Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Blackmorec]

Examining the ‘bits = bits’ argument in detail will reveal that it is unlikely to be anything more than theory. Bits are always in one of 2 states, a static bit file or a mobile bit stream, with entirely different physical attributes. Essentially a bit file are the values that remain after most of a bit stream’s physical attributes are removed. If we compare 2 static bit files we may find them identical, so does this mean that they will sound identical? In theory the answer should be yes, but in practice its no. Why the difference? Because is order to listen to a bit file we must first add back the physical attributes, and the physical attributes are where all the differences in sound lie. A bit file is static and does not interact with its environment. When a bit file is ‘re-energised’ to make a bit stream, that energy interacts with its environment, which has the capacity to distort and change the physical attributes of the bit stream.
Essentially a bit file does not have the capacity to move or create music, only a bit stream can do that and unlike a bit file, which is robust, stable and static a bit stream is delicate, unstable and highly mobile.
In light of the above, the only way to ensure that one bit stream sounds exactly like another is to standardise both its physical attributes and the environment through which it moves. Impractical, to say the least.

 

[spiritofmusic]

It seems like Perfect Sound Forever might have been an oversimplification LOL.

 

[microstrip]

Examining the ‘bits = bits’ argument in detail will reveal that it is unlikely to be anything more than theory. Bits are always in one of 2 states, a static bit file or a mobile bit stream, with entirely different physical attributes. Essentially a bit file are the values that remain after most of a bit stream’s physical attributes are removed. If we compare 2 static bit files we may find them identical, so does this mean that they will sound identical? In theory the answer should be yes, but in practice its no. Why the difference? Because is order to listen to a bit file we must first add back the physical attributes, and the physical attributes are where all the differences in sound lie. A bit file is static and does not interact with its environment. When a bit file is ‘re-energised’ to make a bit stream, that energy interacts with its environment, which has the capacity to distort and change the physical attributes of the bit stream.
Essentially a bit file does not have the capacity to move or create music, only a bit stream can do that and unlike a bit file, which is robust, stable and static a bit stream is delicate, unstable and highly mobile.
In light of the above, the only way to ensure that one bit stream sounds exactly like another is to standardise both its physical attributes and the environment through which it moves. Impractical, to say the least.

Exactly my point. My question was simple - at which points in our digital chains do the bits become "static" and at what points do they become "re-energised" ? What is needed for a bit to be considered "static"?

 

[microstrip]

I get the impression that folks on this thread don’t subscribe to your bits = bits “thing” nor have the appetite for such a debate.
(...)

Perhaps you are right, but I had hope that if we got some answers from experts and experienced people more people would be interested in this thread and we would get some new people in these challenging subjects.

In the past we had great and enlightening technical debates on similar subjects in WBF, for example on why a CD copy could sound better than the original - a philosophical heresy!

 

[the sound of Tao]

Perhaps you are right, but I had hope that if we got some answers from experts and experienced people more people would be interested in this thread and we would get some new people in these challenging subjects.

In the past we had great and enlightening technical debates on similar subjects in WBF, for example on why a CD copy could sound better than the original - a philosophical heresy!

These kind of potentially raging hypotheticals can so easily swamp a good thread like this Micro... if you want to pursue the whys and why nots of the why bits are or aint bits why not do so in a dedicated thread. Clearly the focus here is the Extreme and there are many here already just interested in the specifics of this particular beast.

Derailing an already interesting and very specific thread might not actually be in the best interests of the thread even if you are personally very fascinated by this notion. Nothing in my experience makes me ascribe to the idea... servers all just sound way to different to give credence to this old digital chestnut but go your hardest... just perhaps it might be more helpful if pursued in its very own space.

 

[microstrip]

These kind of potentially raging hypotheticals can so easily swamp a good thread like this Micro... if you want to pursue the whys and why nots of the why bits are or aint bits why not do so in a dedicated thread. Clearly the focus here is the Extreme and there are many here already just interested in the specifics of this particular beast.

