Technics brings back the SP10

[microstrip]

So a digital giant goes analog. To bad the damage is done.

What damage?

 

[Gregadd]

What damage?

At least a generation of music lost to digital.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Any thoughts on what sort of plinth, arm board and arm Technics might come up with as a final release all-in-one package?
Or would potential customers be better off customising plinth etc?

 

[microstrip]

At least a generation of music lost to digital.

Although I disagree with the nostalgic idea of your statement, I must remember that next audio generation will be listening to more than 95% of digital processed LPs.

Fortunately we are discovering that the digital music encoded since the 80's can sound much better than the average LP if we use the adequate playback system. If many great recordings recorded in tape were not transcribed to digital in due time they would be lost forever.

 

[FrantzM]

Although I disagree with the nostalgic idea of your statement, I must remember that next audio generation will be listening to more than 95% of digital processed LPs.

Fortunately we are discovering that the digital music encoded since the 80's can sound much better than the average LP if we use the adequate playback system. If many great recordings recorded in tape were not transcribed to digital in due time they would be lost forever.

+1

 

[Gregadd]

Although I disagree with the nostalgic idea of your statement, I must remember that next audio generation will be listening to more than 95% of digital processed LPs.
...Fortunately we are discovering music encoded since. The '80s

Fortunately we are discovering that the digital music encoded since the 80's can sound much better than the average LP if we use the adequate playback system. If many great recordings recorded in tape were not transcribed to digital in due time they would be lost forever.

Who is this "we" that is discovering digital is better than LP? It is no doubt those who always thought digital was better than lp.
As for preservation there is no reason for a properly stored audio tape to significantly degrade. If desperate an unplayed lp will last forever.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Excellent, a digital v analog spat on the pages of a tt thread.
For the record, I'm finally "getting" digital after three decades.
It's taken me heroic efforts on power grid, noise reduction and vibration isolation management, but now my digital, that was very good to begin with, has become superlative with the kind of midband tone density I've only ever heard off analog.
For me this is the stuff of epiphany, and it makes me even more curious and motivated to optimise my analog even more when I reinstall it soon, with a planned overspecced bespoke psu to phono, and SOTA passive isoln on Stacore platform.
Now if my digital retains the edge despite these changes to my analog, and esp w my tt having the edge over my cdp in my old space, then
1- I will become a bit of a convert to digital many years in, or
2- I will investigate some killer final tt upgrades, incl an idler rebuild, a ground up new design DD, this Technics reimagined high torque DD, and a v well respected belt drive.

 

[Gregadd]

I am not seeking any analog converts. Suit yourself. That Era ise gone forever. Ironically I at Best Buy last weekend and they had a tt playing background music.

 

[microstrip]

Who is this "we" that is discovering digital is better than LP? It is no doubt those who always thought digital was better than lp.
As for preservation there is no reason for a properly stored audio tape to significantly degrade. If desperate an unplayed lp will last forever.

You should read better the current threads on top digital in WBF ... And please note that my point was not on digital being better than LP, but than the average LP.

There are many reasons why a tape degrades and many papers on it. The typical lifetime of analog tapes has been debated in the professional forums - people feel very happy when a tape is still playable after 30-40 years, usually with high losses in the treble and sometimes only one last time.

 

[spiritofmusic]

No argument from me as to superiority of analog.
But my personal journey in digital has gone in to overdrive in last 6 months and esp last 6 wks.
I personally am never going to hold digital in contempt as I used to. It holds its head up, and in my system at least, in the hallowed analog ground of mids density.
Jump factor and palpability still slam dunk to vinyl. Maybe even more so on this new reimagined SP10.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You should read better the current threads on top digital in WBF ... And please note that my point was not on digital being better than LP, but than the average LP.

when you say 'average Lp' I assume you mean 'average LP playback system'? but maybe you mean average Lp pressing played back on any system? or maybe you mean average Lp pressing played back on the average Lp audiophile system?

these are all different meanings.

wanting to comment on your comment, but making sure I understand it first.

 

[microstrip]

when you say 'average Lp' I assume you mean 'average LP playback system'? but maybe you mean average Lp pressing played back on any system? or maybe you mean average Lp pressing played back on the average Lp audiophile system?

these are all different meanings.

wanting to comment on your comment, but making sure I understand it first.

I was addressing the average LP pressing - it was what the average consumer could get ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I was addressing the average LP pressing - it was what the average consumer could get ...

ok then, these days the average Lp 'consumers could get' is not remarkable. so many 'yech' pressings.....lowers the 'mean' for pressings.

however; if we were to narrow that to the average Lp 'from the analog era' then we are talking about something likely remarkable sounding on a competent Lp playback system.

