Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

Kris

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Mar 4, 2019
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Good morning Kris,

Let me start with explaining the reason for my comment which is a bit out of character. It's just to get ahead of an inrush of questions to our support department if they should buy more then one switch which is not what we recommend. As an example your previous comments about a "huge difference' in sound between DAC cable lengths caused led to a significant amount of orders AND returns of just DAC cables in various lengths. Furthermore people are now ordering switches with multiple DAC cables lengths to subsequently return the surplus cables. As we don't resell returned products as new, and our employees receive a salary, if this keeps up we will actually have to raise our prices! Now if there actually was a significant difference there that would be absolutely fine, and I don't doubt you are hearing what you are hearing, but for the vast majority it's just not there. Luckily we have not had many people buy a second switch yet, which they will likely end up returning, so I just took the bold road and made a comment that your experience does not match the experiences of the vast majority, of which we do keep track as much as possible.

With that said, although you can use your network to "tune" your sound to a certain degree, I don't feel it's the most effective terrain to do so. What's really going on is you're using noise as a tuning measure. This can actually have a surprisingly large effect, and most of the time you're not lowering noise, but you're increasing it. Let me give you an example of using noise for tuning in music server software. You can use your system memory bank as a type of "resonator". By generating activity in system memory in varying patterns, you create different noise spectra, which modulate sound, to a shockingly large degree. You can also manipulate this from a hardware approach by altering memory refresh which is a necessary process which causes the maximum current draw of a memory module which by default happens every 7.8 microseconds. Now you can spread and vary this over time, the more modules / memory rows you have, the more you can spread this for a more even noise pattern, which is generally preferred, but your preference may actually be different if you're using this mechanism deliberately to ALTER your sound. Touching on a post I made yesterday on USB, the 8KHz packet rate can be manipulated to alter sound as well. It can be used to change the perception of incisiveness and dynamics (punch), or it can be manipulated to sound smoother, basically by altering (distorting) the data waveform traveling through the conductors. Interestingly worse technical performance can be preferred audibly, which absolutely presents some engineering challenges, aiming for optimal technical performance, or for a more pleasing sound.

"noise" tuning is just an unavoidable significant part of high-end audio. We all are aware that the best technical specs do not always translate into the best sound. There's a vast array of tuning devices out there which deliberately inject or manipulate noise into our systems to create an effect. Your additional switches are not lowering noise, they are increasing it. The 5M DAC cable is a little bit worse technically and a bit noisier then a 2M DAC cable, but can controversially sound a bit smoother. However you are manipulating a whole pool of noise, think of cooking a big pot of soup adding lots of ingredients, each adding to the final flavour. If you accidentally added too much salt, it's very hard to get the flavour right again, now you can add sugar to mask the overly salty taste to a degree, but you won't get rid of it and the final dish won't be that great. If it need to be perfect the only solution is to start over again. Luckily we don't have to start over again in our systems, but you do need to find the salty component or part which is causing this severe disbalance, which just is a better approach then to trying to mask it by adding sugar.

A few questions:

1) Do you notice a large difference between daytime and nighttime listening?
2) Do you have friends who when listening to your system agree with this imbalance?
3) Do you use tilted up components like for example Furutech NCF Rhodium plugs or outlets, or Silver/Rhodium plated plugs / outlets from other companies?
Thank you Emile for taking a time and effort for that explanation.
I am so happy that you and many other of members here try to help !

1. after 10 PM it is always much better. At 1 AM it is best usually.
2. No. My System is very expensive in total so it is „masking„ imperfections. Also I always invite people when I fine tune the system and overall „soup” is very tasty. People are usually amazed and want to stay over night Just to be able to keep listening .
3. Unfortunate YES . All my outlets are Furutech rhodium,
I have Oyaide 5,3 mm2 Dedicated lines direct to my listening room.
Is Rhodium in your opinion a SALT in my system?
I have 2 pure copper ( no plating) outlets that I ordered a week ago and I could try to use Them.

Also all my plugs are gold plated. All DC cables Mundorf silver/gold.

I already ordered power Quality recording ( one week) that John T recommended. This is exactly what I planned to do for last few months. If there is all good with power delivery it will be a good news .
If there are issues I will know what is wrong .
 
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RUIN*ish

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Day 4 of run in and switch and nic beginning to come alive.. literally..
Listening to ROON and Radio Paradise...
I do have switch powered by a SJ dc4arc6...
Been using an Innuos Pnet for years.
Thus far, this is far superior in every way..
Thank you to Ed, Christaan, and Ted for their time and support... it's been a rough couple weeks...
Looking at our weather, I think it'll be a extended listening session today.

