In my system, it sounded good with the switches inserted and good without the switches inserted while using TAS/usb driver. I figured why have them in there? I put them in another system that the added benefit was very noticeable.
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
...do you mean Buffalo switch with PF upgrade? I have been using one @nenon fab-ed to very good end for a while now, before the Extreme...and with it for a couple of weeks.
That said, troubleshooting a connectivity issue with Ed a couple of days ago, he suggested removing PFBuff and eRG to test.
So far, not conclusive. FYI: I am using Sonore OM and SM fiber (35') direct to Extreme, on Planet SFPs. The thought of no PFBuff is painful to even consider...
TAS help? My screen somehow switched from my normal interface -- full album picture with play controls below and "browse" at bottom left -- to a different half screen interface as shown in pics below. Tried everything I can think of to get it back. Ideas? Thanks
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Wil, I have that happen on occasion also. Only thing I've been able to surmise is that I think it's caused by some Search criteria that's hanging out there. So I go back to my most recent Search screens and find one that allows me to Cancel (even though there's nothing showing in the Search field. That seems to solve the problem for me.
Maybe someone has a better explanation/solution?!
As Ed says, or you can also try tapping the little open square at the top left.
Steve Z
The curled arrow in combination with toggling the top right open square is perfect. Better than the former "Browse" tap. Thanks all!
I would call this a paradigm shift. I am curious about the changes coming with de-tweaking when the complete Taiko environment is fully established.
Matt
I have no way of knowing, of course, but the phenomenon of previously effective network tweaks or upgrades in the form of premium switches, clocking, de-crapifiers etc becoming disimprovers of sound quality when initially they were heard as positives is something I experienced four or five years ago when the first couple waves of in-line noise filters, hubs and outright black boxes first hit the computer-served audio marketplace.
While I first thought that some of these devices were having a beneficial effect, particularly with removing digital edge and noise, as my system improved I ended up removing them all since I found they were not removing edge but just masking it by softening the top end and robbing music of some of its expansiveness and dynamics.
Not saying this is what is happening here -- though it seems similar from Emile's description -- but it does seem to be consistent with my earlier experience with at least a sub-category of network tweaks.
Steve Z
FYI - there's another (former?) owner of Telegärtner M12 Switch Gold who actually went for NO switches whatsoever
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...-server/page/78/?tab=comments#comment-1116366
And then there's also this particular data point
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-206#post-655430
Of course we're still talking about the plain vanilla TCP/IP stack (i.e. relatively high latency + high CPU overhead) with "regular" NICs to begin with, some Windows users seemed to have much better luck with stuff like Solarflare SFN8522 etc. despite the absence of Onload software.
It could very well be a different story if TAS and XD were able to bypass the kernel altogether with something similar to Audio over Ether (netmap-based) etc.
https://github.com/luigirizzo/netmap/blob/master/WINDOWS/README.txt
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...-server/page/55/?tab=comments#comment-1100135
Revisiting Network I/O APIs: The netmap Framework
https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2103536
@seeteeyou
Thanks for the links
IIUC, the first links are referring to a member who plays local stored files only, so at least for me it is more interesting what de-tweaking is bringing with respect to WiFi and streaming from Qobuz.
Matt
Thanks for the links
IIUC, the first links are referring to a member who plays local stored files only, so at least for me it is more interesting what de-tweaking is bringing with respect to WiFi and streaming from Qobuz.
Matt
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I am of the same ilk as my good friend ddk who always uses the KISS technique (keep it simple stupid). Perhaps I got lucky with my network and its setup as I have never had the desire or felt even a need to use a switch . We all have known that it is Emile's game plan to be able to control the signal from the time it enters the Extreme until it leaves the Extreme. Hence we have TAS and the TAS driver with a proprietary USB board for the Extreme to be released in the next few weeks, as well as perhaps his own switch which would obviate the need for any other switch.
