Taiko Audio Extreme Music Server

[Taiko Audio]

I knew that but does it matter which output one uses if the 2 best outputs are powering the Router and the Switch. IOW @Taiko Audio which output would you recommend for the NAS...would this be the time to consider an unfiltered outlet to the NAS

I don’t know, haven’t tried, we only tested the one single scenario I shared here. We’re planning to do some more testing in the near future. Things are however slightly hectic here currently so it may take some time

 

[nenon]

When it comes to DCD filters, there is no best/second best or right/wrong. It's all about personal preference. From my experience, it's not even system dependent.

I've had quite a few people over around Axpona, and I did an experiment with the DCD by moving the router between ALT1 and ALT2. There was no consensus. About half of the people preferred ALT1 in my system and the other half preferred ALT2.

For example, I preferred ALT2, but @austinpop preferred ALT1. And I can understand why as it's clear to hear the differences.
I tried to be a nice host and kept my router at ALT1 for @austinpop, but as soon as he left I switched back to ALT2 . He was not the only person who preferred ALT1. I had two other people who preferred ALT1 and another two who picked ALT2. Hence my conclusion that this is personal preference and not system dependent.

It's good to know what Emile prefers but at the end of the day the DCD has 3 different filter types, so we can play with them and pick the one we like best.

 

[Taiko Audio]

When it comes to DCD filters, there is no best/second best or right/wrong. It's all about personal preference. From my experience, it's not even system dependent.

I've had quite a few people over around Axpona, and I did an experiment with the DCD by moving the router between ALT1 and ALT2. There was no consensus. About half of the people preferred ALT1 in my system and the other half preferred ALT2.

For example, I preferred ALT2, but @austinpop preferred ALT1. And I can understand why as it's clear to hear the differences.
I tried to be a nice host and kept my router at ALT1 for @austinpop, but as soon as he left I switched back to ALT2 . He was not the only person who preferred ALT1. I had two other people who preferred ALT1 and another two who picked ALT2. Hence my conclusion that this is personal preference and not system dependent.

It's good to know what Emile prefers but at the end of the day the DCD has 3 different filter types, so we can play with them and pick the one we like best.

I personally prefer switch on ALT2 , router on default. @audioquattr shares my preference. @Christiaan Punter preferred switch on ALT1, router on default, tested in the same system, similar results I guess

FWIW the NAS was plugged into the second default filter port for the test me and @audioquattr ran.

@audioquattr / Jeroen joined the team in a more official capacity now btw, we’ll share more details on the makeup of our current team, he has been of invaluable help for much longer already, co-developing upgrades for about 2 years already.

 

[steve williams]

I personally prefer switch on ALT2 , router on default

That is what I found to be my preference

 

[nonesup]

In my case:
Taiko Switch Default
Taiko Router Alt_2
ISP Modem-Router Alt_1

 

[oldmustang]

When it comes to DCD filters, there is no best/second best or right/wrong. It's all about personal preference. From my experience, it's not even system dependent.

I've had quite a few people over around Axpona, and I did an experiment with the DCD by moving the router between ALT1 and ALT2. There was no consensus. About half of the people preferred ALT1 in my system and the other half preferred ALT2.

For example, I preferred ALT2, but @austinpop preferred ALT1. And I can understand why as it's clear to hear the differences.
I tried to be a nice host and kept my router at ALT1 for @austinpop, but as soon as he left I switched back to ALT2 . He was not the only person who preferred ALT1. I had two other people who preferred ALT1 and another two who picked ALT2. Hence my conclusion that this is personal preference and not system dependent.

It's good to know what Emile prefers but at the end of the day the DCD has 3 different filter types, so we can play with them and pick the one we like best.

Amen to that.

I have three NAS here and one of them used to be where I served music from. However, I am not planning on bringing any of them into the living room to plug into the Taiko router and/or power from the DCD.

For my application a large-capacity USB drive (which can be powered from the DCD) is what I'm going to try first, for a variety of reasons.

First and foremost, it's quick, easy and I already have several hi-cap USB drives I've used for multiple back-ups of the music I have stored onboard the Extreme. So, it's also paid for already. And I have several spare DC power cords on hand, too.

Also, considerations of acoustic noise from a NAS in the living room are real -- all of my NAS with five drives and cooling fans are acoustically noisy. And all of the NAS I have are not amenable to external DC power without major surgery, which isn't going to happen.

So while there are no doubt differences in USB drives in terms of potential sound quality considerations, at this point in time I'm just not going to stress over them.