Derailing an already interesting and very specific thread might not actually be in the best interests of the thread even if you are personally very fascinated by this notion. Nothing in my experience makes me ascribe to the idea... servers all just sound way to different to give credence to this old digital chestnut but go your hardest... just perhaps it might be more helpful if pursued in its very own space.

Do people really think that fundamental aspects of digital and its very direct connection with a top server such as the Extreme is a potentially raging subject? I am not asking for the effects of the Moon photons on digital sound, just very direct and simple questions.

Perhaps it is not your case, but many readers and me seem to have learned a lot from many questions I have raised and Emile kindly answered at this thread. I am prepared to understand that Emile does not want to answer to specific aspects to protect his intellectual property and specifics of his server, but IMHO this should not stop an honest debate in WBF on general aspects of servers and DACs.

As far as I see it, the infamous "bits are bits" debate has been buried long ago. Trying to recover this argument and the hostile debates of the past on it to avoid any discussion on digital is bringing WBF to the dark ages of audio. Surely IMHO, YMMV.

BTW, if I did not commit all my available funds to the AirForce One I would consider getting an Extreme very soon, just because I have reasons to believe it is the best sounding existing server now and I am a digital listener most of the time. It is why I am particularly interested in this thread.

 

[Rhapsody]

Do people really think that fundamental aspects of digital and its very direct connection with a top server such as the Extreme is a potentially raging subject? I am not asking for the effects of the Moon photons on digital sound, just very direct and simple questions.

Perhaps it is not your case, but many readers and me seem to have learned a lot from many questions I have raised and Emile kindly answered at this thread. I am prepared to understand that Emile does not want to answer to specific aspects to protect his intellectual property and specifics of his server, but IMHO this should not stop an honest debate in WBF on general aspects of servers and DACs.

As far as I see it, the infamous "bits are bits" debate has been buried long ago. Trying to recover this argument and the hostile debates of the past on it to avoid any discussion on digital is bringing WBF to the dark ages of audio. Surely IMHO, YMMV.

BTW, if I did not commit all my available funds to the AirForce One I would consider getting an Extreme very soon, just because I have reasons to believe it is the best sounding existing server now and I am a digital listener most of the time. It is why I am particularly interested in this thread.

As has been already suggested, no one is saying that your questions are not relevant in general. Most of the people participating in this thread find that you are distracting the intent of this thread which is focused on the Extreme and it's implementations, not digital theory.

This thread's intent was not and is not to discuss digital theory. It would be great if you started your own thread with your question(s). Then you can discuss it openly with those that are interested in it.

 

[Blackmorec]

These kind of potentially raging hypotheticals can so easily swamp a good thread like this Micro... if you want to pursue the whys and why nots of the why bits are or aint bits why not do so in a dedicated thread. Clearly the focus here is the Extreme and there are many here already just interested in the specifics of this particular beast.

Derailing an already interesting and very specific thread might not actually be in the best interests of the thread even if you are personally very fascinated by this notion. Nothing in my experience makes me ascribe to the idea... servers all just sound way to different to give credence to this old digital chestnut but go your hardest... just perhaps it might be more helpful if pursued in its very own space.

The question actually arose in relation to the Extreme....to quote microstrip
“But by definition digital playback of bit exact contents should sound similar - IMHO streaming, files stored on NAS , SDD or PCI memory should sound the same”
The physics tells us something different, as discussed above.

Regarding microstrip’s question, what is needed for a bit to considered ‘static’ the answer is simple....the bit isn’t moving. As soon as a bit is moving.....down a wire, through an interface, out of a buffer, through an DAC it requires a different form and needs to be re-energised.

 

[bonzo75]

As has been already suggested, no one is saying that your questions are not relevant in general. Most of the people participating in this thread find that you are distracting the intent of this thread which is focused on the Extreme and it's implementations, not digital theory.

