The Absurdity of Some Recent Audio Reviews in Stereophile.

[Orb]

Orb:

I think the magazines have at least one other responsibilty. That is to try and protect the consumer from some fly by night operators-or the here today, gone tomorrow company--and unfortunately every area of business has them. Just ran into one myself through Audiogon last winter and almost lost my money. Another way of looking at the picture is that a good review for a small company might destroy them since they don't have the capability to meet demand or maintain quality (remember the BRB amplifier issue years ago in TAS?). Gone are the early days of high-end audio where the consumer was unfortunately the Beta tester. SP has some sort of protection built-in by requiring a company to have five dealers in order to get a review; I'm not sure what the other mag's policies are.

Totally agree and that is part of the safeguard, which the editor should take action on and be answerable again for.
And as you probably feel not all editors are equal, nor magazines or reviewers, which I agree with as well.
But then I would hope the better ones survive, and the judges I guess are industry insiders who I feel are justified in questioning/debating with what they feel is questionable from other publications (as long as it is done professionally) along with the reader base.
I assume most editors and journalists feel uncomfortable in debating what they feel questionable if it involves a competing publication?
Maybe this is a way forward in protecting the consumer.
It happens rarely IMO.

Cheers
Orb

 

[MylesBAstor]

This is not applicable to you Steve but when I see very hostile posts relating to audio magazines in many cases the justification given by the poster is that the manufacturers pay (bribe is their suggestion) magazine via ads.
But you know I have never seen anyone ask what I feel is a better question and shows possibly a more thorough analysis with;
Do the large dealers and distributors who take out an annual full page advert pay less than a manufacturer?Cheers
Orb

Not when I had my magazine (or web sites that I know) nor do I think any high-end magazine does. What determines the final ad price is the number of ad insertions. Kinda like how personal training sessions are priced at the gym. The more you buy, the larger the discount. Of course, with the "bigger" mags, there may come some sort of circ guarantee (and we know that SP is the only high-end magazine that has their circ audited; it's costly but one can't lie about their circ eg. giving away free issue and counting them as paid circ or checking the mag's sell thru); if the issue doesn't achieve that number, then the buyer pays less.

Now of course, a dealer can "co-op" and ad (like they might do at an audio show) and have all the dealers who have equipment featured in the ad chip in and pay a share of the cost of the advertisement.

And of course full page ads go into the magazine before 1/2 pg, 1/2 before 1/2 or 1/4 etc; 4/C goes before B/W but that has a lot to do with how many color signatures are in the magazine. SP is all 4/C and that is costly; smaller mags will try and cut costs by only running 4/C signatures that are covered by ad costs; after that, the ads/reviews are in B/W.

 

[Orb]

Not when I had my magazine (or web sites that I know) nor do I think any high-end magazine does. What determines the final ad price is the number of ad insertions. Kinda like how personal training sessions are priced at the gym. The more you buy, the larger the discount. Of course, with the "bigger" mags, there may come some sort of circ guarantee (and we know that SP is the only high-end magazine that has their circ audited; it's costly but one can't lie about their circ eg. giving away free issue and counting them as paid circ or checking the mag's sell thru); if the issue doesn't achieve that number, then the buyer pays less.

Now of course, a dealer can "co-op" and ad (like they might do at an audio show) and have all the dealers who have equipment featured in the ad chip in and pay a share of the cost of the advertisement.

And of course full page ads go into the magazine before 1/2 pg, 1/2 before 1/2 or 1/4 etc; 4/C goes before B/W but that has a lot to do with how many color signatures are in the magazine. SP is all 4/C and that is costly; smaller mags will try and cut costs by only running 4/C signatures that are covered by ad costs; after that, the ads/reviews are in B/W.

That was what I thought but it is worth asking as it is a factor in the debate whether manufacturers bribe with ads when it should be considered there are dealers and distributors who take comparable size ads for same duration, and as I mentioned it may be surprising but there dealers and distributors who take a full page spread and even a double page, but maybe that is more of a trend of the UK/Europe publication world.
And I have been curious about this for awhile so I pay attention to what are the ads, from what I remember the only co-op I noticed for UK publications was a dual page ad and this has been running for awhile and possibly in multiple publications.

