Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[joet]

Update on the Router:

The first presale batch of 100 routers is now sold out. They will be shipped with a redesigned PCB with integrated Wi-Fi. We do lose 1 of the 2 USB ports due to needing the PCIe data lines.

The next batch of routers will be available to ship from the 2nd of October. This seems like a long time but it’s quite a sophisticated design being a completely motherboard designed from scratch with CPU / memory / storage etc all not available immediately either.

This could actually serve as a complete server which would typically sell at much higher prices.

While on that topic. We have been receiving questions again on why we’re not offering a dual Extreme server setup like some others. To answer that question we have to zoom in on the 2 key benefits from a dual server setup being:

1) separating server core processing from endpoint processing
2) “shielding” the amount of network processing the endpoint has to perform as it can be on an “isolated” audio network

Now you can indeed accomplish this by purchasing 2 extreme servers but IMHO this is a suboptimal and unnecessarily expensive solution.

1) An extreme already has a, imho, “smarter” way to separate processing in a core - endpoint scenario employing 2 physical CPUs.

Which reduces the benefit to:

2) creating an audio exclusive network for the endpoint for which we have designed the Router as this does that for the entire setup, core and endpoint.

Further to this we have designed the switch to allow for a lower noise / higher efficiency interface over RJ45 to be used.

The total package price of Router / Switch / Extreme server might be steep, but it’s still cheaper then buying 2 Extreme servers, and, again IMHO a somewhat cleverer approach with merits beyond just stacking servers.

Do you still anticipate the first batch of routers to ship around the end of July?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Do you still anticipate the first batch of routers to ship around the end of July?

Yes.

 

[Skanda]

Adding the Switch + NIC Card to the mix will further up the ante in the bass, both in terms of unfolding more harmonic information in the bass instruments as well as in the transient definition. It really shone there and made me sit up and take notice!

very cool. its crazy how much information in the bass is lost and as we all know, once the bass is improved the staging naturally improves as well. this software update is up there with a component change (like a new dac or even a new amp)

 

[cat6man]

very cool. its crazy how much information in the bass is lost and as we all know, once the bass is improved the staging naturally improves as well. this software update is up there with a component change (like a new dac or even a new amp)

And the new NSN version of xdms is said to be the single biggest improvement.....good times!

 

[VPN]

Yes, but stay tuned for more creative solutions coming up…

Dear Emile, I personally would much rather have a one box solution, with a DIY BPS kit, even if I have to wait two or more months to receive by ship. Cheers.

 

[John T]

It really doesn't look like it would be that difficult to remove the current AC-to-DC power supply from an Extreme. Admittedly, those without any experience working with electrical and electronic equipment might want Taiko or an authorized Taiko rep to do the job, but from the times I've had the top cover off the Extreme for various card installations it doesn't appear that there are anything but industry-standard fasteners holding things in place.

I personally would be willing to remove the old power supply and install a new battery power supply in my own Extreme.

But of course, YMMV, as it indeed should.

Steve Z

@oldmustang : Steve you could be the traveling North American Taiko Repairman, obviously you would have to be handsomely compensated! I know I would have the utmost confidence in your ability. Not a bad gig. Wined and dined, free accommodations, transported to and from the airport. Listening to a host of systems. Pick your own hours, just a thought...Rockstar Status...

 

[cat6man]

It really doesn't look like it would be that difficult to remove the current AC-to-DC power supply from an Extreme. Admittedly, those without any experience working with electrical and electronic equipment might want Taiko or an authorized Taiko rep to do the job, but from the times I've had the top cover off the Extreme for various card installations it doesn't appear that there are anything but industry-standard fasteners holding things in place.

I personally would be willing to remove the old power supply and install a new battery power supply in my own Extreme.

But of course, YMMV, as it indeed should.

Steve Z

the most difficult part for me will be lifting it out of the rack

maybe the folks who can do it themselves can go to the front of the line? (just saying.......)

 

[oldmustang]

Well, first part of the project is done. Though the fancy metal connectors on my ethernet cable turned out to be Panduit rather than Metz (and didn't just snap apart and back together) I was able to slip a small, stiff piece of plastic under the strain-relief at the back of the shell between the bundle of shield and drain wire and the metal shell. Checked with an ohmmeter and no conductivity end to end now.

Too late tonight to mess around with listening trials but tomorrow I'll try some substitutions between my StarLink router and the Netgear GS108E switch feeding the ethernet cable running to the Taiko switch > Taiko NIC/Extreme.

