TechDas Air Force One

[audioarcher]

It's called introductory pricing. Gives people an incentive to be an early adopter.

As for Magico's prices, the new models do appear to be more expensive to produce. Mainly because of the use of aluminum vs wood.

 

[JackD201]

No Peter, I will not go for the TechDas, next project is not about a turntable. I have three big turntables left. I did not intend selling the Micro at any time but due to space problems "in my small room" there is no other option. BTW it is all original, no repairs, no other parts at all.

Yeah right! By the way, love your new "small" Klangs!

 

[mep]

Here are my thoughts with regard to the pricing. If you come to a show with a new product and you really haven't figured out the pricing yet, don't price it. CES was just held in January. This is early February. I can't think of any market conditions that would have caused a $15K-$20K price jump in one month. It makes it appear that you really didn't know what your price should be before the price was established or that you are just greedy and charging what the market will bear. If you are rushing a product to market in order to bring it to a show like CES and you really don't know what you need to charge, you should tell people that the final price hasn't been determined yet. If people ask for a range, give them a range you feel comfortable you won't exceed. If they want to get in line to get the product, take a deposit and tell them when the final price is established if they aren't comfortable with it, you will refund their deposit.

 

[JackD201]

There is a three month wait for these tables. There is also quite a bit of a wait for Bob's arms. Demand is out stripping supply, so price goes up. Equilibrium. It happens with wheat, and concentrated orange juice. Ever hear the one about the Congressman that wanted to repeal the Law on Supply and Demand? LOL.

 

[audioarcher]

Here are my thoughts with regard to the pricing. If you come to a show with a new product and you really haven't figured out the pricing yet, don't price it. CES was just held in January. This is early February. I can't think of any market conditions that would have caused a $15K-$20K price jump in one month. It makes it appear that you really didn't know what your price should be before the price was established or that you are just greedy and charging what the market will bear. If you are rushing a product to market in order to bring it to a show like CES and you really don't know what you need to charge, you should tell people that the final price hasn't been determined yet. If people ask for a range, give them a range you feel comfortable you won't exceed. If they want to get in line to get the product, take a deposit and tell them when the final price is established if they aren't comfortable with it, you will refund their deposit.

Sounds reasonable. I think the TechDas AF1 has been around for a while. Maybe about a year or two? It is just now being imported to the US. It would be easier to take if they said up front that the $85k was an introductory offer. Not that I am or will be in a position to buy one either way.

 

[The Phantom]

My thoughts exactly steve, it's $80k retail down under.

My understanding is that the world pricing is supposed to be stabllized at $100K. As Steve suggests (post #26 2)I was in hopes that the MSRP could be lower, but export markets in other areas were the deciding force - along with the costs of obtaining these hand-made-to-order instruments in the first place - in the MSRP.

I am trying to make things more attractive - if that's the right word here- by offering the dedicated Phantom Elite at a reduced price from it's stand-alone retail. And even here there's a rub; the unit offered with the AF-1 is NOT offered by itself, as it's cosmetic details are exclusive to the AF-1. I plan to offer a variation on the Elite (in terms of cosmetics, anyway) for use with other turntables, and this alone will, as I said before, cost in the $9500 range.

This is not the place for me to be marketing anything; I'm just commenting on the newest observatons and setting the formal record straight. But I do believe at least one competitive turntable and arm is in the same price range, and I believe the AF-1 to far superior in all things, including practicality, freedom from maintenance or the need to hide the vacuum pump in another room.

Serious buyers, as I said, are free to contact me (or the distributor in their own market area, as we are strictly held responsible for our own geographic areas only) for further marketing informtion; others will, no doubt, be looking at a distance - and with comments, probably. Debate, and tire kicking is expected in this business, even from those who never intend to buy, but to comment. I just want to make sure the facts are on target... -

"Sound Affair" suggests $80k in Australia, and I don't know anything about that market, but I suspect it, too, will be required to change.

 

[The Phantom]

Reasonable comment, and I admit that the world pricing was still being stablized as CES was approaching. But you'd be surprised at the number of people who just won't stand still for an estimate; they want DETAILS, and NOW..! If I priced it way high, to be safe, The Word would quickly spread that it's gouging. If it's too low, and we try to stick to it for "promises" sake, then, like any other busienss model (retailing, doctors, lawyers (!!!!), and so on) then we can't survive very long.

