Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Christiaan Punter]

For those of you using XDMS, does a restart still improve sound quality after a while?

I personally see no strict need for restarting just for the restarting (although my server gets restarted often enough as a result of my professional occupation;-), but I can confirm that, after a restart, the server still needs a minute or 20, maybe 30, to sound as free-flowing and organic as it did prior to the restarting. That is if it was an immediate restart. If the server is allowed to cool down, then the recovery period is longer.

 

[oldmustang]

There is, however, a very strong business case to be made that most (if not all) future purchasers of the Extreme will be coming from predominantly Roon or competitive ecosystems. Ignoring those clients because you happen to be "sold" on this ["no need to compare"] is nearsighted at best (worse is actually easier to justify) and isn't wise business judgement. The competitive options are not standing still, either.

@wil Not picking on you...merely using your post as an example since it applies to many who are posting on sound quality differences....in Christiaan's case it is nearer in time, but still removed in time. [Note: I embrace that everyone is free to do as they wish and should do as they wish ....]

But here's the problem for me: for example, what conclusions can I draw from a comparison between TAS v. Roon if Roon has been fixed in time.

wil: "Maybe this is due to my steadfast refusal to update Roon for the last year or two."

Then there is the very sticky problem of bias once one has written off a competitive option and hammers in said bias by repeatedly bashing the competitive software.

I don't know about others, but I find it harder to accept results and feedback coming from those who aren't open minded nor are pushing against their own notions.

I'm with Cyrus on this. From what I've heard so far there is no doubt in my mind that SQ of XDMS is superior, significantly superior, to Roon and TAS. However, if you read back through the various posters comparing Roon to TAS there are some widely divergent opinions as to sonic character of both, as well as the relative superiority one to the other. My impression of Roon vs. TAS is in another camp I haven't seen yet -- Roon to me sounds flat, grey and emotionally uninvolving compared to TAS. Not, as some have posted, acceptable or a different sonic flavor -- to me it is unacceptably compromised and just not fun to listen with despite Roon's great UI.

So given these widely differing positions on Roon and TAS why would anyone expect, when XDMS has reached a wider population that opinions as to XDMS' sonic character as well as superiority (or not) over competing players will be equally varied? After all, everyone's systems, rooms and musical preferences are different.

Though others' experiences may be different than mine, I find reading about them valuable. While I expect that a consensus will emerge that XDMS is superior for Extreme users, it won't surprise me in the least if this isn't universal.

Besides, folks are going to compare anyway -- they'd be putting their faith in reading about something rather than hearing for themselves otherwise. Not that any audiophile would ever let lack of listening prevent them from voicing a strong opinion!

Just my 2 cents worth,

Steve Z

 

[Christiaan Punter]

I'm with Cyrus on this. From what I've heard so far there is no doubt in my mind that SQ of XDMS is superior, significantly superior, to Roon and TAS. However, if you read back through the various posters comparing Roon to TAS there are some widely divergent opinions as to sonic character of both, as well as the relative superiority one to the other. My impression of Roon vs. TAS is in another camp I haven't seen yet -- Roon to me sounds flat, grey and emotionally uninvolving compared to TAS. Not, as some have posted, acceptable or a different sonic flavor -- to me it is unacceptably compromised and just not fun to listen with despite Roon's great UI.

So given these widely differing positions on Roon and TAS why would anyone expect, when XDMS has reached a wider population that opinions as to XDMS' sonic character as well as superiority (or not) over competing players will be equally varied? After all, everyone's systems, rooms and musical preferences are different.

Though others' experiences may be different than mine, I find reading about them valuable. While I expect that a consensus will emerge that XDMS is superior for Extreme users, it won't surprise me in the least if this isn't universal.

Besides, folks are going to compare anyway -- they'd be putting their faith in reading about something rather than hearing for themselves otherwise. Not that any audiophile would ever let lack of listening prevent them from voicing a strong opinion!

Just my 2 cents worth,

Steve Z

I understand the reasoning here, it's a valid argument, and I am not opposed to further listening tests. But I personally do not see the need at this point for three reasons. One: I have been doing Roon versus XDMS comparisons on the Extreme for nearly half a year now and I have a strong handle on how they compare. Two: since I still listen to Roon very regularly using the Grimm MU1 and Antipodes K50, I am aware of how it evolves. So far, Roon has not changed so much to make me want to reassess. And three, most importantly, there is still a ton of work to be done on the development side of XDMS and I much rather focus on that. Meanwhile, I invite everyone to form their own impressions, and by all means, post about them on this forum.

 

[cat6man]

For a true single continuous file, the tracks could be ripped as such. Making separate tracks continuous after ripping is of course possible (as mentioned in this thread) but not really a viable option for most. But rest assured that we will address this once we reach calmer waters.

+1

Let's let these folks get at least to a beta. The alpha release was a fine goodwill gesture so we could hear the improved SQ. Let's be patient and pretend we're at the zoo.

Don't disturb the animals!
They need to stay focused.

Christiaan--you are, I believe, the firewall protecting Emile and Ed and team from too many distractions?