When I got started about 18 months ago Emile said that the prerequisites for good sound in his opinion were
1. A good power cord
2. An excellent USB cable
3. A very good ethernet cable
4. Excellent means for isolation and noise reduction
This is what I followed and I have never looked back
For my ears what really was a profound improvement was the use of the TAS driver which has resulted in a huge uptick in SQ. All users should hopefully have TAS driver version 5.0 which for me seems to be the secret sauce that brings everything together
For Emile it is all about providing the best SQ so in the past few weeks as more beta users come on board and offer feedback it seems from what Emile has been saying now is that he is not certain whether there will be any further benefits from the addition of a generic switch
I have bought into Emile's game plan and now, with the TAS driver my sound has never been better for digital. For me my interest is spurred on by the ever improving TAS SQ such that I have been following with great interest whether we Extreme users will see a proprietary Taiko switch. So for me and my system, I have never used or even had any desire to use a switch or switches in my system as I believe they can all change the SQ and I have no desire to go down that rabbit hole.I find it interesting that people are now abandoning their switches as the sound is simply better without their use according to their findings. So with all of this in ind, the "only" way that I will ever use a switch would be if Emile in his research finds that his proposed Taiko switch would impart even further improvement in SQ .......but lately we are reading in this thread that Emile is now not certain that there would be any further gain in SQ with the use of his switch. I guess we are finding that "less is indeed more" when it comes to TAS
Finally to all Extreme users who use a Lampizator as their DAC and find that their USB board is based on Amanero and not the current XMOS based USB Board based on JL Sounds, you MUST find a way to replace your amanero board. The TAS driver functions only for an XMOS based USB board and I am proof to tell you that that simple change created such a profound improvement in my sound that IMO this is mandatory if you want the best SQ that TAS can offer. For me, the pending Taiko USB board is next on my list. Only if Emile says his switch is mandatory for improved SQ in TAS will be my incentive to ever use a switch in my system.
The key for me ihas been the TAS driver v 5.0 but I must admit that I a looking forward to the upcoming USB board for the Extreme
When I got started about 18 months ago Emile said that the prerequisites for good sound in his opinion were
1. A good power cord
2. An excellent USB cable
3. A very good ethernet cable
4. Excellent means for isolation and noise reduction
This is what I followed and I have never looked back
For my ears what really was a profound improvement was the use of the TAS driver which has resulted in a huge uptick in SQ. All users should hopefully have TAS driver version 5.0 which for me seems to be the secret sauce that brings everything together
For Emile it is all about providing the best SQ so in the past few weeks as more beta users come on board and offer feedback it seems from what Emile has been saying now is that he is not certain whether there will be any further benefits from the addition of a generic switch
I have bought into Emile's game plan and now, with the TAS driver my sound has never been better for digital. For me my interest is spurred on by the ever improving TAS SQ such that I have been following with great interest whether we Extreme users will see a proprietary Taiko switch. So for me and my system, I have never used or even had any desire to use a switch or switches in my system as I believe they can all change the SQ and I have no desire to go down that rabbit hole.I find it interesting that people are now abandoning their switches as the sound is simply better without their use according to their findings. So with all of this in ind, the "only" way that I will ever use a switch would be if Emile in his research finds that his proposed Taiko switch would impart even further improvement in SQ .......but lately we are reading in this thread that Emile is now not certain that there would be any further gain in SQ with the use of his switch. I guess we are finding that "less is indeed more" when it comes to TAS
Finally to all Extreme users who use a Lampizator as their DAC and find that their USB board is based on Amanero and not the current XMOS based USB Board based on JL Sounds, you MUST find a way to replace your amanero board. The TAS driver functions only for an XMOS based USB board and I am proof to tell you that that simple change created such a profound improvement in my sound that IMO this is mandatory if you want the best SQ that TAS can offer. For me, the pending Taiko USB board is next on my list. Only if Emile says his switch is mandatory for improved SQ in TAS will be my incentive to ever use a switch in my system.
The key for me ihas been the TAS driver v 5.0 but I must admit that I a looking forward to the upcoming USB board for the Extreme
+1. Totally agree. And the thing is- it's not an expensive upgrade- a few hundred bucks. One of the best improvements per dollar you can make on any Lampi DAC (at least the Pacific and Golden Gate 2- not sure about the others)
I'm a firm subscriber to the KISS principle but unfortunately our network requirements necessitate two switches. Our LAN has to run two offices each with a desktop and printer, a Roku and a Blue Sound for Roon in a second area and wifi throughout the house. I'm really interested to see Emile's final network recommendations but I'm afraid I'm stuck with my present configuration unless he does produce a switch which will improve on my two ER switches. In the meantime I can add my total agreement to Steve's description of the TAS system and 5.0 driver--it's terrific.