It happens a lot to me with the tonearms: I tell someone we're waiting for parts from our vendors (who are, too often, late with their promised deliveries to us, which then makes us look The Fool.) Under duress, I tell the waiting customer that IF such-and-such parts are ready on a certain date, as promised, and IF there is nothing wrong with those parts (we are, after all, responsible for delivering a first-class product, not someone else's mistakes), and then again, IF the anodizing, plating and other metal finishing steps are finished on time, we then can predict about a 1-month delivery date.
"But until I have the parts in my hand, this is only a best-guess estimate!",I tell them. Allthough many are reasonable and patient, there are others to have pressed for "just a guess" and then comes the day they asked me to forcast (against my better judgment) from a crystal ball comes and goes, then the tact goes out the window: "YOU PROMISED me I'd have it by this date and now I don't! What's the matter,anway - aren't you SERIOUS about this>???!!" (And other rude comments sometimes come flying by)....

All of which makes me sad, becuase we do our level best to give the world market the very best tonearm we can make (and which many feel IS the best), and at a reasonable price, and in a reasaonable time. But you just can't please some, it seems. And so, with the turntable - which we do not make - other factors were in play to determine final pricing. But it remains, I believe,that this turnable and arm is, far and away, the most exciting and sonically accurate device to come down the road in a long time. Perhaps ever. It's like a Maserati: definitely not cheap, but also definitely something you'll love forever... And we continue to do our best. - Bob

 

[JackD201]

Hi Bob,

We've never met and never even exchanged any form of communication. I have been using two versions of the B-44 for years and your local (Philippine) distributor George M. is someone I have known even before we discovered we shared the same hobby. I did place an order for an AF1 Elite with him.

There is something I would like to commend you on. While I have had to wait for wands before, I know that you never, ever demanded or accepted any deposits or downpayments until you've actually had the items ready to ship. It may be a small thing but to me it shows that money isn't the first thing on your mind.

All the Best,

Jack Duavit
Manila, Philippines

 

[paskinn]

I haven't been reading this lately - a lot of things to take care of at work; however, to settle the price issue: the AF-1 will selll for $97,000 by itself; as the U.S./Canadian/S. American distributor, I can also offer the dedicated Phantom ELITE (shown only in our room at CES, and about $9500 by itself) with cabling sourced from Nordost - to my specifications - for $103,000 as a package system.

Some, like contributor Paskinn (post #253) will complain that any turntable over $1000 is too much, but then again, how about $200k or $300K speakers,$15k cartridges, $100K+ electronics, and expensive cable systems, all of which seem to have an active following. In this day and age, controlled, it seems, by financial powers greater (and, it seems, more often than not, reckless) than ours, this price is commensurate with other works of lasting quality and unsurpassed engineering and beauty. Not to mention the sound - or lack of it! This turntable has no releveant signature, and when combined with the new Elite arm will provide, I say here and now, the closest approach to the real thing this side of a master-tape. Anyone seriously interested can contact me for details... Sales pending already, even in advance of upcoming reviews, too...!

- Bob Graham

Actually Mr Graham 'reader paskinn' has spent many thousands of dollars on arms, including two of yours, and has a current turntable' which costs around $60,000'Given the way you chose to denigrate me, I can assure you my money won't be going on Graham products in the future.BTW, both Graham arms, 2.2 and Phantom, developed faults, and both were outdated within months of my buying them.So now we both have our thoughts on the record

 

[JackD201]

Good luck Jack hope it does well for you, curious as to what retail price you have put on the AF-1 i've seen pricing from 5 million yen to 6.5 million yen?

Ooops missed this. 6.5M Yen before taxes and duties, freight, handling and insurance. Being close to Japan and because of the JPEPA trade agreement we'll likely come in lower than Bob's US price, not that it will matter because as Bob says, we only sell within our territories. Severe penalties can ensue should there be a breach.

Problem is the Yen is probably one of the currencies with the largest fluxes. I remember one year when I had a ball because it was at 85 to the $. Later that year it was close to 110. Ouch. Importers like us will have to study this very, very carefully. The Euro has been bouncing up and down too. Something all consumers should be aware of. It's a huge part of why prices are subject to change.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Problem is the Yen is probably one of the currencies with the largest fluxes. I remember one year when I had a ball because it was at 85 to the $. Later that year it was close to 110. Ouch. Importers like us will have to study this very, very carefully. The Euro has been bouncing up and down too. Something all consumers should be aware of. It's a huge part of why prices are subject to change.

That's what I was trying to point out before and it works in other ways. What does a US manufacturer do if parts (say an arm lift) they buy from Japan doubles in price because of currency fluctuation? And then their foreign distributors will order as many pieces as possible at the "lower" currency induced price. It's difficult for a manufacturer to "price" their product dependent upon currency exchange rates ergo they lose money. If these rates persist for an extended period of time, a manufacturer eventually needs to raise thei prices.