Now, I know this doesn't help those whose library is beyond even the largest currently available USB drive. Although one possible scenario is to divide one's library across several USB drives -- one for classical, one for everything else just for one example. Just plug and play the one that has the music you want to listen to at the moment.

Now, I can keep one of the NAS in my office in another room, on another AC circuit and use one of the ethernet cables I already have run into the living room to network the NAS into the Taiko router, and will no doubt try that experiment too when my Olympus gets here. But at this point in time I feel it's way to premature to forecast which will actually sound better, if one solution does sound better at all.

Steve Z

 

[oldmustang]

Welcome @audioquattr / Jeroen!

Steve Z

 

[ctydwn]

Wanted to share some additional appreciation of the DCD filters. I had actually found I preferred "default/default" when I tested the permutations a few months ago. Since then I have made a couple minor changes and then had Stirling Trayle visit (wonderful person and highly recommended imo) for speaker optimization. He tweaked the toe in, fixed and matched distance to listening position, matched the height of the speakers (right side of room slightly higher) and then matched the rake angles to the thousandth degree. My right speaker had been 0.274 deg back and left speaker 0.050 deg back. Now both .011 deg fwd. So much for having used my iphone as a leveler

The sound is so much more cohesive, and relaxing, as if my brain wouldn't let me sink into the chair with driver timing misaligned to my ears. Additional nuances now audible as well. Over the next week or two I did feel, while really dialed in, the sound may have taken a very slight analytical turn or perhaps overly articulate if that makes sense.

Decided to retry the 7 combinations of filters (excluding unfiltered). Found that I now prefer switch ALT 1 and router default. Close second switch default and router ALT 1.

The new preference soothes and improved the enjoyment of vocals with additional saturation and no harshness or brittleness, mid bass also improved with tonal density and texture. Of the 6 tracks I used, I really couldn't hear differences with 3 of them. The other 3 however helped me enough.

I am very pleased that I could nudge my system just a bit in a more positive direction to fit my preference and adapt to the changes in the system. For me, the changes are in the more subtle category, not a component change of course, nor even on the order of a big tube change on the Horizon. Which I am actually very glad about as I don't have to worry about larger changes to the music resulting from just changing filters as I wouldn't want to be changing the character that much given everything that the switch/router/and extreme are already doing. The DCD filter options are a fantastic tool imho and will remember to recheck when the new Horizon w/ XDMI built in (on order) and the Olympus arrive here... thanks again to Emile and the Taiko Team

 

[kyoya78]

There are reasons why some people may want to stay away from adding a NAS. Some of them in no particular order:

1. Spinning drives generate noise. You may not want that noise in your listening room. But since it's recommended to have the NAS connected to the DCD, it will most likely need to be in your listening room. They also vibrate, and so you need to be careful with placement. You may not want to put it on top of your dCS Vivaldi Master Clock for example.
2. You can get a NAS with Solid State Drives but those are more expensive. At that point internal storage in the Olympus might be more convenient.
3. You are adding another device to your system. That means more complexity, more cables, possibly another shelf, etc. One of the benefits of Olympus XDMI is that it's an all in one solution, especially if it also replaces your DAC.
4. You may need a beefier linear power supply to be able to power all of your devices.
5. You may not have a DCD... in that case you will probably need to buy one to get the best out of a NAS.
6. Last but not least - Technical Support and Usability - For those who are not technologically inclined, managing a NAS can be challenging. While it typically operates smoothly, troubleshooting issues can be frustrating.

Ultimately, the decision to add a NAS should start with assessing your specific needs. Consider how much of your music collection is unavailable on streaming services or consists of high-quality recordings not matched by streaming offerings. For myself, I find that less than 1TB of my music isn’t available on platforms like Qobuz or Tidal, making the default 4TB internal storage of the Olympus more than sufficient. Therefore, I'm opting out of using a NAS.

Emile shared with us that streaming sounds better than local. That's a dream come true for me. I am planning to use Qobuz / Tidal and avoid the complexity of adding a NAS to my system.

But of course you might be in a different situation than me. In that case you can either get the convenience of adding extra internal storage or you can get a NAS. It seems like there is a slight sound quality preference towards an external NAS. But it also seems to be so small that convenience may win. If I was in that situation, I would still start with the default 4TB storage and compare that to a NAS and then decide which way to go - either upgrade the internal storage or keep the NAS.

I am amazed by this.

With Olympus Server, does this mean the streaming sound is better than the sound stored on the internal 4TB of storage?

Is Taiko Router, Switch, and DCD a must?