Taiko has set up an email box with the address support@taikoaudio.com
This email box will be monitored by the Taiko team
Thanks Ed. Wout reached out to me after seeing my question and quickly resolved my issue.
since i removed much of my spaghetti networking, i've found a great use for my old switch (etherRegen).
it now will go into my video streaming system, since the buffering in my Nvideo Shield Pro runs a few light years behind the Extreme.
home router (ubiquiti 6P, replaced weakly designed fios quantum router) feeds
1. cat6 to edgerouterX with optical out to extreme
2. cat 6 to 24 port netgear 1G switch, 4 port 10G switch and wifi access points (for home networking)
3. [in progress] optical out to etherRegen, cat6 out to Nvidia shield pro in home theater (running hdhomerun TV tuners, sageTV/Kodi, netflix, etc)...........it will be interesting to see if there is a noticeable benefit on the video streaming
For those who have never tried to improve their network, I can't help but quote Emile:
I've heard so many times people saying that their system sounds so good, and there is absolutely no noise or distortion, hence they don't need to make any changes. That's great. Just enjoy your system and don't think about any upgrades.
However, this is noise that you CANNOT "hear". You don't know it is there until it's gone. You have absolutely no idea. I've been there so many times! The people saying that there is no noise or distortion in their audio system are simply wrong. Such system does not exist.
There is always a layer of noise or distortion that can be removed in any system. And you don't know it's there until you hear how the system sounds without that.
Let's look at a typical household Internet environment.
The all-in-one cable modems (routers/WiFi/VoIP/etc.) provided by our ISPs are cheap and noisy consumer devices. Connect your server to one of these, and a lot of that noise goes from the noisy device to your server. Now the server has to work much harder to clean up this noise. Imagine this - I live in the heart of Chicago and I have a coax cable coming to my house - this coax cable is connected to infrastructure that runs many miles and connects a big percentage of the homes in Chicago. Imagine how much noise is picked up by these coax cables running all over the city. Yes, they are well shielded, and yes, there is an isolation device in my house (installed by Xfinity) that removes some of that noise when the cable enters inside. But it cannot remove all the noise. And this is all before the cable is plugged into my cable modem. Then the cable modem is another noise generating device on its own. And it's powered by an awful switching mode power supply that by itself generates a lot of noise too. Not only the switching mode wall wart generates noise, but it also contaminates my electrical line. Before I started using linear power supplies, I used to connect those network devices on a different power phase than my audio equipment.
Some people are lucky enough to have fiber Internet delivered into their house. I believe Taiko's facility is lucky in that regard. That might be one of the reasons some of us give more attention to the network than Taiko. Fiber optic Internet is much better, because the fiber cable entering your house is not a big antenna wiring miles and miles of households. But that fiber cable still connects to a cheap consumer device powered by a noisy switching mode power supply. You are in a much better position but still nod ideal.
Then you have a WiFi in your house that also impacts your system in multiple different ways. On one side the WiFi signal in close proximity to your system has negative effects. This is actually what triggered this post. I woke up this morning and my system did not sound as good as it usually does. Apparently while cleaning my house someone has moved one of my WiFi access point very close to my system. I moved it further away and everything came back to normal. This was a real eye opener.
Back to the Wifi... on the other end, you have a copper cable that connects back to my network that also contaminates the network with noise generated by the WiFi device. And also you have another wall wart switching mode power supply that is potentially contaminating the power grid.
What do we do to make the situation better? In case of a cable Internet, I do the following:
1. Get rid of the crappy all-in-one devices sent by my ISP. You can think of this as replacing an A/V Receiver with separates - monoblocks, linestage, DAC, etc. The "separates" are:
- better quality dedicated cable modem - Arris SB8200 in my case.
- better quality dedicated router - Ubiquiti Edgerouter X SFP in my case.
