Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Kris]

OK so I am having a hard time seeing how the router and switch settings like MTU, uplink/downlink speeds can have any effect on performance. The network gear's job is to get the file to the Extreme. Once it is in memory this is when the Extreme does it thing. Now I'm assuming the Extreme doesn't play the file until the entire file is loaded in memory. To me this is a major advantage of the Extreme.

Now if a music server (insert name) plays the file without going to memory (buffered), I can see how this can affect the sound.

You might also say:
I have hard time seeing how the softwere settings can have any effect on performance of my computer……
well I think they do.
softwere and its settings tell the gear what to do and how quick.

MTU is like a bag for your shopping things.
when is to small you need to go home few times to empty it .
that takes time.
if your bag is bigger you can pack more things inside it and no need to visit home as many times.
also if you will try to put to many things in your bag thy will fall out of it.
this is colled packet fragmentation that will require more work to put that back together.

 

[bryans]

You might also say:
I have hard time seeing how the softwere settings can have any effect on performance of my computer……
well I think they do.
softwere and its settings tell the gear what to do and how quick.

MTU is like a bag for your shopping things.
when is to small you need to go home few times to empty it .
that takes time.
if your bag is bigger you can pack more things inside it and no need to visit home as many times.
also if you will try to put to many things in your bag thy will fall out of it.
this is colled packet fragmentation that will require more work to put that back together.

Sorry but I don't agree with you. First I'm not talking about software, I'm talking about the network hardware, who's job is to send the file to the Taiko server. As stated by Taiko, the file is loaded into memory and then played/sent to the DAC. Fragmentation is not a factor at this point. Now if the Taiko server was sending part of the file to the DAC I could agree with you but unless I read something wrong, this is not the case.

Software is a completely different issue.

 

[wil]

OK so I am having a hard time seeing how the router and switch settings like MTU, uplink/downlink speeds can have any effect on performance. The network gear's job is to get the file to the Extreme. Once it is in memory this is when the Extreme does it thing. Now I'm assuming the Extreme doesn't play the file until the entire file is loaded in memory. To me this is a major advantage of the Extreme.

Now if a music server (insert name) plays the file without going to memory (buffered), I can see how this can affect the sound.

This is a bit of a confusing subject to me as well. It would also seem that both streamed and local files, if they are both buffered in memory, would both benefit from playback with the network cable disconnected. But from my experience, only local files can be played back sans the network. I suppose there is some basic difference in their respective buffering/playback?

 

[Taiko Audio]

if they are both buffered in memory, would both benefit from playback with the network cable disconnected.

That is not the case here. It would be nice to have that for everybody though.

 

[wil]

Evidence is mounting towards the router having an higher then previously thought influence where switches may just be "Band-Aids". A higher MTU can increase throughput of large data streams with the trade-off of higher latencies, especially for smaller packets. Stacking switches increases latency, so do longer ethernet cable runs. I do think I posted this before but I have experimented with 100 meter spools of cat5e cable, initially just as a functional test for the switch we were developing, but interestingly it produces similar effects as adding switches. Note that I do not actually prefer adding switches or long ethernet cable runs here beyond what is necessary to function, to my ears this all adds various degrees of colouration, in some areas this can admittedly be "pleasant", but there are always trade-offs. I'm currently running more experiments and for sure separating the Wi-Fi access point from the router appears to be beneficial. There may just be an "audiophile" router coming from us in the future to solve this "puzzle" once and for all.

The problem with an audiophile router for me, and other AT&T customers, is that ATT supplies a combined modem/router and discourages use of other routers. I did get very helpful advice from @ray-dude on a process that he used to bypass their router, but ultimately didn't seem practical for a very not-tech-savvy me.

I don't know if other ISP's make it difficult like ATT...

 

[bryans]

The problem with an audiophile router for me, and other AT&T customers, is that ATT supplies a combined modem/router and discourages use of other routers. I did get very helpful advice from @ray-dude on a process that he used to bypass their router, but ultimately didn't seem practical for a very not-tech-savvy me.

I don't know if other ISP's make it difficult like ATT...

Yes I know most ISPs will list a certain set of routers they support. As you can imagine trying to support a crazy amount customer issues can be a big problem. Just imagine you call into their help desk and say I have router X and it doesn't work. The ISP most likely will not have any knowledge or experience with your router, especially if it is an audiophile router.