Mn
 

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Kris

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@Kris:If you have a good power company provider a recording device can be installed at the meter. They can dump the data once per week for awhile. My company did it for a month. the device measures THD, voltage swings, DC offset, and a number of other parameters. Its worth a try and shouldn't cost anything. Reason I went to this length is, without mentioning the company. I had a noisy monoblock a several years back, the company said it was coming from the panel. B---S---. When I sent them all the data that was collected they sang a different tune and admitted it was a bad transformer. Hope this helps...
Thank you John for recommendation.
I was thinking about it for some time and only reason I was not so sure if I need it ,
was that it is costy here. It must be a professional doing it and it needs very specyfic equipement .
it takes a werk +,
This is what they do to prevent people from doing it.
1500 Euro is a minimum price for a report. Usual price 2000+ So it is effective way of not haning power delivery complains..
But I Will do it any way. Just to be sure.
Thank you again John !
 

Kris

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Mar 4, 2019
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Indeed!

Electricity and the listening room's acoustics are two key elements whose impact is huge and often overlooked.

We could think of them as the first and last components in the musical reproduction chain.
Thank you Tom!
I hired professional company 10 years ago and spent 35 K Euro just for the 4 walls and ceiling to be acoustically treated. 94 individual pannels in total in 27 sqm room. All covered with alcantara.
I exclude the Acoustics as primary issue here.
So it looks power OR proposed by Emile Rhodium outlets are the reason.
 
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microstrip

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Technical dats
Max inrush current: Approx 120-200 A peak depending of chosen diode type.Max continuous current: See datasheet for used capacitors (102000uf =z impedance 0.032Ohms)1000?att
Runs 3 years in this little mono amps 740watt class a/ 2ohms perfect heard nothing out of the ordinary. testing is above studying.

The impedance of the capacitors is stated at 50 or 60Hz Hz. However, as the current demanded by rectified power supplies is pulsed we have to face a different situation. If we are happy inserting them in series with the mains, no problem. But IMO people paying fortunes for special wires and plugs must consider it. As electronics designed and manufactured in the US are just tested at 60Hz, sometimes in Europe using 50Hz that operates at an higher flux the power transformers become very sensitive to offset, causing mechanical noise in the equipment. The usual suggestion from dealers is inserting these DC blockers, but I have found them to have a significant effect in sound quality, for example in conrad johnson electronics. Surely IMO, YMMV.

a1.png
 

John T

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Feb 15, 2022
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Thank you John for recommendation.
I was thinking about it for some time and only reason I was not so sure if I need it ,
was that it is costy here. It must be a professional doing it and it needs very specyfic equipement .
it takes a werk +,
This is what they do to prevent people from doing it.
1500 Euro is a minimum price for a report. Usual price 2000+ So it is effective way of not haning power delivery complains..
But I Will do it any way. Just to be sure.
Thank you again John !
I didn't realize or I forgot you are in Europe....Your Welcome Kris...Good luck...
 
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Kris

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To add to what John T wrote --

In my civilian career I worked professionally in electrical power generation and distribution. Most developed countries have set standards for electrical power quality and by permitting and regulation require power companies to deliver to their customers electrical power that meets these standards. As John wrote, these standards cover a variety of important parameters. FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission), ANSI (American National Standards Institute) and IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers) are such standards setting organizations.

In John's case DC offset was key because it can cause customer equipment containing transformers to audibly hum, it causes transformer heating, and it is less efficient (wastes power) because of this transformer heating. In worst case scenarios excessive DC offset can lead to transformer failure.

However, other parameters can be just as important and can have equally audible effects on consumer audio equipment. A good Wikipedia article giving insight into electrical power quality is here:


While it is possible for an individual to borrow, rent or buy equipment to measure the various parameters associated with electrical power quality, most regulatory jurisdictions require the power company to provide this monitoring free of charge in response to customer complaints and concerns, and more importantly, the power company is required to correct problems and repair or replace distribution equipment up to the point of entry in the case of non-conforming power quality.

It is worth contacting your power company if you suspect a power-related problem because most power companies do not have the sophisticated equipment to continuously "look" out into their distribution and detect anything other than high-level problems. They likely are not aware of a problem at a specific pole-mounted distribution transformer, cracked or arcing insulators, or missing ground leads. This last can be a real problem in areas where copper or aluminum theft is lucrative enough and transformer ground leads are stripped right off wooden power poles.

Steve Z
Thank you Steve
This is very helpful.
Here where I live in Europe you are responsible for proving proof they deliver bad power.
They requested me to provide very expensive equipement ( 10 k Euro) reading and report for a minimum of 1 week to start my complain !
As you imagine only professional companies have 10 k power reading / recording equipement so I need to spend 1500 - 2000 E for them to do it and to write a professional report,
But I will do it soon.

as of today I am quite sure I have DC offset as all my big trafos are humming from time to time.
 
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microstrip

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Thank you John for recommendation.
I was thinking about it for some time and only reason I was not so sure if I need it ,
was that it is costy here. It must be a professional doing it and it needs very specyfic equipement .
it takes a werk +,
This is what they do to prevent people from doing it.
1500 Euro is a minimum price for a report. Usual price 2000+ So it is effective way of not haning power delivery complains..
But I Will do it any way. Just to be sure.
Thank you again John !