This thread's intent was not and is not to discuss digital theory. It would be great if you started your own thread with your question(s). Then you can discuss it openly with those that are interested in it.

But he wants to directly connect the extreme to his theory without any interface. For him the fact that people on this thread not being interested in bits theory is as perplexing as a primarily digital guy having SME 30/2, and one of EMT 927 and AF1 premium over the extreme

 

[Blackmorec]

As has been already suggested, no one is saying that your questions are not relevant in general. Most of the people participating in this thread find that you are distracting the intent of this thread which is focused on the Extreme and it's implementations, not digital theory.

This thread's intent was not and is not to discuss digital theory. It would be great if you started your own thread with your question(s). Then you can discuss it openly with those that are interested in it.

I think it would be very hard to discuss the state of the art in digital without touching on digital theory, given that digital theory must be the state of the art’s very foundation. Essentially what the Extreme has done is to create an environment for the digital stream that has very little impact on Its physical characteristics. In order to appreciate that one surely needs to understand the huge difference between a digital file and a digital stream

 

[Rhapsody]

I think it would be very hard to discuss the state of the art in digital without touching on digital theory, given that digital theory must be the state of the art’s very foundation.

That's great then why not start a thread for those that want to discuss digital theory? This thread has been about a specific product, the Extreme, and how it works in different systems. How it interfaces to modems via FO. How it connects to DACs via usb or is AES/EBU a better connection in some systems. Even how it compares to other servers.

These points are about real products that exist right now that can work with the Extreme and help either Extreme users or those interested in the Extreme.

Sorry, but it seems like every time a thread is moving along with great information about what the thread's original intent was, it goes off track and then the thread just dies. It's too bad in my estimation. YMMV.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Microstrip, when I have some spare time I will dig up some research for you. It is interesting enough to devote a thread to.

Bits are indeed what they are, bits. However when bits are transferred they go accompanied by noise generated by a multitude of mechanisms. The interesting part of this is if these bits are stored in for example memory, or on disk, this noise is stored with them. When you read these bits back, this noise is read back along with them.

The research shows that these noise profiles are subsequently visible on a spectrum analysis of the output as high frequency noise. This will clearly have an effect.

We have identified and do address several mechanisms which generates this type of “bit noise”. But that “bit” I’m not sharing.

 

[Rhapsody]

I received the Plixir power supply a few days and connected it to the Intona usb 3.0 isolater. I didn't think I would be able to tell much of a difference. Wrong. It was a significant uptick in dynamics (macro and micro) and presence. Items way back in the soundstage had much more presense and each flute or small instrument were individually more full-bodied sounding.

I had been playing my preamp volume usually at 20, I moved it down to 18 with the Plixir connected.

Sort of strange that the Intona isolator is $400ish and the PS is $900ish, but in my set up I would consider the Plixir mandatory when using the Intona 3.0 usb isolator.

 

[Blackmorec]

That's great then why not start a thread for those that want to discuss digital theory? This thread has been about a specific product, the Extreme, and how it works in different systems. How it interfaces to modems via FO. How it connects to DACs via usb or is AES/EBU a better connection in some systems. Even how it compares to other servers.

These points are about real products that exist right now that can work with the Extreme and help either Extreme users or those interested in the Extreme.

Sorry, but it seems like every time a thread is moving along with great information about what the thread's original intent was, it goes off track and then the thread just dies. It's too bad in my estimation. YMMV.

Hi there, take a look at the very next post following yours. You mean to say that its contents aren’t interesting both in general terms and in the context of the Extreme. I look forward to reading more in this regard, in a new thread if that’s what’s necessary

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi there, take a look at the very next post following yours. You mean to say that its contents aren’t interesting both in general terms and in the context of the Extreme. I look forward to reading more in this regard, in a new thread if that’s what’s necessary

I agree and I am personally interested in the discussion as well......in another dedicated thread.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I agree and I am personally interested in the discussion as well......in another dedicated thread.