I would absolutely agree that the best digital of today is as likely to sound great as the average Lp 'consumers could get'.......but not sure that reality has much value. if one can afford the very best digital, then one can acquire decent analog based good pressings and appropriate playback which then change this whole equation.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, you've heard some great DDs and idlers in your time.
Rockport Sirius, Kodo The Beat, Dobbins 301, and of course yr current NVS.
How do you think this reimagined SP-10R might fit into things?
The Technics hothouse team seem to be throwing the kitchen sink at this one.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, you've heard some great DDs and idlers in your time.
Rockport Sirius, Kodo The Beat, Dobbins 301, and of course yr current NVS.
How do you think this reimagined SP-10R might fit into things?
The Technics hothouse team seem to be throwing the kitchen sink at this one.

I also owned a Dobbins Plinthed SP-10 mK2 and a Dobbins Plinthed SP-10 Mk3.

the 2 exciting things about the SP-10R are (1) the history of the tt it's said to be replacing, and (2) the potential game changing presence of a large corporation that could choose to really throw investment at the product. my Dobbins SP-10 mK3 had the drive energy and steady speed, but not the low noise. tweakers are said to have improved the power supply of the original, as well as lowered the noise.

what is Technics using as the target sound? how much investigative work have they done to understand the current SOTA?

will it be very good, excellent, or a game changer?

I'd love for it to be a game changer at the top of the heap. but.........maybe what will be game changing is the availability of a little better than SP-10 Mk3 performance at a lower cost (than used SP-10 Mk3's now) in a brand new product. it could offer more people accessibility to great analog. and show the way for other larger companies that the format is worth investing in at the 'uber' level. right now we have Denon, Sony, and others making turntables, but far short of their best past efforts. how exciting if they went back and tried to better their previous best from the 'Golden Era'.

that would be truly game changing.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Mike, the big difference I can see is that the high torque motor is non cogging.
If this thing really keeps to +/-0.2s per side of lp and the motor avoids cogging/hunt and seek jitter, and throws enough money at it to make it a bulletproof viable proposition, and keep the price close to $10k, then it truly becomes one to beat.

 

[Gregadd]

You should read better the current threads on top digital in WBF ... And please note that my point was not on digital being better than LP, but than the average LP.

There are many reasons why a tape degrades and many papers on it. The typical lifetime of analog tapes has been debated in the professional forums - people feel very happy when a tape is still playable after 30-40 years, usually with high losses in the treble and sometimes only one last time.

I really don't care to argue digital v analog anymore.
The future is clearly a digital stream. Quality is trumped by other factors.

 

[cdk84]

Digititis

Although I disagree with the nostalgic idea of your statement, I must remember that next audio generation will be listening to more than 95% of digital processed LPs.

Fortunately we are discovering that the digital music encoded since the 80's can sound much better than the average LP if we use the adequate playback system. If many great recordings recorded in tape were not transcribed to digital in due time they would be lost forever.

It occurs to me to ask: upon what digital playback gear do you base your comparison with vinyl? and upon what vinyl playback hardware?

I look forward to your response.

 

[Christopher T]

Well Mike, the big difference I can see is that the high torque motor is non cogging. If this thing really keeps to +/-0.2s per side of lp and the motor avoids cogging/hunt and seek jitter, and throws enough money at it to make it a bulletproof viable proposition, and keep the price close to $10k, then it truly becomes one to beat.

Pointedly, in the case of the Technics Sp10Mk3, provided both the mechanical instrumentation and linear power supply has been properly serviced, tested and logic calibrated, the ongoing topic relating to dc motor “cogging” being present during operation unfortunately has been wildly exaggerated on forums. This has lead to unnecessary enthusiast controversy, rumors and subsequent confusion.

Engineering implementation and design integrity are key, this philosophy applies to virtually any turntable drive type.

As most WBF members are likely aware, the Matsushita Technics Sp10Mk3's quartz controlled, phase locked servo type 15 Pole brushless dc motor design, 10kg platter with adjoining linear power supply at its foundation, was derived from the company's powerful SP-02 record cutting lathe motor geometry and featured a mighty iron core 48 Pole dc motor & reported 30kgs - 60kgs field platter weight range est., which during the early 80’s found themselves commonly retro fit into existing industry standard Neuman lathes and Scully record cutting lathes. Based solely on the notion of "all iron core brushless dc motors cog" and therefore all "hunt and seek" plus "jitter", and are therefore "bad" this would by deductive logic indicate that the vast majority of our cherished audiophile LP's and record collections derived from master lacquers cut using direct drive iron core dc motor based lathes spanning over half a century must therefore be unlistenable rubbish....? I jest of course!