I own my ISP router (didn't want to pay the monthly rental charge) but it is the same one my ISP use.

 

[oldmustang]

The problem with an audiophile router for me, and other AT&T customers, is that ATT supplies a combined modem/router and discourages use of other routers. I did get very helpful advice from @ray-dude on a process that he used to bypass their router, but ultimately didn't seem practical for a very not-tech-savvy me.

I don't know if other ISP's make it difficult like ATT...

CenturyLink is the same. A combined modem/router for their DSL service (I have trouble calling something so slow a "service", but there you are) and though they say you can buy your own modem they are very limited in their tech support for anything not theirs.

Steve Z

 

[Kris]

Sorry but I don't agree with you. First I'm not talking about software, I'm talking about the network hardware, who's job is to send the file to the Taiko server. As stated by Taiko, the file is loaded into memory and then played/sent to the DAC. Fragmentation is not a factor at this point. Now if the Taiko server was sending part of the file to the DAC I could agree with you but unless I read something wrong, this is not the case.

Software is a completely different issue.

Show us the network that dosnt have softwere please !

 

[bryans]

Show us the network that dosnt have softwere please !

Clearly we are talking about different things. As stated by Taiko, their server puts the file into memory. After the file is in memory nothing on the network should have any effect on the sound. The file goes from the Taiko's memory via USB (etc.) into the DAC.

 

[oldmustang]

Different topic: Evidently Roon is rolling out another update currently scheduled for 3 November. One of the items that caught my eye was their move to Microsoft .NET to improve Linux performance. This will require the installation of libicu or an updated version of libicu. Here is a note from Roon on their community platform:

Upcoming Linux Performance Improvements

What’s happening? In an effort to increase performance on Linux platforms, our engineers have been working on moving Roon from its current Mono runtime environment to Microsoft’s .NET runtime. These changes should result in performance improvements for anyone using a Linux Core. These...

community.roonlabs.com

Just wondering if the Taiko team has heard about this. I almost never run Roon but it would be good to keep the version resident on my Extreme current for those rare occasions when I want to demonstrate to someone just how much better TAS sounds.

Steve Z

 

[Taiko Audio]

Different topic: Evidently Roon is rolling out another update currently scheduled for 3 November. One of the items that caught my eye was their move to Microsoft .NET to improve Linux performance. This will require the installation of libicu or an updated version of libicu. Here is a note from Roon on their community platform:

Upcoming Linux Performance Improvements

What’s happening? In an effort to increase performance on Linux platforms, our engineers have been working on moving Roon from its current Mono runtime environment to Microsoft’s .NET runtime. These changes should result in performance improvements for anyone using a Linux Core. These...

community.roonlabs.com

Just wondering if the Taiko team has heard about this. I almost never run Roon but it would be good to keep the version resident on my Extreme current for those rare occasions when I want to demonstrate to someone just how much better TAS sounds.

Steve Z

Hi Steve,

The Extreme does not run a Linux Operating System but Windows, I assume it's already using Microsoft .NET then as that comes with Windows by default.

 

[oldmustang]

Hi Steve,

The Extreme does not run a Linux Operating System but Windows, I assume it's already using Microsoft .NET then as that comes with Windows by default.

Thank you, Emile. As my post demonstrates for all to see, I've been a Macintosh user since 1985. When it comes to anything Windows I should just sit quietly and learn from my elders. . .

Steve Z

 

[David MS]

What is he room width?

13 feet, length is 24 feet.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

13 feet, length is 24 feet.

Welcome David ms to wbf.

 

[seeteeyou]

Now that Apple Music offers lossless I would consider a subscription to have access to those missing tracks. But will TAS have the ability to include Apple Music in the future?