Yes please, I would appreciate that.

Noise generation I’m willing to partially engage in discussing. But bits are really just bits.

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi there, take a look at the very next post following yours. You mean to say that its contents aren’t interesting both in general terms and in the context of the Extreme. I look forward to reading more in this regard, in a new thread if that’s what’s necessary

Here is a good example of the same thing that happened in another thread. The thread was about Alsyvox speakers.

It got bogged down and the suggestion was made to start a new thread exploring the subject that was bogging down the Alsyvox thread. Ron, graciously started a new thread and now that thread is very interesting and is not infringing on the Alsyvox thread.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-sound-of-shimmer.28596/

In no way am I saying anything should not be discussed, just asking for it to be debated and discussed in an appropriate specific thread that addresses the specific topic. Nothing more than that.

 

[microstrip]

As has been already suggested, no one is saying that your questions are not relevant in general. Most of the people participating in this thread find that you are distracting the intent of this thread which is focused on the Extreme and it's implementations, not digital theory.

This thread's intent was not and is not to discuss digital theory. It would be great if you started your own thread with your question(s). Then you can discuss it openly with those that are interested in it.

The main question was triggered by a comment on the performance of the Extreme and the answer is needed to understand and discuss the comment, it is not just "digital theory". Such debates were cherished and encouraged in WBF in the past in many threads since its beggining, and side debates were current practice. This thread was created in the Our Favorite Technology & Audio Forums - Computer Based Music Server Forum, not in a particular manufacturer or dealer section, and has addressed many technological aspects, most also related to my question, along its 49 pages.

I will not insist, fortunately Emile has now answered partially to my question in a clear way and it is now more clear how it is related to the thread.

 

[Rhapsody]

The main question was triggered by a comment on the performance of the Extreme and the answer is needed to understand and discuss the comment, it is not just "digital theory". Such debates were cherished and encouraged in WBF in the past in many threads since its beggining, and side debates were current practice. This thread was created in the Our Favorite Technology & Audio Forums - Computer Based Music Server Forum, not in a particular manufacturer or dealer section, and has addressed many technological aspects, most also related to my question, along its 49 pages.

I will not insist, fortunately Emile has now answered partially to my question in a clear way and it is now more clear how it is related to the thread.

Really Brad, if you think it's appropriate to continue with it here have at it. Not a problem for me, who am I to suggest otherwise. I don't have to participate or interfere with the debate or discussion if it bothers me. I won't. Enjoy.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Microstrip, when I have some spare time I will dig up some research for you. It is interesting enough to devote a thread to.

Bits are indeed what they are, bits. However when bits are transferred they go accompanied by noise generated by a multitude of mechanisms. The interesting part of this is if these bits are stored in for example memory, or on disk, this noise is stored with them. When you read these bits back, this noise is read back along with them.

The research shows that these noise profiles are subsequently visible on a spectrum analysis of the output as high frequency noise. This will clearly have an effect.

We have identified and do address several mechanisms which generates this type of “bit noise”. But that “bit” I’m not sharing.

This is the fascinating bit for me... accidental pun aside... that in the end solving issues comes down ultimately to exhaustive trial and application rather than just pure theory. It’s really all about application. This is more about technology rather than just being science and I can only imagine how much trial it has taken to identify the bits of a server that generate that noise.

I expressed in a fairly inarticulate way earlier not so much about that bits are bits but rather more that it is noise is noise and having spent years trying to beat noise in digital application (in its many forms) all along the digital pathway this becomes clearer for me as well. The total across system implications of reducing that generated noise at every junction has really paid back and also paid forwards in the trickle down of reducing then the compounding amplification of each artifice.

Just that very first peak at all the care and attention to detail and extreme function creating lovely form inside of the Extreme shell and it just said volumes about how extreme experience at technology was at work here.

Certainly if I was playing at this exalted end of the hi end curve I’d likely go to the Extreme as well.