Ymmv

 

[Rhapsody]

I'm with Cyrus on this. From what I've heard so far there is no doubt in my mind that SQ of XDMS is superior, significantly superior, to Roon and TAS. However, if you read back through the various posters comparing Roon to TAS there are some widely divergent opinions as to sonic character of both, as well as the relative superiority one to the other. My impression of Roon vs. TAS is in another camp I haven't seen yet -- Roon to me sounds flat, grey and emotionally uninvolving compared to TAS. Not, as some have posted, acceptable or a different sonic flavor -- to me it is unacceptably compromised and just not fun to listen with despite Roon's great UI.

So given these widely differing positions on Roon and TAS why would anyone expect, when XDMS has reached a wider population that opinions as to XDMS' sonic character as well as superiority (or not) over competing players will be equally varied? After all, everyone's systems, rooms and musical preferences are different.

Though others' experiences may be different than mine, I find reading about them valuable. While I expect that a consensus will emerge that XDMS is superior for Extreme users, it won't surprise me in the least if this isn't universal.

Besides, folks are going to compare anyway -- they'd be putting their faith in reading about something rather than hearing for themselves otherwise. Not that any audiophile would ever let lack of listening prevent them from voicing a strong opinion!

Just my 2 cents worth,

Steve Z

I think Roon and TAS were comparable. I do not think Roon and XDMS, regarding sonics, are comparable at all and that is the way XDMS sounds like today, not with what's coming down the road. Not with what Roon sounds like today or probably will ever sound like. For me, Roon or even TAS are like different models of cars and XDMS is like getting a helicopter.

We all have different opinions, no big deal.

 

[steve williams]

Who cares about TAS and Roon now That XDMS is here? Have you heard XDMS yet? If not, then I understand your questioning, if you have then I definitely do not understand you’re questioning.

XDMS is an inflection point in digital reproduction.

Of course, if one only cares about the user interface, and is not interested in a paradigm shift in sonics, then great, they can use Roon.

Precisely my point. Cyrus XDMS is the “ goods” sonically. My digital has never sounded so good

further you make a point about Roon not being static and what if it were. Well it ain’t

I have used TAS since the first alpha version and over the past 2 years have gone back to Roon perhaps 4-5 times. Each time Roon sounds very good but never as good as TAS. I confirmed that again last week just before I had XDMS installed and as Bob says “ who cares”. I’d be surprised if you didn’t come to the same conclusion. Right now Roon on Extreme has now become a thing of the past. I don’t even see the need to add TAS to the XDMS app.

 

[Rhapsody]

Precisely my point. Cyrus XDMS is the “ goods” sonically. My digital has never sounded so good

further you make a point about Roon not being static and what if it were. Well it ain’t

I have used TAS since the first alpha version and over the past 2 years have gone back to Room perhaps 4-5 times. Each time Roon sounds very good but never as good as TAS. I confirmed that again last week just before I had XDNS installed and as Bob says “ who cares”. I’d be surprised if you didn’t come to the same conclusion. Right now Roon on Extreme has now become a think of the past. I don’t even see the need to add TAS to the XDMS app.

I see zero purpose in having TAS in the XDMS app. I will NEVER open it again and the same for Roon. I don't care how elegant Roon is regarding the user interface. But that's me, others may not care about sonics and want the Roon interface. To each his own.

 

[dminches]

I see zero purpose in having TAS in the XDMS app. I will NEVER open it again and the same for Roon. I don't care how elegant Roon is regarding the user interface. But that's me, others may not care about sonics and want the Roon interface. To each his own.

This may not apply to you but some of us listen to music that significantly benefits from gapless playback which is currently not an option in either TAS or XDMS.

 

[Rhapsody]

This may not apply to you but some of us listen to music that significantly benefits from gapless playback which is currently not an option in either TAS or XDMS.

Then use Roon. As I said everyone is different. I only have probably 10 albums that gapless would make a difference vs a few thousand that it doesn't matter. But again, that's just me. I understand everyone has different needs.

If you are going to process the incoming signal and make TAS and XDMS sound like they do because of the processing of the signal gapless is a real challenge. I prefer the ultimate sonics, but again, that's me. And sure it would be great to have gapless and everything else that Roon has, but there are trade-offs for ultimate sonics. imho only.

 

[steve williams]

I agree Bob

one of my professors would always say “ pick your poison”

 

[Taiko Audio]

The gapless discussion is a bit pointless, this is an alpha release, there are 2 playback modes for comparative reasons, one will end up being gapless. Ideally we will even end up with just one (gapless) playback mode. These playback modes are different, the question is can you actually hear a difference between the two? This difference was pretty large a few months ago..

 

[microstrip]

(...) Ideally we will even end up with just one (gapless) playback mode. These playback modes are different, the question is can you actually hear a difference between the two? This difference was pretty large a few months ago..

I hope it is not ideally, but in reality. For many classic music recordings gapless playback is mandatory.

 

[ctydwn]

I actually feel like XDMS is like going from listening to MP3s on a system to a 44.1 CD file. It is that vibrant.