Thanks for replying.
Orb

 

[MylesBAstor]

That was what I thought but it is worth asking as it is a factor in the debate whether manufacturers bribe with ads when it should be considered there are dealers and distributors who take comparable size ads for same duration, and as I mentioned it may be surprising but there dealers and distributors who take a full page spread and even a double page, but maybe that is more of a trend of the UK/Europe publication world.
And I have been curious about this for awhile so I pay attention to what are the ads, from what I remember the only co-op I noticed for UK publications was a dual page ad and this has been running for awhile and possibly in multiple publications.

Thanks for replying.
Orb

Now outside of the inner two and back cover (the three most lucrative ad positions in any mag-and of course the back being the most expensive), some mags will allow an advertiser to pay a premium for ad placement eg. where in the mag the ad appears and whether it's a left or right hand page. Obviously, one would like their ad closer to the front and on a right hand page.

 

[Stereoeditor]

Hi John,

I have been a fan of yours, Michael Fremer and Gerard Resjkind for some time, and I was wondering how you deal with or address your reviews that are reviewed/concluded differently in other magazines? If you give Amp -X a wonderful review, but Gerard is lukewarm or indifferent about it...how does that impact you...or does it?

While there are writers at other magazines I read and enjoy, the opinion to which I give most credence is my own. And to be honest, I see much more consensus among reviewers than disagreement. And where there is disagreement, you often find that the underlying descriptions are very similar but the reviewers disagree on the value judgment. For example, reviewers A & B both describe a speaker as having an elevated mid-bass. Reviewer A recommends the speaker highly because of its powerful lows that add "authority" to symphonic recordings; Reviewer B doesn't recommend the speaker because there is a lack of pace and definition in the lows that makes acoustic jazz sound too ponderous.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

 

[Stereoeditor]

The way I read what you wrote in September, it seemed to me that even adding the extra series resistor left a peak of 2 to 3 dB in the mid-high frequency range around 3 kHz . Did you find a way around that problem in later experimentation with other resistors or amps? Thanks.

No, but the residual mid-treble energy didn't seem very audible, for some reason. But the better solution, as you can read in the October issue, was to use the Audio Research amplifier, which, with its high output impedance, fattened up the speaker's lows to better balance the exaggerated top-octave on-axis.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

 

[Stereoeditor]

OOPS! My face is red. I did not read the review. I was referring to the general policy.

No problem.

Let me also take this opportunity to thank you for making Stereophile the easiest stereo magazine to research online. Just about everything you say is instantaneously verifiable online.

Thank you. Stereophile's website archives are very much a labor of love for me. I have posted 4 reviews and features every week for the past 11 years and the plan is eventually to have everything that has ever been published in the magazine available free on-line. BTW, we are about to move to a new Content Management System that will allow people to add their own comments to our reviews, a much-requested function.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

 

[Orb]

...... Let me also take this opportunity to thank you for making Stereophile the easiest stereo magazine to research online. Just about everything you say is instantaneously verifiable online.

Gregadd,
you probably follow measurements from Soundstage and others, but just in case you did not know Paul Miller publishes every test they do for Hifi News publication, and for me as important as SP.
Like SP, there are manufacturers who do not necessarily agree with all the test setups he does, but it is great for the level of detail.
You will need to register but that is it, and you will be sent userid and password.

As an example of a preamp (excluding phono) tests include; Check continuity, Gain, Sensitivity for V output, High resolution distortion spectrum 1kHz, High resolution distortion spectrum 20kHz, Distortion vs FR, Distortion vs output level, Distortion vs input level, Signal level, FR response at dB gain, Output impedance vs FR, Channel balance vs FR, Channel seperation vs FR, Signal to noise ratio, Residual noise, DC offset.

As you can see plenty of data to mull over relating to the products they have reviewed and goes back to 2005 test reports.

Link is:
http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/index.html

Hope some find this useful
Cheers
Orb

 

[Gregadd]

I don't know if these count as Industry Announcements per se. This thread will eventually die and may not be of interest to everyone. I suggest Orb and John go there and provide a link for thier archives. That way anyone can access it.