 

[mep]

Again Myles, we are only talking about one month from CES to the announced price increase. I think Bob summed it up pretty well, and I think it was in response to my last post. Everybody involved in distributing the table hadn't come to agreement on how to set the price and it was very much in flux at the time of the CES show. The bottom line is that for those who are in the market to actually buy this table, the price increase isn't going to change that decision. The tire kickers like me that are sitting on the sideline carping about the price increase don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I wasn't going to buy it if it cost $50K.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Again Myles, we are only talking about one month from CES to the announced price increase. I think Bob summed it up pretty well, and I think it was in response to my last post. Everybody involved in distributing the table hadn't come to agreement on how to set the price and it was very much in flux at the time of the CES show. The bottom line is that for those who are in the market to actually buy this table, the price increase isn't going to change that decision. The tire kickers like me that are sitting on the sideline carping about the price increase don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I wasn't going to buy it if it cost $50K.

I think I mentioned that too in an earlier post

I was just trying to point out they're lot's of forces at work that contribute to the pricing of foreign gear or American gear sold overseas.

And yes.

 

[JackD201]

CES week exchange rate ~88 Y to 1 USD , Now ~93 Y to 1 USD

 

[FrantzM]

CES week exchange rate ~88 Y to 1 USD , Now ~93 Y to 1 USD

Jack

I am all for a company making his profits. I am a businessperson as well. It is all good that one rides the waves that make you money. I would however look for rationales other than the Yen to Dollar exchange rate... An increase from 88 Yen to 93 is about .06% .. If the exchange rate was the only reason then the price increase would have been from $85,000 to $89,250 ... Not $100,000 ... about $10,000 more, enough to get the Graham Arm in ... It could be pre-preemptive anticipating a continuous devaluation of the dollar, something I am not sure the Japanese government would like to see.

 

[The Phantom]

Actually Mr Graham 'reader paskinn' has spent many thousands of dollars on arms, including two of yours, and has a current turntable' which costs around $60,000'Given the way you chose to denigrate me, I can assure you my money won't be going on Graham products in the future.BTW, both Graham arms, 2.2 and Phantom, developed faults, and both were outdated within months of my buying them.So now we both have our thoughts on the record

Sigh! This is the kind of thing I try hard to avoid, and which is why I generally do not get embroiled in chat-rooms. There are as many personalities and moods as there are people alive, and reading something into someone else's thoughts is tricky business. In the case of Msr. Paskinn (chat name), no denigration was intended. But from his post, it sounded very much as though he didn't think that much of analogue as the preferred medium, and that the AF-1 was a passing fancy. Such a comment often comes from a digital enthusiast, or someone who is not heavily invested in turntables.

In this instance, I was mistaken (and see how hard it really IS to figure someone out, especially having never met), and to the degree that the good Mr. Paskinn feels slighted, I apologize. But I was trying to make the point that pricing is all relative; to some, cables costing the price of a small automobile are OK, but don't try to sell them a $15K cartridge. It's all personal, and I think Dr. Astor has touched on these issues in his posts.

But Mr. Paskinn could, I think, have been a bit more gracious in trying to come back with a public slam about the problems (which I didn't know about, but which surely would have been taken care of at no charge, and possibly with a "freebee" accessory thrown in to help ease the pain). Our reputation for quality is well-earned, and if anyone in my company sometimes miss something, well - I don't like it, and try to make sure it gets prooperly taken care of, and soon.

As for being "outdated", that's also an unfortunate rewrite of what actually happens. New models do not come out annually; often it's two, three or more years for something to appear. If an update does lend itself, then I make it immeditely available, and at very low cost, to recent purchasers of our products. We are also known, I believe, for not "outmoding" our products with irrevocable changes; all the 2.x arms and the current Phantom arms can be brought up to current specs, and again at a very reasonable price. And beyond all that, why does an improved model suddenly make the older one so "inferior"? It is, after all, just as good as it was when it was the top dog; surely, older models don't go into self-destruct just because a newer one is available....

We find our policies - which I am extremelly grateful to see posted by Mr.Duavit (#288), bring in more friends and appreciation of our efforts than do those who, like the readers who dislike a comment in the audio magazines, go off in a huff and publically declare their subsctiption cancellation. Sorry also that reader Paskinn felt the need to huff off in this manner. No one wins in those situations....

 

[PeterA]

Some, like contributor Paskinn (post #253) will complain that any turntable over $1000 is too much, ....