 

[Taiko Audio]

I am amazed by this.

With Olympus Server, does this mean the streaming sound is better than the sound stored on the internal 4TB of storage?

Is Taiko Router, Switch, and DCD a must?

Yes and no. I can now elaborate on this topic in more detail as we spend more time running extensive tests on this yesterday.

1) The Olympus bolsters a larger degree of immunity towards network noise / disturbances then the Extreme. Do note that the network card in the Olympus is not the exact same network card as used in the Extreme, it has been adjusted to perform better running off battery power. To get ahead on a follow up question I can foresee coming up next: No this is not an upgrade for the Extreme, the Extremes total system design architecture simply differs.

2) What this accomplishes is that the DCD/Switch/Router no longer significantly impacts local file playback quality. Sound quality of local file playback is more or less the same whether we run RJ45 directly to the wall outlet connecting to the building main switch.

3) In this scenario, without DCD/Switch/Router, local file playback is significantly better then streaming from Tidal/Qobuz, and/or playback from a NAS.

4) When you add the DCD/Switch/Router, the story changes, this elevates streaming from Qobuz to the same level as local file playback, assuming the same file format, to this end we have purchased and downloaded several albums from Qobuz in a .flac format, in the same resolution as offered by the Qobuz streaming services to ensure as much as we can we're using the same files. Copying these files to a NAS connected to the Router provides more or less identical results. A small exception is streaming from Tidal, for reasons unknown that sounds a bit better then everything else here, that goes for both our 1Gb internet fiber service in Oldenzaal, as for the 100Mbit internet fiber subscription at @audioquattr . We're aware many prefer the sound of Qobuz, perhaps this varies on a global location scale ( @audioquattr lives about 50km away from here), but admittedly we simply don't know why.

5) Inevitably you may ask what happens if you remove the local storage from the Olympus. Undeniably this does make a small difference, if you are hunting for the last ~2% of ultimate performance, removing local storage and using Tidal/Qobuz/NAS with DCD/Router/Switch as your file source, does ultimately produce the absolute best Sound Quality here.

As a footnote, I would like to add we're not talking changes at the level of changing interconnects/power cords or even components here, with the only exception being streaming without DCD/Router/Switch, that has a very considerable impact. Hence my answer to the specific question: "Is Taiko Router, Switch, and DCD a must?" would be, only if you want your Tidal/Qobuz streaming to be on par with local file playback, similarly, if you have a very large library, and want to use a NAS with virtually unlimited storage expansion capabilities, at a much lower cost then internal storage, then in our opinion, the DCD/Switch/Router would be a "must" as well.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Wanted to share some additional appreciation of the DCD filters. I had actually found I preferred "default/default" when I tested the permutations a few months ago. Since then I have made a couple minor changes and then had Stirling Trayle visit (wonderful person and highly recommended imo) for speaker optimization. He tweaked the toe in, fixed and matched distance to listening position, matched the height of the speakers (right side of room slightly higher) and then matched the rake angles to the thousandth degree. My right speaker had been 0.274 deg back and left speaker 0.050 deg back. Now both .011 deg fwd. So much for having used my iphone as a leveler lol

The sound is so much more cohesive, and relaxing, as if my brain wouldn't let me sink into the chair with driver timing misaligned to my ears. Additional nuances now audible as well. Over the next week or two I did feel, while really dialed in, the sound may have taken a very slight analytical turn or perhaps overly articulate if that makes sense.

Decided to retry the 7 combinations of filters (excluding unfiltered). Found that I now prefer switch ALT 1 and router default. Close second switch default and router ALT 1.

The new preference soothes and improved the enjoyment of vocals with additional saturation and no harshness or brittleness, mid bass also improved with tonal density and texture. Of the 6 tracks I used, I really couldn't hear differences with 3 of them. The other 3 however helped me enough.

I am very pleased that I could nudge my system just a bit in a more positive direction to fit my preference and adapt to the changes in the system. For me, the changes are in the more subtle category, not a component change of course, nor even on the order of a big tube change on the Horizon. Which I am actually very glad about as I don't have to worry about larger changes to the music resulting from just changing filters as I wouldn't want to be changing the character that much given everything that the switch/router/and extreme are already doing. The DCD filter options are a fantastic tool imho and will remember to recheck when the new Horizon w/ XDMI built in (on order) and the Olympus arrive here... thanks again to Emile and the Taiko Team

Interestingly changing amplifiers here, from Conrad Johnson ART88/ART108A to Zanden Chukoh / Trafomatic Elysium changes our preference from ALT2 - switch / default - router to ALT1 - switch / default router.