I have a Sablon ethernet cable with what looks like the same or similar Panduit metal RJ-45 plugs but no conductivity between metal ends, the newly modified cable -- which is an Audioquest Carbon CAT 7 with no conductivity through the shield now -- and a good quality but nothing special CAT 6A UTP cable with molded boot plastic ends. Should be interesting.

Steve Z

The last couple of evenings I've been comparing several ethernet cables in my home LAN. The ethernet cable that directly connects to my Taiko switch is about 15 meters (or 50 feet) and I don't have any premium let alone audiophile samples of ethernet cable quite that long, so that run remains UTP CAT 6A. However, immediately upstream of that the link between my single-port StarLink router and a Netgear GS108E switch is amenable to short ethernet cable swaps. So the basic LAN set-up is:

Roof-mounted StarLink dish > 75' outdoor-rated ethernet > StarLink router > ethernet jumper under test > Netgear GS108E switch/Jameco regulated linear power supply > 50' UTP CAT 6A > Taiko switch/Uptone JS-2 LPS > DAC cable > new Taiko NIC/Extreme.

(not shown): 25' UTP CAT 6A from a second port on the same Netgear GS108E switch to a switch supplying the rest of my home LAN (computers, Apple TV box, DISH satellite TV, NAS (3), etc)

Tested: UTP CAT 6A, Sablon ethernet, Audioquest CAT 7 with shielding lifted at one end

I tested in two modes -- local (residing on Extreme) file playback, and streaming (from Qobuz) file playback.

First, the easy part -- local file playback. I didn't hear any appreciable differences between the three ethernet jumpers during local file playback, certainly nothing I'd be able to consistently identify.

Streaming file playback was interesting. I was able to come up with a clear preference, though why -- since playback doesn't start until the entire track is buffered in memory -- I have no informed explanation for.

In any event, the Sablon ethernet cable was the clear winner, followed very closely by the plain UTP CAT 6A, and then by some distance the Audioquest CAT 7. The Sablon and the UTP 6A jumper were the ones that made me want to listen to a track all the way to the end, whereas the AQ jumper didn't inspire that kind of emotional involvement , particularly after having listened to some of the test tracks multiple times. The Sablon and the UTP CAT 6A jumper present larger, punchier images, project more energy and life into my living room, and have much more saturated tonal density and texture, much more like the real thing.

And a recommendation, first posted here by Emile, for a very well-recorded album that really drew out the differences between cables:



And two more that were definitely not a chore to listen to:





Steve Z

 

[Di-fi]

Roof-mounted StarLink dish >
75' outdoor-rated ethernet >
StarLink router >
ethernet jumper under test >
Netgear GS108E switch/Jameco regulated linear power supply >
50' UTP CAT 6A >
Taiko switch/Uptone JS-2 LPS >
DAC cable >
new Taiko NIC/Extreme.

(not shown): 25' UTP CAT 6A from a second port on the same Netgear GS108E switch to a switch supplying the rest of my home LAN (computers, Apple TV box, DISH satellite TV, NAS (3), etc)

Tested:
UTP CAT 6A,
Sablon ethernet,
Audioquest CAT 7 with shielding lifted at one end

Hi Steve,

Interesting Ethernet cable comparison. Your test setup seems to confirm, after what I have read here, when/if/once ;-) you install the Taiko Router you can eliminate all interference / subjective SQ improvement you can hear now from upstream: routers, switches, power supplies, cables and your full home network attached. In other words, differences you can hear now, can not be heard anymore ;-).

Since you do not have the Taiko router and since with your current setup you CAN hear and appreciate upstream changes like for example a Sablon Ethernet cable you could try a few more things by (1) isolating your audio streaming as much from the rest of the network and (2) improving (not always more $$) the parts that facilitate that audio (only) stream :

* Netgear GS108E switch + good linear power supply + good DC cable (for example a JS-2)

* Same for Starlink router, use a better power supply unit but use the best LPS for the GS108 (you could temporarily test with your JS-2 for both) you could try a better AC cable.

* Replace Netgear GS108E switch with a better switch (Ubiquity, MikroTik or Audiophile Switch.) + good linear power supply + good DC cable.