A nice benefit I can listen at a much lower volume. I used to turn up the volume to get small details to become more present. Now even at lower volumes the tiniest details are VERY PRESENT.

Agree. And, as I mentioned in my prior post, this is BEFORE the ability to stream hi-res files on XDMS. Taiko has confirmed that is currently not possible on XDMS but should be very soon. It will only keep getting better from here. I am strapped in.

 

[Rhapsody]

I hope it is not ideally, but in reality. For many classic music recordings gapless playback is mandatory.

Micro, I’m trying to understand. When I listen to classical music with vinyl in between the compositions or tracks, whatever you wanna call them, there is a slight pause. Unless the movement takes up the whole side of the record.

So why would there be an issue changing from one track or movement to the next, if there is a slight pause?

I might be missing something, but I do listen to classical on a daily basis, and on most classical streaming or vinyl, I hear, pauses in between a certain tracks.

 

[microstrip]

Micro, I’m trying to understand. When I listen to classical music with vinyl in between the compositions or tracks, whatever you wanna call them, there is a slight pause. Unless the movement takes up the whole side of the record.

So why would there be an issue changing from one track or movement to the next, if there is a slight pause?

I might be missing something, but I do listen to classical on a daily basis, and on most classical streaming or vinyl, I hear, pauses in between a certain tracks.

Sometimes recordings have track numbers inside movements - and many others have almost instantaneous transition, digital is not like vinyl. Gaps would completely keep the sense of surprise in many recordings, my favorite Salall's being one them. I once had my player inserting gaps and it was nightmare - also because I have got used to the natural timing of gaps!

What is the current pause time of the gaps in XDMS?

 

[cat6man]

Sometimes recordings have track numbers inside movements - and many others have almost instantaneous transition, digital is not like vinyl. Gaps would completely keep the sense of surprise in many recordings, my favorite Salall's being one them. I once had my player inserting gaps and it was nightmare - also because I have got used to the natural timing of gaps!

What is the current pause time of the gaps in XDMS?

It's alpha, not even beta, guys.
In my opinion, gapless is SQ and SQ implies gapless. Ymmv.

I'm perfectly happy with alpha gaps and trust the taiko brain trust to fix it before release.

 

[cat6man]

Micro, I’m trying to understand. When I listen to classical music with vinyl in between the compositions or tracks, whatever you wanna call them, there is a slight pause. Unless the movement takes up the whole side of the record.

So why would there be an issue changing from one track or movement to the next, if there is a slight pause?

I might be missing something, but I do listen to classical on a daily basis, and on most classical streaming or vinyl, I hear, pauses in between a certain tracks.

As an example, get out your vinyl and listen to side 2 of Abbey Road.
Then stream it with gaps.
That's what is bothering those of us who are unhappy with gaps.

I have no problem at all with an alpha release having issues. Most companies would never even consider sharing an alpha release, or even a beta. I consider us lucky to be offered a look at an alpha release.

 

[Pallen]

Symposium racks will be able to hold your new Extreme https://www.symposiumusa.com/Racks3.html I have the Ultra Foundation rack and it works & sounds great. Peter Bizlewicz is the owner and he can design what you need - you can contact him here symposium@optonline.net

I've seen a number of comments on this forum giving high praise to Symposium racks. I briefly owned a Symposium Ultra Rack and I did not like it much. I found it tipped the sound up, making it fatiguing and unnatural to my ears. Besides that, I was surprised how much the sound could change for the worse if the company's reinforcing bars were used or if the leg sections were tightened too much.

 

[Rhapsody]

As an example, get out your vinyl and listen to side 2 of Abbey Road.
Then stream it with gaps.
That's what is bothering those of us who are unhappy with gaps.

I have no problem at all with an alpha release having issues. Most companies would never even consider sharing an alpha release, or even a beta. I consider us lucky to be offered a look at an alpha release.

I've listened to Abbey Road since the day it was released as many on this forum have. I think I have 10 copies of AR on vinyl. If I would want to listen to AR I would just listen to it on vinyl. Although I have not listened to AR for I think maybe 10 years now. My musical tastes have changed. I have visitors from around the world on a weekly basis. I have been turned on to so much music, not necessarily new, that I never knew that existed from Classical, Jazz (early and late), South American, alternative rock etc,. I am overwhelmed with so much music now with streaming and if there are a few albums that require gapless, ie, Pink Floyd, Abbey Road and a few others, then I would listen to them on vinyl, which I have four TT's on which to do so. But like I said I just don't happen to listen to those albums even on vinyl. SO, for me it's not an issue.

BUT I understand for others it is. I also understand if you only listen to classical it is a real issue.

As Emile said gapless is coming. I am totally content now with XDMS in it's present state. Why not enjoy the 50+M tracks that are available now and save the X number of albums that require gapless to listen to in a few months from now?

 

[Sablon Audio]

Free to good home, though it would be nice if you were to make a charitable donation….I bought these Startech fibre modules ages ago based on what was considered the ’hot set up’ at the time on this thread. Never used them and don’t have any plans to do so; perhaps someone else wants them? Ww courier shipping will be approx £40