- Bob Graham[/QUOTE]

Bob, I just read Paskinn's post #253 and it makes no mention of cost. On what do you base your characterization of Paskinn? His post seems quite well reasoned. I happen to know he owns a very expensive belt drive turntable.

 

[JackD201]

Hi Frantz,

Didn't say it was all of it Frantz but definitely a part. Oh and it's almost 6 percent not .06% Make that 12% to keep the usual points ratios and you're closer now to $95,000 without the arm. So why maintain point ratios? It's in the contract between distributors and dealers/retailers.

I'm not using it as a rationale my friend. I paid at 88 to 1 on the first order and 92 to one on the second. I'll surely pay another rate for the third, fourth......

Now for accounting purposes I can't have a retail price that changes with every tick. What I can book is discounts that reflect favorable forex rates at that place in time. The fast moving pieces we have to stock up on. Obviously the AF1 isn't one of these. One time we stocked at 50PHP to 1$ for loudspeakers and integrated amps for the fall/xmas season within a few months this dropped to 44PHP to 1$ due to unusually strong remittances from overseas workers. We took some hits there. Part of the business though so not whining (just hurting)

Jack

 

[The Phantom]

Again Myles, we are only talking about one month from CES to the announced price increase. I think Bob summed it up pretty well, and I think it was in response to my last post. Everybody involved in distributing the table hadn't come to agreement on how to set the price and it was very much in flux at the time of the CES show. The bottom line is that for those who are in the market to actually buy this table, the price increase isn't going to change that decision. The tire kickers like me that are sitting on the sideline carping about the price increase don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I wasn't going to buy it if it cost $50K.

MEP has it right on the mark. There were a lot of discussions and such going on up to and past CES time. It's unfortunate that the pricing possiblities were tossed out there, but it was an attempt to find SOME kind of starting point (and one I would have adhered to, in the event of a sale at that moment) until the dust settled on final costs. Thanks, too, to Myles Astor for putting some calming waters on these discussions. I'm far better off designing than debating.....!

Good wishes to all - Bob G.

 

[DaveyF]

Sigh! This is the kind of thing I try hard to avoid, and which is why I generally do not get embroiled in chat-rooms. There are as many personalities and moods as there are people alive, and reading something into someone else's thoughts is tricky business. In the case of Msr. Paskinn (chat name), no denigration was intended. But from his post, it sounded very much as though he didn't think that much of analogue as the preferred medium, and that the AF-1 was a passing fancy. Such a comment often comes from a digital enthusiast, or someone who is not heavily invested in turntables.

In this instance, I was mistaken (and see how hard it really IS to figure someone out, especially having never met), and to the degree that the good Mr. Paskinn feels slighted, I apologize. But I was trying to make the point that pricing is all relative; to some, cables costing the price of a small automobile are OK, but don't try to sell them a $15K cartridge. It's all personal, and I think Dr. Astor has touched on these issues in his posts.

But Mr. Paskinn could, I think, have been a bit more gracious in trying to come back with a public slam about the problems (which I didn't know about, but which surely would have been taken care of at no charge, and possibly with a "freebee" accessory thrown in to help ease the pain). Our reputation for quality is well-earned, and if anyone in my company sometimes miss something, well - I don't like it, and try to make sure it gets prooperly taken care of, and soon.

As for being "outdated", that's also an unfortunate rewrite of what actually happens. New models do not come out annually; often it's two, three or more years for something to appear. If an update does lend itself, then I make it immeditely available, and at very low cost, to recent purchasers of our products. We are also known, I believe, for not "outmoding" our products with irrevocable changes; all the 2.x arms and the current Phantom arms can be brought up to current specs, and again at a very reasonable price. And beyond all that, why does an improved model suddenly make the older one so "inferior"? It is, after all, just as good as it was when it was the top dog; surely, older models don't go into self-destruct just because a newer one is available....

We find our policies - which I am extremelly grateful to see posted by Mr.Duavit (#288), bring in more friends and appreciation of our efforts than do those who, like the readers who dislike a comment in the audio magazines, go off in a huff and publically declare their subsctiption cancellation. Sorry also that reader Paskinn felt the need to huff off in this manner. No one wins in those situations....

Bob, I can't talk for other forum members, BUT I consider your response to Mr.Paskinn's post as not only VERY appropriate but also VERY professional. I have personally dealt with several well-known manufacturer's in our hobby that do not have the same concern or feelings for their customer. Your attitude is one that would give me a very good comfort level with dealing with you and your Company, and I will hope to do so in the future.