As long as we do not know exactly what to look for it will be a mysterious and expensive operation. But you can easily record your mains for a week and ask an electronics or physics engineering student to analyze it ... Except for the amplitude and the safety concerns, mains is not different from audio signals!
 
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Taiko Audio

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taikoaudio.com
Thank you Emile for taking a time and effort for that explanation.
I am so happy that you and many other of members here try to help !

1. after 10 PM it is always much better. At 1 AM it is best usually.
2. No. My System is very expensive in total so it is „masking„ imperfections. Also I always invite people when I fine tune the system and overall „soup” is very tasty. People are usually amazed and want to stay over night Just to be able to keep listening .
3. Unfortunate YES . All my outlets are Furutech rhodium,
I have Oyaide 5,3 mm2 Dedicated lines direct to my listening room.
Is Rhodium in your opinion a SALT in my system?
I have 2 pure copper ( no plating) outlets that I ordered a week ago and I could try to use Them.

Also all my plugs are gold plated. All DC cables Mundorf silver/gold.

I already ordered power Quality recording ( one week) that John T recommended. This is exactly what I planned to do for last few months. If there is all good with power delivery it will be a good news .
If there are issues I will know what is wrong .

I would definitely look into trying something else then the Furutech NCF rhodium and Mundorf SG can be bright too.
 
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Kris

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Mar 4, 2019
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I would definitely look into trying something else then the Furutech NCF rhodium and Mundorf SG can be bright too.
I checked those Outlets I puchesed a week ago. Those are pure copper from Viborg.
Will try to install them as soon as I can.
I was trying to replace Mundorf S/G DC cables 4 months ago but I loose to much of the air and transparency.
Will start with Copper outlets first.
Power recording is next.
 

nonesup

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The impedance of the capacitors is stated at 50 or 60Hz Hz. However, as the current demanded by rectified power supplies is pulsed we have to face a different situation. If we are happy inserting them in series with the mains, no problem. But IMO people paying fortunes for special wires and plugs must consider it. As electronics designed and manufactured in the US are just tested at 60Hz, sometimes in Europe using 50Hz that operates at an higher flux the power transformers become very sensitive to offset, causing mechanical noise in the equipment. The usual suggestion from dealers is inserting these DC blockers, but I have found them to have a significant effect in sound quality, for example in conrad johnson electronics. Surely IMO, YMMV.

View attachment 112811
I agree with you regarding CC blockers. My old Constellation amp had that DC hum problem. It could be removed with an Isotek Syncro, but the SQ was greatly decreased. I finally switched to Gryphon with no buzz at all.
 

cmarin

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I would definitely look into trying something else then the Furutech NCF rhodium and Mundorf SG can be bright too.
Hi Emile,

Do the Furutech NCF rhodium plugs/outlets create/accentuate "a large difference between daytime and nighttime listening?"
 

nenon

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Jan 29, 2020
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Do the Furutech NCF rhodium plugs/outlets create/accentuate "a large difference between daytime and nighttime listening?"
No. That's a sign of polluted power lines.
It was pretty bad for me in downtown Chicago. It's a little better (but still "night and day" different) in the Chicago suburbs.
As your system gets more revealing, these fluctuations become more and more obvious. That's the curse of high-end audio.
 

7ryder

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Jan 31, 2015
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No. That's a sign of polluted power lines.
It was pretty bad for me in downtown Chicago. It's a little better (but still "night and day" different) in the Chicago suburbs.
As your system gets more revealing, these fluctuations become more and more obvious. That's the curse of high-end audio.
The other curse is the cost of high-end audio!
 

oldmustang

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For those who are a couple months or more living with the switch/nic..

Is it fair to suggest your kit sounds the least "hifi" it ever has?
Indeed. It is an absolute joy to sit down and listen to music each and every evening.

Steve Z
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Indeed. It is an absolute joy to sit down and listen to music each and every evening.

Steve Z
Not only is it the best digital I’ve heard in my system but I’m now finding that it is difficult, if not impossible to discern streamed music versus music played from my internal files
 

Fishfood

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Not only is it the best digital I’ve heard in my system but I’m now finding that it is difficult, if not impossible to discern streamed music versus music played from my internal files
Sorry Steve, but would you be able to list what components you have in your streaming chain? I wasn't able to easily see what you are having such a great experience with.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
All tube system
Lamm Signature series
Horizon DAC SRS 551 pentodes, Tungsol brown base ECC32 triodes and Valvo G2504 rectifier
Extreme with Taiko usb csrd
Taiko Switch and NIC
awaiting delivery in a month or so of the Tsiko router
New Extreme witth BPS is in the plans

BTW you’re close to me , Emile is hoping to be here in the final quarter to do a soft launch of the BPS at my house. Im well over 40 coming so far from all over the country and as far away as Brazil
 
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microstrip

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Not only is it the best digital I’ve heard in my system but I’m now finding that it is difficult, if not impossible to discern streamed music versus music played from my internal files

Strong statement. Now, how will we get an excuse to buy the router?
 

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