Very happy to see some one who prefers the original and true Air Force One - the Forsell. Three air bearings with separate pumps and surge tanks - flywheel, platter and tonearm. And it did not cost me six figures ...
I'll be moving my Phantom II. The Phantom I, TriPlanar U2 and TW 10.5 will stay on the AC-3.
You know me.........cartridge addict. The Atlas will probably go on the AF1 but with wands so easy to swap, I expect I'll get to try the XV-1t, Proteus, A90 and Ultra Eminent BC on it as well.
My phonostage is a very simple one with four inputs fitted with 3 pairs of custom toroid SUTs from Germany with a power supply that is virtually battery powered. It lives and dies by the tubes used. I use matched and balanced Telefunken 801s and 803s. Right now they have Mundorf caps but I may try Duelund or Venhaus teflon foils in the future.
I am curious how they implement the vacuum hold down with TAF1. Remember the Versa Dynamics and how early models ruined the "B" side of albums because of dirt on the platter?
john came up with the best mat going. i had one on my Versa 1.0 i wish it was available when i had a sota cosmos and star sapphire. sota's solution at the time was a very thin cloth membrane that helped little and still harmed the vinyl. bicht's mat actually trapped particles that could never embed themselves into the vinyl - it worked flawlessly.
john came up with the best mat going. i had one on my Versa 1.0 i wish it was available when i had a sota cosmos and star sapphire. sota's solution at the time bwas a very thin cloth membrane that did nothing. bicht's mat actually trapped particles that could never embed themselves into the vinyl - it worked flawlessly.
I'm leaving for the US on the first and will be back a couple of weeks after so I requested that the delivery be end of January. I've got lots of Delta miles racked up so I might even go to Tokyo which is only a few hours away to pick it up myself.
I am curious how they implement the vacuum hold down with TAF1. Remember the Versa Dynamics and how early models ruined the "B" side of albums because of dirt on the platter?
I believe that this was extensively thought through.
If you look at the center "heart" of the AF1, it comprises 3 layers. The bottom screws down into the chassis, the center layer protected by two O-rings is the positive air pressure for the air bearing, and the top part is the negative air pressure for the hold-down.
The platter, then is also separated into two parts. The inner part where the label is stays at atmospheric pressure. This is also so that any dust on the label itself does not get sucked into the vacuum pump.
The vacuum hold-down is only on the playing part of the LP. We assume that you'll keep it fairly clean. If you've got a speck of sand, then the vacuum is going to impress it into your grooves. But this is mitigated by the replaceable, disposable platter sheet which is fairly soft. This sheet also has anti-static properties, and protects both the platter as well as the LP.
One extremely neat trick with the AF1 is that when you turn the suction off and then press stop, a little puff of air pushes the LP up so that it's easier to remove.
I have my present table positioned in a null and under my ceiling bass traps a good 12 to 15 feet away from my loudspeakers. I've also got it on a CLD platform on a very inert rack which includes elbow bearing interfaces between them. Feedback was never a problem. The TW has a fantastic platter and a fantastic bearing too so self noise was likewise never an issue. I was pretty much done with TT lust until the silent vacuum hold down showed itself.
Congrats, Jack. We had the AF1 directly facing 6 woofers of the Genesis Dragon, and there was absolutely no feedback!
The quietest pump I've had prior to the AF1 was on the SOTA Millenium - and even that one needed to be placed far away on the floor somewhere during RMAF/CES. There are others that you need to build an out-house or another sound-proof room for.
Unfortunately, that seems to be the general sentiment. Anything "plastic" should be cheap.
However, acrylic is hard to work with and maintain precision. That is why precision machined acrylic can end up significantly more expensive than aluminum. They have to be worked at much more slowly as a high-speed machine will melt the acrylic while it's cutting, and the tolerance and precision goes out the window.
Just like you have different quality of aluminum, there are differing quality of acrylic. The cell-cast high-molecular weight acrylic that is likely to be used for turntables (and which I use for the G2jr) costs nearly 6x more than the extruded Mexico or China-imported stuff that's used for table toppers, etc.
