Hi Paul,
Thanks you for reporting. It would be valuable considering the topic of this thread to add if you are an Extreme owner as to not to "muddy the waters".
Thanks.
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
Hi Paul,
Thanks you for reporting. It would be valuable considering the topic of this thread to add if you are an Extreme owner as to not to "muddy the waters".
Thanks.
No I am not an Extreme owner. I apologize as I should have been more specific. I use the Totaldac Twelve MK2 with the D1 Streamer and fanless NAS. I am interested in knowing if Extreme owners are noting anything similar.
Not me, I feel that 1.7 has provided a noticeable uptick in SQ, although I am using an Extreme/AFxHD set up, different room, different everything so who knows?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
you make bold comments without hearing my system.Or not
I am speaking about my system and how I have it implemented...not yours but mine
To say something is a no brainer tells me that maybe just maybe the comment is far too general . My system is built entirely around noise reduction
I'm getting the same skipping to the next track as well on some tracks. Figured they would put a fix for it soon. I love how fast 1.7 is in my system. I would say it is 3X or 4X faster on searches and just in general use as it was prior to 1.7.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
So here is my question to Emile..........I must first clarify that I believe the Extreme is the next best thing since sliced bread
Having said that are you suggesting to all Extreme users that their sound WILL BE BETTERED with the use of switches and a clock or better yet, with 2 clocks and that it is a no brainer as some have claimed here
Having said that are you suggesting to all Extreme users that their sound WILL BE BETTERED with the use of switches and a clock or better yet, with 2 clocks and that it is a no brainer as some have claimed here
Steve I think he ran too much. I did not respond to you, but to IanG-UK.
He said his decision was "common sense", I didn't even say it wasn't, I just said maybe yes maybe not.
Therefore his statement that I comment without listening to your system is incorrect. I do not comment.
Best
Thank you for the compliment Steve!
It is a difficult question to answer as results have been highly variable across the board. We have Extreme owners reporting considerable gains, minimal gains and negative gains.
We have consistent feedback from this:
1) Everybody is satisfied using the regular copper network port with the widest ranges of network setups.
2) Everybody who tried has also reported overall positive gains from using the recommended simple fiber network setup, it is generally regarded as a "good return of investment" for the USD 350 to Euro 450 (it is more expensive in Europe) spend.
3) The SOTM switches, whether stacked and or externally clocked has variable feedback, from minor to a good improvement. It does seem beneficial, the value for money equation is questionable as a stack with an external clock is costly. This would really need to be compared to the Telegartner Gold switch JCAT sells at around 5000.
4) On the new Uptone Ether Regen I have only received feedback from 1 user who is satisfied with it, 2 more are evaluating, a lot more have ordered it (including me) but are still waiting on it to arrive. Its USD 640 retail does not seem excessive to me and it may be a good value for money investment, but right now the jury is out on that.
5) There are a lot of manufacturers working on improved networking technologies, including ourselves. I am therefor wary of recommending network tweaks with significant price tags.
I do consider all options as "tweaks". I have not heard any networking setup make a bigger difference then a high quality USB cable, nor good anti vibration measures, when applied to the Extreme. This does not imply USB cables or anti vibration measures render networking tweaks invalid. I am only mentioning this to put some perspective to this, and I do take pride in the fact that we have managed to reduce networking influence on performance.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
My feelings exactly Emile
I am using a very expensive MasterBuilt Ultra cable as well as anti vibration measures throughout my entire system. My sound leaves nothing to the imagination.