During past eras, industry leaders, namely the Matsushita Technics corporation, diligently worked by investing millions of dollars in engineering resources producing commercial based direct drive designs which minimized negative measurable effects inherently caused by iron core brushless dc motors (prevalent during this age) down to astonishingly low levels. As a result, the quantifiable bench measurements of the Technics Sp10Mk3 prove relevant and state-of-the-art even to this day. Even the most committed "golden ears" could never hear or detect any audible "cogging" during playback through a properly conceived Sp10Mk3, furthermore speed accuracy, pitch, and low noise floor remain nearly beyond reproach. The combination of the Mk3's heavy platter's flywheel effect ie. inertia, oversized precision hydrodynamic bearing, bulletproof brushless dc motor, magnet array and supporting drive electronics achieved consistently superior measured results.

With that being said, is there still room left for improvement today? The answer is yes, absolutely!

According to industry press releases, the upcoming Technics Sp10R direct drive (with coreless, brushless dc motor featuring “zero cogging” shares the virtually identical Technics SL1200 GAE/G motor and bearing architecture, only the Sp10R features a dual, two sided rotor drive system with primary coil windings on both sides, instead of a single coil array (*). Platter weight specifications indicate 7kg. (*) Speculated "S/N ratio of 92 dB and wow & flutter of 0.015%, as of August 30, 2017, according to a Technics survey." Alas, the 10R's power supply will be a switching type, but nonetheless "low noise" according to official press documents. My speculation is that supplying a proper linear type power supply would have proven not very cost effective for production. In any event, we will all have to wait and see just how the table performs comparatively speaking, once it finally becomes released.

Based solely on existing factory Technics SL1200 GAE/G motor specifications including photographs and currently published Sp10R data, press announcements strongly suggest the upcoming Technics Sp10R direct drive represents something much closer to a modern replacement for the Technics Sp10Mk2/Mk2a models opposed to the rarer Technics Sp10Mk3.

Comparisons below:

Technics SL-1200 GAE/G - (factory specifications) Motor Starting Torque - 3.3kg.-cm (2.8 lb.-in), Platter weight 3.5kg. ~ (7.7 lbs.), Rumble -78db (IEC 98A weighted), Wow and flutter: 0.025% WRMS (JIS C5521)

Technics Sp10R - (Note: (*) Torque est., based on upgraded GAE/G motor geometry) Motor Starting Torque - 6.6kg.-cm (5.6 lb.-in), (Published) Platter weight 7kg. ~ (15.4lbs.), Rumble (TBA), Wow and flutter: 0.015% WRMS (Officially TBA)

Technics Sp10Mk2A - (factory specifications) Motor Starting Torque - 6kg.-cm (5.2 lb.-in), Platter weight 2.9kg. ~ (6.4lbs.), Rumble -86dB (IEC 98A weighted), Wow and flutter: 0.02% WRMS (JIS C5521)

Technics Sp10Mk3 - (factory specifications) Motor Starting Torque - 16kg.-cm (13.8 lb.-in), Platter weight 10kg. ~ (22lbs.), Rumble -92dB DIN B (IEC 98A weighted), Wow and flutter: 0.015% WRMS (JIS C5521)

my Dobbins SP-10 mK3 had the drive energy and steady speed, but not the low noise. tweakers are said to have improved the power supply of the original, as well as lowered the noise.

Mike, I can tell you unpretentiously from years of direct hands on experience, if for any reason the Sp10Mk3 you were using in your system was not absolutely quiet during operation by way of noise floor, then clearly something was amiss, albeit likely easily rectifiable.

 

[audioguy]

I would suggest the very best analog on the very best equipment (IMO) is better than digital, but "on average", digital is way more than good enough for me, and as someone has already suggested, digital streaming is the future. And I, for one (given my experiences with Tidal), am ecstatic.

I have listened to more music in the last few months since I have had Tidal than in the previous year prior to Tidal and discovering all kinds of wonderful new music and new artists -- and re-discovering some old ones as well. I have also discovered how much crap is marketed as music - but that is a different thread !

That said, if I had the space and inclination, I would re-install a high end TT system. There is something very captivating about analog done well that most digital just doesn't do. But with several thousand CD's on my server and now Tidal, way too much music and way too little time to again go down the analog route. Someday, I would love to hear Mike L's system, as I am sure it sound fabulous.

Excuse me while I go listen to some new artists !!