 

[SwissTom]

5) Inevitably you may ask what happens if you remove the local storage from the Olympus. Undeniably this does make a small difference, if you are hunting for the last ~2% of ultimate performance, removing local storage and using Tidal/Qobuz/NAS with DCD/Router/Switch as your file source, does ultimately produce the absolute best Sound Quality here.

@Taiko Audio

Hi Emile,

Two quick questions related to the above, if I may


1) Is the benefit of removing internal storage still valid in the case of Olympus + Olympus I/O?


2) Would this gain remain valid if the NAS were far from the HiFi system?

Like so :

NAS ---> 15 meters cat.7a in wall cable ---> wall socket---> Taiko Router

Cheers,

Thomas

 

[steve williams]

@Taiko Audio

Hi Emile,

Two quick questions, if I may


1) Is the benefit of removing internal storage still valid in the case of Olympus + Olympus I/O?


2) Would this gain remain valid if the NAS were far from the HiFi system?

Like so :

NAS ---> 15 meters cat.7a in wall cable ---> wall socket---> Taiko Router

Cheers,

Thomas

I got the impression from Emile's post that there is benefit to remove the internal storage..

5) Inevitably you may ask what happens if you remove the local storage from the Olympus. Undeniably this does make a small difference, if you are hunting for the last ~2% of ultimate performance, removing local storage and using Tidal/Qobuz/NAS with DCD/Router/Switch as your file source, does ultimately produce the absolute best Sound Quality here.

 

[dminches]

The best guidance that has come out of all this is that currently Roon is equal in sound quality to XDMS while being superior from a usability and UI perspective. XDMS may ultimately surpass Roon with respect to sound quality but that won't be for a while.

 

[cat6man]

maybe i'm the only one confused, but it seems the discussion here is verging towards the olympus and not the extreme. this is making recommendations, such as roon vs. xdms and local vs. nas, very confusing since they differ for the olympus and the extreme. can i suggest that someone clean up this thread and move olympus stuff to an olympus-only thread?

 

[SwissTom]

I got the impression from Emile's post that there is benefit to remove the internal storage..

Yes and no

I wanted confirmation of that in the context of Olympus + Olympus I/O, not just Olympus.

In the context of the Olympus + Olympus I/O, the XDMI and network cards are no longer on the same data bus.

The effect of storage could be different.


Besides, the effect of 15 metres, if not more, of network cable is not negligible. Moreover, I'd place the dedicated NAS in my network cabinet, with my other NAS, backups, switch, router, etc .

Cheers,

Thomas

 

[Taiko Audio]

@Taiko Audio

Hi Emile,

Two quick questions related to the above, if I may


1) Is the benefit of removing internal storage still valid in the case of Olympus + Olympus I/O?


2) Would this gain remain valid if the NAS were far from the HiFi system?

Like so :

NAS ---> 15 meters cat.7a in wall cable ---> wall socket---> Taiko Router

Cheers,

Thomas

1) Haven’t tested but most likely reduced or even non existent

2) Cable length will not matter

 

[Levitator]

Thanks for

When it comes to DCD filters, there is no best/second best or right/wrong. It's all about personal preference. From my experience, it's not even system dependent.

I've had quite a few people over around Axpona, and I did an experiment with the DCD by moving the router between ALT1 and ALT2. There was no consensus. About half of the people preferred ALT1 in my system and the other half preferred ALT2.

For example, I preferred ALT2, but @austinpop preferred ALT1. And I can understand why as it's clear to hear the differences.
I tried to be a nice host and kept my router at ALT1 for @austinpop, but as soon as he left I switched back to ALT2 . He was not the only person who preferred ALT1. I had two other people who preferred ALT1 and another two who picked ALT2. Hence my conclusion that this is personal preference and not system dependent.

It's good to know what Emile prefers but at the end of the day the DCD has 3 different filter types, so we can play with them and pick the one we like best.

Thanks for sharing @nenon - out of interest, did you have the switch set to ‘default’ with those router settings?

 

[gfroman]

We have been enjoying our Extreme for the last several months
Recently we lost connection to the network
Tried rebooting,etc
Occurred that we only used mConnect as a trial basis and thought it was only needed for the initial setup of the Extreme
Do we need to maintain a paid monthly/annual subscription to mConnect to maintain our network connection for Roon?
The Firewall is turned off so that isn't the problem.
Cannot understand why it just happened since nothing has changed in my system?
Thanks!

 

[dminches]

I run Roon on my Extreme and have never used mConnect.