 

[Orb]

Here is a snapshot of this months advertising in four UK publications, I appreciate this does not show the whole picture as ideally you would want to tag each manufacturer and advert over the whole year along with parameters such as position in magazine.

Anyway here is the ad snapshot for full and double page spreads excluding the specific dealer zone section:
Mag1.
Manufacturers - 17 that includes in the count inside back page, Outside back page
Distributors - 7 that includes in the count inside front page
Dealers - 5 and also 6 co-op

Mag2.
Manufacturers - 10 that includes in the count outside back page
Distributors - 8 that includes in the count inside front page, Inside back page
Dealers - 6 and also 3 co-op and 2 double page

Mag3.
Manufacturers - 11 and also 2 co-op, that includes in the count outside back page
Distributors - 4 and also 1 co-op , that includes in the count inside front page, Inside back page
Dealers - 5 and also 4 co-op and 1 double page

Mag4.
Manufacturers - 16 ,that includes in the count Inside front page
Distributors - 7 and also 2 co-op, that includes in the count inside back page, Outside back page
Dealers - 10 and also 4 co-op and 6 double page (includes 1 true double page co-op)


Some further points.
1. Some manufacturers have multiple adverts spread throughout a magazine and each has been applied as an individual count, some may and have a point commenting that these should be highlighted as its possible these manufactures have more financial sway due to several page adverts.
To clarify though this is a rare occurrence, and depending upon the publication is also done by distributors.
2. Most co-ops are individual adverts that are half or 3rd page spread shared by like distributor/dealer/manufacturer and not necessarily an actual co-op linked business model for advertising.
I felt it would be too much info to show these individually.
3. Magazine 4 I feel is the benchmark magazine of the UK comparable to SP in terms of structure (testing,editor respect in industry - hope other editors do not feel I am dismissing them as I am not,articles - excluding reviews that are more subjective) and interestingly has the most ads in general including the expensive double page.

And if there are any queries thats fine as long as you do not expect me to go through the magazines again

Cheers
Orb

 

[Gregadd]

It's a good point. The justification is that there is already a resistive pad in series with the tweeter amplifier. I felt, therefore that adding another series resistor - which doesn't involve any physical modification of the speaker itself - doesn't alter the speaker's design other than by extending the attenuation range of the existing pad.

I assume you read the actual review rather than going by the misleading paraphrase posted in this thread? In which case, you will note that I both auditioned and measured the speaker to reach my review conclusions with it as set up by the distributor. The experiment with the series resistor in the tweeter feed was mentioned only in the "measurements" sidebar, on p.76 of the September issue, though I did return to the subject and conduct further measurements on why the speaker sounded better balanced with the tubed Audio Research amp rather than the solid-state Classe in the October issue (p.165).

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

emphasis supplied by responder

I finished my homework assignment in part. I don't think my October issue has arrived. It's the recommended components issue and I would have remembered. I think. I see no reason to amend my earlier comments.

John- more important is your comments on the speakers dynamics. I like horns but thought the lack of dynamics is thier Achilles heel. You find them to excel in that area in an absolute sense and not merely compared to other horns.

 

[DonH50]

Mine arrived yesterday, so should be soon... Yes, it is the recommended components issue. I read JA's follow-up but nothing else. I get scared off by the prices...

I appreciate having the technical stuff to back up the listening, and the fact that JA takes time to follow up. I have no particular problems with tweaks that significantly help as long as its something we (or a dealer) can readily do, or something the manufacturer will incorporate in subsequent production runs. (I was recently involved in a similar situation, where a minor amp tweak that required a little technical competence to incorporate helped significantly, and is being incorporated into all the amps going forward. I was proud to help perform the tweak and help out the designer.)

Off Topic: I just found a pile of Stereophiles from the 80's and 90's. Fascinating reading through the old stuff and seeing what has survived through today.

 

[Stereoeditor]

I see no reason to amend my earlier comments.

Okay.

John- more important is your comments on the speakers dynamics. I like horns but thought the lack of dynamics is their Achilles heel. You find them to excel in that area in an absolute sense and not merely compared to other horns.