* Cascade the Netgear GS108 with a second Netgear GS108 (compare Sablon or standard 1m CAT6A in between). Remember the better the DC power supplies the better the SQ. Use your best LPS for the second GS108 (or share both on one LPS). Good to know for testing purposes; GS108 runs also on 9V (and even 7V I believe).

* I would think the Sablon Ethernet is more effective in the last stretch connected to the Taiko Switch but I understand you need to bridge 50'. Once you have a Taiko Router this is not valid anymore because immune to Ethernet cable swaps.

* Disconnect the 25' UTP CAT 6A to the home LAN from the second port Netgear GS108E going to your Taiko setup (at least for listening sessions). This could implicate your tablet does not see the server anymore so you would need something like the MikroTik Map LITE ''acces point to audio only network'' as discussed here earlier by Emile. If you can not do that try connect the home network cable in the second row of ports (5-8). If ever the Starlink router provides for extra ethernet ports that could be better. Not ideal; use two switches one switch for home- and one for audio network (separate DC power).

* * edit: you mentioned in previous posts Starlink has one single ethernet port, I understand better now, you must have added a Starlink Ethernet Adapter. To obtain isolation you could go Wi-Fi to audio only (or home network only) and use single Ethernet for the other one. From the above suggestions I expect most improvement from physically isolating the audio from the home network, without having both on the same Netgear GS108E switch.

Again, once you have a Taiko Router all this is not valid anymore because (in theory) immune to Ethernet cable swaps or any upstream change. Still, for SQ one could compare Taiko Router through direct single ethernet port vs. Wi-Fi and Access Point to Starlink router.

Cheers,
Paul

- - -

PS New Moon Daughter by Cassandra Wilson I can not agree more! as good as Blue Light 'Til Dawn?
PS2 Stay Tuned! by Dominique Fils-Aimé
Favorite tracks: 3) Where there Is Smoke. 4) There is probably Fire.

Stay Tuned!, by Dominique Fils-Aimé

14 track album

singwithmi.bandcamp.com

 

[John T]

Hi Steve,

Interesting Ethernet cable comparison. Your test setup seems to confirm, after what I have read here, when/if/once ;-) you install the Taiko Router you can eliminate all interference / subjective SQ improvement you can hear now from upstream: routers, switches, power supplies, cables and your full home network attached.
Since you do not have the Taiko router and since with your current setup you seem to hear and appreciate upstream changes like for example a Sablon Ethernet cable you could try a few more things by (1) isolating your audio streaming as much from the rest of the network and improving (not always more $$) the parts that facilitate that audio (only) stream :

* Netgear GS108E switch + good linear power supply + good DC cable (for example a JS-2)

* Same for Starlink router, use a better power supply unit but use the best LPS for the GS108 (you could temporarily test with your JS-2 for both)

* Replace Netgear GS108E switch by a better switch (Ubiquity, MikroTik or Audiophile Switch.)

* Cascade the Netgear GS108 with a second Netgear GS108 (compare Sablon or standard 1m CAT6A in between). Remember the better the power supplies the better the SQ. Use your best LPS for the second GS108 (or share both on one LPS). Also for testing purposes; GS108 runs also on 9V (and even 7V I believe).

* I would think the Sablon Ethernet is more effective in the last stretch connected to the Taiko Switch but I understand you need to bridge 50'. Once you have a Taiko Router this is not valid anymore because immune to Ethernet cable swaps.

* Disconnect the 25' UTP CAT 6A to the home LAN from the second port Netgear GS108E going to your Taiko setup. This could implicate your tablet does not see the server anymore so you would need something like the MikroTik Map LITE ''acces point to audio only network'' as discussed here earlier by Emile. If you can not do that try connect the home network cable in the second row of ports (5-8). If ever the Starlink router provides for extra ethernet ports that could be better. Or use two switches one switch for home- and one for audio network.

Again, once you have a Taiko Router this is not valid anymore because immune to Ethernet cable swaps or any upstream change.

Cheers,
Paul

- - -

PS New Moon Daughter by Cassandra Wilson I can not agree more! as good as Blue Light 'Til Dawn?
PS2 Stay Tuned! by Dominique Fils-Aimé
Favorite tracks: 3) Where there Is Smoke. 4) There is probably Fire.

Stay Tuned!, by Dominique Fils-Aimé

14 track album

singwithmi.bandcamp.com

View attachment 112200

Her Nameless Album is also very good...

 

[Steve Williams]

Her Nameless Album is also very good...