FYI - Windows Subsystem for Android (WSA) is available on Windows 11

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/64249-windows-subsystem-for-android-wsa-on-windows-11/

Sideloading APK files should be OK as shown above, therefore it's just a matter of figuring out if WSA were able to work with Virtual Audio Cable / HQ Player

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/the-hqplayer-thread.11376/

And then here's yet another Android app that could also support Apple Music

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.co.radius.neplayer_ver2
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.co.radius.neplayer_lite_an

?Apple Music???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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Other than that, I could only think of using something similar to this Wave Input plugin with Virtual Audio Cable

https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?35718-Announce-Wave-Input-plugin-v1-00
https://sourceforge.net/projects/bpaplugins/files/OtherPlugins/WaveInputWin-v105.ZIP

Maybe an iPad Pro with M1 chip @ 5nm might be considered a viable option since its latency should be fairly decent

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits...nd-why-audiophiles-need-a-new-ipad-pro-r1053/

Apple M1 vs Intel for Audio: A Real World Benchmark
https://www.bluecataudio.com/Blog/behind-the-scenes/apple-m1-vs-intel-for-audio-a-benchmark/

They just announced something even better recently but most likely macOS Monterey still couldn't switch sampling rates automatically

https://www.tomsguide.com/face-off/m1-pro-vs-m1-max-whats-the-difference

Both chips feature the same underlying architecture, a scaled-up version of what we saw in the M1. They're both SoCs (systems-on-chips), which means they're designed for higher efficiency and decreased latency by integrating the CPU and GPU together and letting them draw from the same pool of unified RAM memory.

Of course passive cooling could be quite tricky for both M1 Pro and M1 Max.

---

Add this RME MADIface Pro to iPad Pro

https://www.rme-audio.de/madiface-pro.html

The MADIface Pro can be used in Class Compliant mode achieving 24 channels of I/O (4 analog, 20 channels MADI) on an iPad™.

Apple Music could be streamed from iPadOS to Windows via HDSPe MADI FX

https://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/91/hdspe-madi-fx-interface/

---

So we're still jumping right through so many hoops since Apple Music ain't as open as either Qobuz or TIDAL, even the objectivists could only connect iOS devices to USB DACs directly but not much could be done in terms of non-Apple hardware

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-audio-playback-methods-agglomeration.24673/

Though we could put Android (e.g. LineageOS or OmniROM) on an Intel Optane and then add that drive to this upcoming streamer

https://www.pi2design.com/coming-soon.html

Root it for Apple Music / NePLAYER

https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/krq85e/_/gibd2cr

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/finally-direct-streaming-from-android.235835/#post-3859092

I can even stream Apple Music now from Android via DLNA!

Somehow lossy Spotify would sound better than lossless Qobuz

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/finally-direct-streaming-from-android.235835/#post-3863086

It all works as described above BUT I then decided to try Squeezeserver (LMS) on my i9 iMac and PiCorePlayer on the RPi. WOW, significantly better sound quality, very surprised at the magnitude of the improvement. Even Spotify (via the Spotty LMS plugin, for me a big plus point of LMS over Roon) now easily beats my previous best streaming source of Qobuz/local files played through Moode/RoipeeeXL.

Finally we've got something like this

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...erer-for-windows/?tab=comments#comment-908364

It includes ASIO support, some lossy formats and a few other features.

 

[kswanson27]

Is there any difference in the interval between tracks when using play album starting at track in Serial Play and playing a queue in Batch Play?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Is there any difference in the interval between tracks when using play album starting at track in Serial Play and playing a queue in Batch Play?

It depends, here it makes almost no difference as we have a 1Gb internet subscription. But on a slower link playing an album from Tidal or Qobuz it should be noticeable as downloading a whole album in one go will take longer then a single track.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It depends, here it makes almost no difference as we have a 1Gb internet subscription. But on a slower link playing an album from Tidal or Qobuz it should be noticeable as downloading a whole album in one go will take longer then a single track.

Tidal? i can use Tidal with TAS?

obviously i have not been paying attention. i poked around the TAS settings and info screens and did see Tidal listed as a plug in and i'm apparently up to date, but did not see where to add it to TAS. not a critical thing for sure, but why not have it? wonder how TAS does with MQA?

if it's easy for me to add happy to do it.

 

[kswanson27]

Tidal? i can use Tidal with TAS?

obviously i have not been paying attention. i poked around the TAS settings and info screens and did see Tidal listed as a plug in and i'm apparently up to date, but did not see where to add it to TAS. not a critical thing for sure, but why not have it? wonder how TAS does with MQA?

if it's easy for me to add happy to do it.

Pages 22-25 in the TAS manual. I know this because last week I actually read the manual after I found it on my desktop where it's been for a few months...
Ed tells me MQA is passed through with no action taken.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

thank you Emile, for installing Tidal on my Extreme this morning. exploring now.