- better quality WiFi access point - AmpliFi HD WiFi System by Ubiquiti in my case.
2. Get rid of the crappy wall wart switching mode power supplies and use better linear power supplies to power my equipment. That helps in two ways - less noise goes back to my power line and the device I am powering generates a little bit less noise. It also provides better regulated / cleaner power to the components inside the device I am powering which improves oscillators, reduces jitter, etc. but let's not go there.
3. Move the WiFi away from the audio system and isolate the WiFi access point from my router via a fiber optic cable. I wish I could illustrate that in a short video clip. The WiFi device is attacking your system in 3 different ways. It generates wireless signal that could be harmful when the device is close to your system. It generates noise that get send back via your copper CAT5/6/7/8 network cable. And it pollutes your power line with its crappy wall wart. By keeping it away from your system, isolating with a fiber optic cable and powering with a LPS you address all 3 issues to some extent.
4. Add a couple of switches with very clean power and better clocks. One is by my cable modem and router. The other one is by my audio system. They are connected with a fiber optic cable, which is yet another level of noise isolation between my main network equipment and my listening room.
All of these changes are additive. I've tried many times to bypass them by connecting my server directly to the router and the results have always been very disappointing to say the least. Hopefully TAS will change that!
I see #1, 2, 3 as a "general hygiene" and #4 as a "tweak".
Everyone with a serious system in my opinion should do #1, 2, 3. Those are not changes that may need "de-tweaking" in the future... simply because they are not "tweaks" but a general hygiene. #4 is a different story, and this is what Emile referred to in his post.
I have tried many of the audiophile switches - SOTM, etherREGEN, Buffalo, Melco, Telegartner M12 Gold, etc. Most of these I owned for a long period of time.
BTW, here is an interesting story about the etherREGEN. Many of us were waiting the release of the first batch. The launch was announced to be on October 8th, 2019 at 9am. I was so determined to order one, knowing that the first batch may sell out in a few minutes that I found a glitch in Uptone Audio's website and figured out a way to order one before 9 am. I had it in my cart on my laptop at 8:30 am ready to hit the "submit order" button. But I did not do that. I decided not to cheat and ordered the normal way at 9 am. Barely got into the first batch of 155 units. I then reported this to Alex at Uptone Audio...
Back to the switches I have tried.... I actually owned all of them except the Melco which I had on a loan and it turned out with a little DIY we can make the cheaper Buffalo switch sound better, so I did not feel like buying a Melco. They all have their own sound signature. These switches can be used like tone controls. Connect the M12 Gold switch for example and you can immediately hear its sound signature. Connect the Melco, and you can hear how the Melco changes the sound. Connect the Melco and M12 in series and you can hear both characters. While the Melco and the M12 Gold switch are connected in series, if you connect your server to the M12 Gold switch you can hear the M12 character more pronounced (while the Melco character is still there). You swap the order and connect your server to the Melco and you can hear the Melco character more pronounced (while the M12 Gold character is still there).
Let me get this out of the way. Even with all the crazy experiments I have done (at some point I had over 6 switches in series just to see what it sounds like), I prefer to listen with the network cable unplugged. It's the most transparent way to listen to music. Queue up all the tracks (from local storage), hit play, disconnect the network, and enjoy. This unfortunately does not work with Qobuz! It only works with local music.
The Telegartner M12 Gold switch is a very interesting switch. It definitely has its own character that I recognize very well. It adds some sweetness to the music. It's very addictive. It makes everything sound beautiful, even bad recordings. Every song sounds like a fairy tale with beautiful colors and nuances. That's why so many people like it.
As far as I can see it, Emile is going for transparency with the new USB card. I can totally see that by some of his design choices - custom clock with better specs than reference OCXO clocks, discrete linear regulators, etc. He mentioned LT3045 regulators - as good as these are on paper, they do have their own sound character that I don't particularly like, and they are certainly not the most transparent regulators out there. Glad to see they are not used in the critical sections of the Taiko USB card like everyone else does. Transparency is an important part of the Extreme's (quite successful) attempt for realistic live sound reproduction.