Unfortunately, that seems to be the general sentiment. Anything "plastic" should be cheap.
However, acrylic is hard to work with and maintain precision. That is why precision machined acrylic can end up significantly more expensive than aluminum. They have to be worked at much more slowly as a high-speed machine will melt the acrylic while it's cutting, and the tolerance and precision goes out the window.
Just like you have different quality of aluminum, there are differing quality of acrylic. The cell-cast high-molecular weight acrylic that is likely to be used for turntables (and which I use for the G2jr) costs nearly 6x more than the extruded Mexico or China-imported stuff that's used for table toppers, etc.
Unfortunately, that seems to be the general sentiment. Anything "plastic" should be cheap.
However, acrylic is hard to work with and maintain precision. That is why precision machined acrylic can end up significantly more expensive than aluminum. They have to be worked at much more slowly as a high-speed machine will melt the acrylic while it's cutting, and the tolerance and precision goes out the window.
Just like you have different quality of aluminum, there are differing quality of acrylic. The cell-cast high-molecular weight acrylic that is likely to be used for turntables (and which I use for the G2jr) costs nearly 6x more than the extruded Mexico or China-imported stuff that's used for table toppers, etc.
I think you actually understate the problem and machining acrylic platters to "tight" tolerances" is even harder than you represent Gary. It's driven some manufacturers, such as VPI, away (as well as good sources of acrylic for platters has dried up--the main supplier is now China and from what I've been told--is not very good) and into something like Al that can be machined to incredibly tight tolerances. One of the big problems is that in reality, acrylic platters can only be machined at certain times of the year because humidity and temperature will affect the platter's "roundness" and tolerances.
Something like that! I think the last US retail list price I saw for the Forsell was $30,000, but I can't remember whether that was for the flywheel-equipped Air Force One, or "just" the Air Reference. Prior to that, one could order from Forsell Mediphon directly; I think the factory direct price was around $6,000 for the Air Reference.
Fortunately for me, I ordered my Forsell at about the same time they appointed a UK distributor so I paid only 10% more than the factory-direct price.
I think you actually understate the problem and machining acrylic platters to "tight" tolerances" is even harder than you represent Gary. It's driven some manufacturers, such as VPI, away (as well as good sources of acrylic for platters has dried up--the main supplier is now China and from what I've been told--is not very good) and into something like Al that can be machined to incredibly tight tolerances. One of the big problems is that in reality, acrylic platters can only be machined at certain times of the year because humidity and temperature will affect the platter's "roundness" and tolerances.
Myles, I absolutely know how difficult it is. I didn't want to make it sound more difficult than it is, but I also didn't want to understate the problem.
The Genesis Series 2 loudspeakers are machined out of solid cell-cast high molecular weight acrylic. Just the transport cost of getting the sheet of acrylic to my CNC guy costs more than a sheet of acrylic from China!! Dealers who don't understand keep complaining about the cost of my "plastic speakers".
But I persist in using acrylic because of the physical characteristics that I like. The two main suppliers of acrylic are now China and Mexico - and the quality is really bad. I can tell you about gummed up CNC machines and tolerance problems. I'm sure that one additional problem that makers of turntable platters have that I don't have is the variance in density across a sheet of acrylic.
Myles, I absolutely know how difficult it is. I didn't want to make it sound more difficult than it is, but I also didn't want to understate the problem.
The Genesis Series 2 loudspeakers are machined out of solid cell-cast high molecular weight acrylic. Just the transport cost of getting the sheet of acrylic to my CNC guy costs more than a sheet of acrylic from China!! Dealers who don't understand keep complaining about the cost of my "plastic speakers".
But I persist in using acrylic because of the physical characteristics that I like. The two main suppliers of acrylic are now China and Mexico - and the quality is really bad. I can tell you about gummed up CNC machines and tolerance problems. I'm sure that one additional problem that makers of turntable platters have that I don't have is the variance in density across a sheet of acrylic.
Three air bearings with separate pumps and surge tanks - flywheel, platter and tonearm. And it did not cost me six figures ...
