially produced video clips from the net. But anything that infuses extra music and brings us back to the core of it all is also potentially a good thing.

It’s probably also another point of sharing that might draw more people from sitting watching the forum without joining in. It would be good to open up more discussion about what people are hearing (rather than just what they are preferring) and if it also generates the owner of the system to find more voice on how to describe their own system as well if listeners discern things and put questions to them.

I figure they’ll fly or fall eventually largely if they are proven to have value (or not) and discovering what the value could be may be part of people here just trying them out.

Yes - I agree with much of what you wrote.

Wrt finding "more voice on how to describe their own systems..." if it helps build or reinforce a shared vocabularly or at least lays out the vocabulary people are using for the same instance, then yes, that's a good thing.
 

tima

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The listeners are on a gamut from I think this one video qualifies as an entire system audition, to those who try to get characteristics of system and component over time through compares. This is no different from how different people treat hifi shows.

Okay. But it's such a fundamentally different sort of experience - at least for me. Sitting here at my computer listening to a video through the computer vs going into my room and listening to my system. I guess my mind set is different - direct experience vs indirect. Others can feel different about that, and that's fine. Even going to a room where you've never been to listen to a system you've never heard is hard - much less a distracting audio show - I need several visits.
 

bonzo75

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Okay. But it's such a fundamentally different sort of experience - at least for me. Sitting here at my computer listening to a video through the computer vs going into my room and listening to my system. I guess my mind set is different - direct experience vs indirect. Others can feel different about that, and that's fine. Even going to a room where you've never been to listen to a system you've never heard is hard - much less a distracting audio show - I need several visits.

Exactly. With videos you can get several visits through time. Again not same as visiting in room multiple times, but better than visiting a hifi show. Also, with requests you get more controlled listening, like with Gian's videos.

No one was expecting a Michael Fremer assessment of Gian's carts. All that was expected was if that gave a flavor enough to investigate some components further
 

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