So, yes, i can certainly see how the M12 Gold switch could get on the way here. It's a really really good switch for noiser servers as it makes everything sound beautiful, removing a lot of digital harshness associated with digital sources. Perhaps the noisy but less pronounced character of the cheap Netgear GS108 switch with a standard CAT5/6 unshielded network cable is a better match here.
Too bad he could not try other switches, but I have no doubts he would try them over time. It's quite an interesting development.
And BTW, I am a huge fan of the KISS concept (even if my posts sometimes hint the opposite) as well as using a shortest possible path for audio. It would be a major breakthrough if we could just run a normal cable to our ISP provided all-in-one router and put our network behind! I really hope Taiko would make this possible for us!
I can't say it any better.
I've heard so many times people saying that their system sounds so good, and there is absolutely no noise or distortion, hence they don't need to make any changes. That's great. Just enjoy your system and don't think about any upgrades.
However, this is noise that you CANNOT "hear". You don't know it is there until it's gone. You have absolutely no idea. I've been there so many times! The people saying that there is no noise or distortion in their audio system are simply wrong. Such system does not exist.
There is always a layer of noise or distortion that can be removed in any system. And you don't know it's there until you hear how the system sounds without that.
Let's look at a typical household Internet environment.
The all-in-one cable modems (routers/WiFi/VoIP/etc.) provided by our ISPs are cheap and noisy consumer devices. Connect your server to one of these, and a lot of that noise goes from the noisy device to your server. Now the server has to work much harder to clean up this noise. Imagine this - I live in the heart of Chicago and I have a coax cable coming to my house - this coax cable is connected to infrastructure that runs many miles and connects a big percentage of the homes in Chicago. Imagine how much noise is picked up by these coax cables running all over the city. Yes, they are well shielded, and yes, there is an isolation device in my house (installed by Xfinity) that removes some of that noise when the cable enters inside. But it cannot remove all the noise. And this is all before the cable is plugged into my cable modem. Then the cable modem is another noise generating device on its own. And it's powered by an awful switching mode power supply that by itself generates a lot of noise too. Not only the switching mode wall wart generates noise, but it also contaminates my electrical line. Before I started using linear power supplies, I used to connect those network devices on a different power phase than my audio equipment.
Some people are lucky enough to have fiber Internet delivered into their house. I believe Taiko's facility is lucky in that regard. That might be one of the reasons some of us give more attention to the network than Taiko. Fiber optic Internet is much better, because the fiber cable entering your house is not a big antenna wiring miles and miles of households. But that fiber cable still connects to a cheap consumer device powered by a noisy switching mode power supply. You are in a much better position but still nod ideal.
Then you have a WiFi in your house that also impacts your system in multiple different ways. On one side the WiFi signal in close proximity to your system has negative effects. This is actually what triggered this post. I woke up this morning and my system did not sound as good as it usually does. Apparently while cleaning my house someone has moved one of my WiFi access point very close to my system. I moved it further away and everything came back to normal. This was a real eye opener.
Back to the Wifi... on the other end, you have a copper cable that connects back to my network that also contaminates the network with noise generated by the WiFi device. And also you have another wall wart switching mode power supply that is potentially contaminating the power grid.
What do we do to make the situation better? In case of a cable Internet, I do the following:
1. Get rid of the crappy all-in-one devices sent by my ISP. You can think of this as replacing an A/V Receiver with separates - monoblocks, linestage, DAC, etc. The "separates" are:
- better quality dedicated cable modem - Arris SB8200 in my case.
- better quality dedicated router - Ubiquiti Edgerouter X SFP in my case.
- better quality WiFi access point - AmpliFi HD WiFi System by Ubiquiti in my case.
2. Get rid of the crappy wall wart switching mode power supplies and use better linear power supplies to power my equipment. That helps in two ways - less noise goes back to my power line and the device I am powering generates a little bit less noise. It also provides better regulated / cleaner power to the components inside the device I am powering which improves oscillators, reduces jitter, etc. but let's not go there.