As I pointed out in the review, horns can have excellent "jump factor," as J. Gordon Holt called it. But with some exceptions - the JBL K2 9800 and L1400 Array, the Klipsch P39F - the horn speakers I have heard prior to living with the Acapellas have been too colored for me to appreciate that jump factor. The Acapella was sufficiently neutral that I could value its excellent dynamics compared with direct-radiating designs.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

 

[FrantzM]

I like horns but thought the lack of dynamics is thier Achilles heel

A rather unique observation, If there is one thing horns excel at , it is dynamics...

 

[Gregadd]

A rather unique observation, If there is one thing horns excel at , it is dynamics...

"My bad." I was referring to dynamic contrasts not playing loud. I think John Atkinson got the point. Here is the quote from the review: P.81 September issue:

...that is not what impressed me about its dynamics. It was at normal listening volumes, the differences between recorded levels seemed a little quieter compared with moderately loud ones, yet without becoming obscured. Loud sounds sounded louder compared with quieter ones, almost as if the recordings dynamic range was being increased a little...

Or microdynamics

 

[FrantzM]

Gregadd

Horns excel also in dynamic shading at least good horns. That is one of their forte, ask those who are into horns in this forum could attest to you .. Not playing loud only ... There again your observation may be very unique.

I will not hold the thread to that, you are entitled to your opinion

 

[Gregadd]

IME-Klipschourns, Avantgardes, Acapella, numrous hoemade designs were very dynamic but microdynamics were not the ithier strong suit. I think the fact that John took the time to point out how well the Acapellas performed in that area suggested that it deiviated from his usual results. He can correct me if I'm wrong. The fact that you and others were able to achieve different results IMO emphasizes the neeed to listen and experiment with differnt combinations and share our expeirnce with others. Finally thanks for being tolerant of my opinions. I wish others would adopt your attitude.


Quote without comment:

Lawyer: Judge with all due respect...
Judge: Counselor, whenever a lawyer says that I always wonder, Just how much respect is due?

 

[Robh3606]

IME-Klipschourns, Avantgardes, Acapella, numrous hoemade designs were very dynamic but microdynamics were not the ithier strong suit.

Hello Gregadd

If you ever get a change try to audition either the JBL 9800 or the Sythesis 1400 Array. In both cases they use a damped Berylium or Aluminum diaphram in the midrange compression drivers. That dampening helps to improving the microdynamics you are discussing. Do a search for Aquaplass and it should show up. If you measure these drivers the differences you see are in the ETC curve where the coated diaphrams measure better about 10db lower. You will not see it in the F/R curves.

Rob

 

[Gregadd]

Did I mention I really like horns? The only real horn dealer we have in our area is DeJaVu, McLean, Va. Consistent with thier name they are heavy into horns and SETs. There was also an abundance of "home made" horns at the Capitol Audiofest. I don't think I ran across those models, but I'll keep an eye out. There is also a possibility they were underpowered. Just because you can get by with two watts does not mean you are supposed to.

 

[andy_c]

Yes. As I wrote in the review, "at low frequencies, the Vitus incorporates the IEC infrasonic rolloff, reaching -3dB at 13Hz."

(...)

As I said, you are misreading the graph. The IEC modification of the RIAA curve is a legitimate design choice and does not represent a departure from accuracy per se.

You claim this preamp implements the IEC rolloff, yet also admit the -3 dB point is 13 Hz. It's quite well known that the IEC amendment does not specify a -3 dB frequency of 13 Hz, but 20 Hz. See Keith Howard's article here. Seems a bit odd that a $60,000 phono preamp could miss the IEC time constant by 35 percent doesn't it?

Per Keith's article, there's a pretty good consensus that the IEC amendment shouldn't be followed in the first place, so in that sense, being -3 dB at 13 Hz is better than -3 dB at 20 Hz as the IEC amendment specifies I suppose.

But I think the claim of this preamp implementing the IEC rolloff is bogus, just an excuse for an absurdly priced component that doesn't measure well, likely due to a coupling cap somewhere that's too small. The numbers don't add up to a true implementation of the IEC rolloff. If it were such an implementation, it would be -3 dB at 20 Hz within a tenth of a dB or so.