Perhaps a switch in some systems will in fact provide benefit but to make a blanket, sweeping statement that it is a no brainer doesn't sit right with me. Perhaps, for some or even many but to say that it is necessary for every user as it is a no brainer for improving sound quality bothers me
The Extreme never ceases to amaze me. It is bullet proof, made like a huge tank and the sound quality using copper as I do is simply mesmerizing
As I stated before I am an advocate of the KISS technique...keep it simple, stupid. To me these tweaks add additional layers to what I consider an already magnificent circuit
So in summary I am interested in learning but right now for my system and my ears I have become an admirer of the Extreme, so much so that it is occupying almost my entire listening time. Is it possible to make the Extreme better with all of these tweaks. I would say, in some systems yes but in all systems, I still have my reservations
SoTM and dual clocks run the price another $5K
Steve,
I honestly don't know why it bothers you. My comment was only made because I know which DAC you're getting, and I know it DOES benefit from the SoTM and its clock option, which, BTW, it nowhere near $5k. More like half that. Add two good network cables and you're still below the $5k. So, in a way, it was NOT a blanket statement, as it comes from having HEARD IT MYSELF, not random internet reports, multiple times even.
And while I did not try it with the SGM, I've tried with Innuos and a host of other high-end servers, always on MSB DACs. Every single time the SoTM + clock lifted the performance of the MSB DACs in question in a meaningful way. BUT this setup will NOT include your very expensive MasterBuilt USB cable, as the switch + clock will only show its major benefit when used through the MSB Renderer.
To me, USB is anything but KISS, and a "very expensive USB cable" is as much a tweak as the SoTM switch, which is standard network fare.
Sorry for trying to help and report my findings, but I'll stay out of this conversation from now.
I honestly don't know why it bothers you. My comment was only made because I know which DAC you're getting, and I know it DOES benefit from the SoTM and its clock option, which, BTW, it nowhere near $5k. More like half that. Add two good network cables and you're still below the $5k. So, in a way, it was NOT a blanket statement, as it comes from having HEARD IT MYSELF, not random internet reports, multiple times even.
And while I did not try it with the SGM, I've tried with Innuos and a host of other high-end servers, always on MSB DACs. Every single time the SoTM + clock lifted the performance of the MSB DACs in question in a meaningful way. BUT this setup will NOT include your very expensive MasterBuilt USB cable, as the switch + clock will only show its major benefit when used through the MSB Renderer.
To me, USB is anything but KISS, and a "very expensive USB cable" is as much a tweak as the SoTM switch, which is standard network fare.
Sorry for trying to help and report my findings, but I'll stay out of this conversation from now.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Nothing personal Alex
i know your preference is the Ethernet route and not copper. Ethernet is not my preference. Under your circumstances I absolutely agree with you WRT a switch.
you weren’t reading when I said “in my system” and my system is via USB. I don’t dispute your findings re ethernet but then again I’m not so certain you have heard it with a top shelf USB cable.
no need to stay out of the discussion Alex. We are good friends. My point was very clear. I am referring to my system. As for KISS I believe the MasterBuilt Ultra cable brought my digital sound to a whole new level. If I’m not mistaken Mike Lavigne found the very same using a very high level G?bel USB cable There is no harm in having different opinions Alex. Now that you have qualified your argument by stipulating it is Ethernet using the MSB renderer plus a switch. I would suggest that your method is anything but simple. Mine is using a top of the line USB cable and good footers under the Extreme.
All roads lead to Rome Alex
i always value your opinions and have made that known here and elsewhere.
i know your preference is the Ethernet route and not copper. Ethernet is not my preference. Under your circumstances I absolutely agree with you WRT a switch.
you weren’t reading when I said “in my system” and my system is via USB. I don’t dispute your findings re ethernet but then again I’m not so certain you have heard it with a top shelf USB cable.
no need to stay out of the discussion Alex. We are good friends. My point was very clear. I am referring to my system. As for KISS I believe the MasterBuilt Ultra cable brought my digital sound to a whole new level. If I’m not mistaken Mike Lavigne found the very same using a very high level G?bel USB cable There is no harm in having different opinions Alex. Now that you have qualified your argument by stipulating it is Ethernet using the MSB renderer plus a switch. I would suggest that your method is anything but simple. Mine is using a top of the line USB cable and good footers under the Extreme.