3. Move the WiFi away from the audio system and isolate the WiFi access point from my router via a fiber optic cable. I wish I could illustrate that in a short video clip. The WiFi device is attacking your system in 3 different ways. It generates wireless signal that could be harmful when the device is close to your system. It generates noise that get send back via your copper CAT5/6/7/8 network cable. And it pollutes your power line with its crappy wall wart. By keeping it away from your system, isolating with a fiber optic cable and powering with a LPS you address all 3 issues to some extent.
4. Add a couple of switches with very clean power and better clocks. One is by my cable modem and router. The other one is by my audio system. They are connected with a fiber optic cable, which is yet another level of noise isolation between my main network equipment and my listening room.
All of these changes are additive. I've tried many times to bypass them by connecting my server directly to the router and the results have always been very disappointing to say the least. Hopefully TAS will change that!
I see #1, 2, 3 as a "general hygiene" and #4 as a "tweak".
Everyone with a serious system in my opinion should do #1, 2, 3. Those are not changes that may need "de-tweaking" in the future... simply because they are not "tweaks" but a general hygiene. #4 is a different story, and this is what Emile referred to in his post.
I have tried many of the audiophile switches - SOTM, etherREGEN, Buffalo, Melco, Telegartner M12 Gold, etc. Most of these I owned for a long period of time.
BTW, here is an interesting story about the etherREGEN. Many of us were waiting the release of the first batch. The launch was announced to be on October 8th, 2019 at 9am. I was so determined to order one, knowing that the first batch may sell out in a few minutes that I found a glitch in Uptone Audio's website and figured out a way to order one before 9 am. I had it in my cart on my laptop at 8:30 am ready to hit the "submit order" button. But I did not do that. I decided not to cheat and ordered the normal way at 9 am. Barely got into the first batch of 155 units. I then reported this to Alex at Uptone Audio...
Back to the switches I have tried.... I actually owned all of them except the Melco which I had on a loan and it turned out with a little DIY we can make the cheaper Buffalo switch sound better, so I did not feel like buying a Melco. They all have their own sound signature. These switches can be used like tone controls. Connect the M12 Gold switch for example and you can immediately hear its sound signature. Connect the Melco, and you can hear how the Melco changes the sound. Connect the Melco and M12 in series and you can hear both characters. While the Melco and the M12 Gold switch are connected in series, if you connect your server to the M12 Gold switch you can hear the M12 character more pronounced (while the Melco character is still there). You swap the order and connect your server to the Melco and you can hear the Melco character more pronounced (while the M12 Gold character is still there).
Let me get this out of the way. Even with all the crazy experiments I have done (at some point I had over 6 switches in series just to see what it sounds like), I prefer to listen with the network cable unplugged. It's the most transparent way to listen to music. Queue up all the tracks (from local storage), hit play, disconnect the network, and enjoy. This unfortunately does not work with Qobuz! It only works with local music.
The Telegartner M12 Gold switch is a very interesting switch. It definitely has its own character that I recognize very well. It adds some sweetness to the music. It's very addictive. It makes everything sound beautiful, even bad recordings. Every song sounds like a fairy tale with beautiful colors and nuances. That's why so many people like it.
As far as I can see it, Emile is going for transparency with the new USB card. I can totally see that by some of his design choices - custom clock with better specs than reference OCXO clocks, discrete linear regulators, etc. He mentioned LT3045 regulators - as good as these are on paper, they do have their own sound character that I don't particularly like, and they are certainly not the most transparent regulators out there. Glad to see they are not used in the critical sections of the Taiko USB card like everyone else does. Transparency is an important part of the Extreme's (quite successful) attempt for realistic live sound reproduction.
So, yes, i can certainly see how the M12 Gold switch could get on the way here. It's a really really good switch for noiser servers as it makes everything sound beautiful, removing a lot of digital harshness associated with digital sources. Perhaps the noisy but less pronounced character of the cheap Netgear GS108 switch with a standard CAT5/6 unshielded network cable is a better match here.
Too bad he could not try other switches, but I have no doubts he would try them over time. It's quite an interesting development.
And BTW, I am a huge fan of the KISS concept (even if my posts sometimes hint the opposite) as well as using a shortest possible path for audio. It would be a major breakthrough if we could just run a normal cable to our ISP provided all-in-one router and put our network behind! I really hope Taiko would make this possible for us!
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