All her albums are excellent

 

[Di-fi]

All her albums are excellent

After the excellent trilogy : Nameless (2018), Stay Tuned! (2019), Three little Words (2021) where Dominique explored blues, jazz and soul respectively, in retracing the history of black music, she now has an upcoming album Our Roots Run Deep in September 2023. The sonic signature of exceptional high precision layering of calm and quiet singing is so clear and expresses a lot of emotions.
A nice way to support Dominique and her excellent band (I greatly enjoyed seeing them live in Quebec City last year) is to pre-order and you get two tracks right away (WAV and FLAC download). Do also check out the video here;

 

[Kris]

Emile.
Is there a chance to add second SFP port in router ?
I was able to run the DAC cable from dream machine pro to switch and after that second DAC cable to extreme. That is a very promissing setup.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile.
Is there a chance to add second SFP port in router ?
I was able to run the DAC cable from dream machine pro to switch and after that second DAC cable to extreme. That is a very promissing setup.

No, not necessary.

 

[Kris]

No, not necessary.

Thank you, so you think Rj45 + ethernet cable will be as good as SFP + DAC cable ?

Also I understand we could potentially
1. Replace modem by coping the settings and its mac adress .
2. Replace router by trying to mimic the router MAC address.
This is for the ultimate performance ?

For little lower performance there will be original modem and 2 routers ( original + Taiko)
as a plug and play solution?

Were you able to deeply test this 2 above scenarios ?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thank you, so you think Rj45 + ethernet cable will be as good as SFP + DAC cable ?

Also I understand we could potentially
1. Replace modem by coping the settings and its mac adress .
2. Replace router by trying to mimic the router MAC address.
This is for the ultimate performance ?

For little lower performance there will be original modem and 2 routers ( original + Taiko)
as a plug and play solution?

Were you able to deeply test this 2 above scenarios ?

The benefit you’re experiencing is a further reduction of the switch power consumption by switching out a RJ45 port for SFP DAC which is the dominant form of noise generation in this switch design. What happens before is much less relevant in this area.

 

[Di-fi]

The benefit you’re experiencing is a further reduction of the switch power consumption by switching out a RJ45 port for SFP DAC which is the dominant form of noise generation in this switch design. What happens before is much less relevant in this area.

Hence @Kris comment:

Is there a chance to add second SFP port in router ?

Or am I missing something?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hence @Kris comment:

Or am I missing something?

Yeah for the router it’s different. It’s designed to work optimally that way, the partial isolation a rj45 input provides from a “noisier” upstream environment is beneficial in this case.

 

[oldmustang]

Hi Steve,

Interesting Ethernet cable comparison. Your test setup seems to confirm, after what I have read here, when/if/once ;-) you install the Taiko Router you can eliminate all interference / subjective SQ improvement you can hear now from upstream: routers, switches, power supplies, cables and your full home network attached. In other words, differences you can hear now, can not be heard anymore ;-).

Since you do not have the Taiko router and since with your current setup you CAN hear and appreciate upstream changes like for example a Sablon Ethernet cable you could try a few more things by (1) isolating your audio streaming as much from the rest of the network and (2) improving (not always more $$) the parts that facilitate that audio (only) stream :

* Netgear GS108E switch + good linear power supply + good DC cable (for example a JS-2)

* Same for Starlink router, use a better power supply unit but use the best LPS for the GS108 (you could temporarily test with your JS-2 for both) you could try a better AC cable.

* Replace Netgear GS108E switch with a better switch (Ubiquity, MikroTik or Audiophile Switch.) + good linear power supply + good DC cable.

* Cascade the Netgear GS108 with a second Netgear GS108 (compare Sablon or standard 1m CAT6A in between). Remember the better the DC power supplies the better the SQ. Use your best LPS for the second GS108 (or share both on one LPS). Good to know for testing purposes; GS108 runs also on 9V (and even 7V I believe).

* I would think the Sablon Ethernet is more effective in the last stretch connected to the Taiko Switch but I understand you need to bridge 50'. Once you have a Taiko Router this is not valid anymore because immune to Ethernet cable swaps.

* Disconnect the 25' UTP CAT 6A to the home LAN from the second port Netgear GS108E going to your Taiko setup (at least for listening sessions). This could implicate your tablet does not see the server anymore so you would need something like the MikroTik Map LITE ''acces point to audio only network'' as discussed here earlier by Emile. If you can not do that try connect the home network cable in the second row of ports (5-8). If ever the Starlink router provides for extra ethernet ports that could be better. Not ideal; use two switches one switch for home- and one for audio network (separate DC power).