All roads lead to Rome Alex
i always value your opinions and have made that known here and elsewhere.
I haven't heard your USB nor the Göbel, but I've heard plenty of expensive and uber expensive USB cables, in my system and client's. And yet, not one of my clients preferred USB over a properly setup network.
AFAIK Mike L. did not hear the SoTM + clock option which I'm partial to. It costs a fraction of what the USB cables we're discussing here cost, and, *to my ears*, sound great and presented a remarkable improvement.
I'd say my method is simpler simply because it doesn't involve $20k+ USB cables
Anyway, the fact that USB cables matter that much is, to me, a bummer.
AFAIK Mike L. did not hear the SoTM + clock option which I'm partial to. It costs a fraction of what the USB cables we're discussing here cost, and, *to my ears*, sound great and presented a remarkable improvement.
I'd say my method is simpler simply because it doesn't involve $20k+ USB cables
Anyway, the fact that USB cables matter that much is, to me, a bummer.
For clarity, the sotm stack referred to is made up out of the sotm sclk-ocx10, USD 3500 + the snh-10g with masterclock input, USD 1700, so USD 5200. And these are being stacked and used with even better clocks. I have zero issues with people buying this. I’m just not going to personally recommend this for the reasons outlined earlier.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I haven't heard your USB nor the Göbel, but I've heard plenty of expensive and uber expensive USB cables, in my system and client's. And yet, not one of my clients preferred USB over a properly setup network.
AFAIK Mike L. did not hear the SoTM + clock option which I'm partial to. It costs a fraction of what the USB cables we're discussing here cost, and, *to my ears*, sound great and presented a remarkable improvement.
I'd say my method is simpler simply because it doesn't involve $20k+ USB cables
Anyway, the fact that USB cables matter that much is, to me, a bummer.
it’s obvious you’re partial to your method I’m good with that
FWIW if you look at the poll at the top of the thread 80% of Extreme users are using copper whereas 12% are using Ethernet and one person or 4% is using both. I think that says something however it might be worth amending the poll to finding out how many are using switches. I have a lot of ultra high end audiophile buddies and I can tell you they too are using USB and none with a switch. To me the switch is necessary because Ethernet is noisy.
Steve, when you say “copper” are you referring to USB? I am trying to understand your terminology.
Normally I hear people refer to Ethernet as either copper or fiber but I don’t think you are referring to Ethernet when you say copper.
Yes, Steve's terminology is off. Ethernet can be done over copper or fiber. And funnily enough, with MSB DACs, you can do USB via fiber as well
Emile, I'm not recommend "stacking" either.
The poll is just that, a poll. How many of those have MSB DACs and have tried the Renderer w/ SoTM (or other switches)?
USB is by far the most prevalent connection method, and I know that. That doesn't make it automatically the best.
Emile, I'm not recommend "stacking" either.
The poll is just that, a poll. How many of those have MSB DACs and have tried the Renderer w/ SoTM (or other switches)?
USB is by far the most prevalent connection method, and I know that. That doesn't make it automatically the best.
The whole subject of tweaks is complicated because there are SO many different configurations.
For example, if you have all your music on the internal Extreme drives and use USB I don’t see how a switch would make a difference. It would only affect music streamed from Tidal/Qobuz. But if the music was external then it could make a difference.
For example, if you have all your music on the internal Extreme drives and use USB I don’t see how a switch would make a difference. It would only affect music streamed from Tidal/Qobuz. But if the music was external then it could make a difference.
Communication between Switch and server is constant, although you can play files that are on the server directly from the server to the DAC via USB. As I do not have Extreme I will not say that Extreme is not immune to the noise of the switch (although I would be surprised) but in my Melco it is very clear. Change the quality of the switch's power supply or change a commercial switch to a modified one or "Audiophile Switch” and you will immediately notice the change in SQ, even if it transmits local files.