* * edit: you mentioned in previous posts Starlink has one single ethernet port, I understand better now, you must have added a Starlink Ethernet Adapter. To obtain isolation you could go Wi-Fi to audio only (or home network only) and use single Ethernet for the other one. From the above suggestions I expect most improvement from physically isolating the audio from the home network, without having both on the same Netgear GS108E switch.

Again, once you have a Taiko Router all this is not valid anymore because (in theory) immune to Ethernet cable swaps or any upstream change. Still, for SQ one could compare Taiko Router through direct single ethernet port vs. Wi-Fi and Access Point to Starlink router.

Cheers,
Paul

- - -

PS New Moon Daughter by Cassandra Wilson I can not agree more! as good as Blue Light 'Til Dawn?
PS2 Stay Tuned! by Dominique Fils-Aimé
Favorite tracks: 3) Where there Is Smoke. 4) There is probably Fire.

Thanks for your interest, Paul. I appreciate you taking the time to reply with your suggestions.

A different (better) power cord is certainly an option for the StarLink router all-in-one power supply. I'll have to come up with a way to elevate the router somewhat since most audiophile power cords have quite bulky straight-in IEC plugs while the bottom-mounting StarLink OEM cord has a thin right-angle plug. If it were just me I'd grab a couple of bricks and some duct tape and have at it, but since the router sits on top of a nice marble top console table in our entry foyer anything I come up with has to pass the Architectural and Design committee (my wife). In the meantime, I have a Shunyata Venom Defender plugged into the other half of the duplex wall receptacle feeding the router.

VENOM DEFENDER - Shunyata Research

shunyata.com

I will say that right out of the box the StarLink equipment sounded better than the ActionTec 1900C modem/router it replaced, even with a decent LPS supplying the ActionTec.

As far as the rest of your homework assignment I'm going to procrastinate for now. I have a Taiko router and DC power distributor on order which hopefully will make the rest of the upstream upgrades moot. Plenty of time to burn those bridges before I come to them, after I get the Taiko router/switch audio-only sub-network up and operating.

I agree 100% with your Dominique Fils-Aime recommendation -- I'm quite the DFA fan and have all her albums. The 24/88.2 downloads from Qobuz are quite stunning.

Steve Z

 

[Di-fi]

Thanks for your interest, Paul. I appreciate you taking the time to reply with your suggestions.

A different (better) power cord is certainly an option for the StarLink router all-in-one power supply. I'll have to come up with a way to elevate the router somewhat since most audiophile power cords have quite bulky straight-in IEC plugs while the bottom-mounting StarLink OEM cord has a thin right-angle plug. If it were just me I'd grab a couple of bricks and some duct tape and have at it, but since the router sits on top of a nice marble top console table in our entry foyer anything I come up with has to pass the Architectural and Design committee (my wife). In the meantime, I have a Shunyata Venom Defender plugged into the other half of the duplex wall receptacle feeding the router.

VENOM DEFENDER - Shunyata Research

shunyata.com

I will say that right out of the box the StarLink equipment sounded better than the ActionTec 1900C modem/router it replaced, even with a decent LPS supplying the ActionTec.

As far as the rest of your homework assignment I'm going to procrastinate for now. I have a Taiko router and DC power distributor on order which hopefully will make the rest of the upstream upgrades moot. Plenty of time to burn those bridges before I come to them, after I get the Taiko router/switch audio-only sub-network up and operating.

I agree 100% with your Dominique Fils-Aime recommendation -- I'm quite the DFA fan and have all her albums. The 24/88.2 downloads from Qobuz are quite stunning.

Steve Z

Hi Steve,

It was/is fun reading your posts and you've got me involved. I totally understand if you have THE router coming (Congrats!) no use to invest much money or time on improving the network. But then again, waiting for THE router creates some time to experiment, I also totally understand and enjoy.

However I still wonder if and how you will separate connections for the home LAN and the audio stream with only one ethernet port. Please let us know by then what worked out best. The Starlink router, as I just learned, is a particular setup.

Maybe the committee will not notice a 90 Degree C14 to C5 Adapter (while you compromise on a possible negative effect of the cheap metal on the excellent AC cable)? Note that for some devices the male C5 prongs are not long enough.