The argument for/against room treatment

PeterA

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Do you have any power regeneration in your system? I use it for my sources and I find it helps a lot...depends on your location probably and power stabilty but I have found it to be mostly a big plus.

HI Brad, No I do not. I lived for a while with an EquiTech unit and more recently with a Transparent Audio distribution box. Both are now gone. I've had friends who have tried or are using the Shunyata stuff. Some swear by it, others got rid of it. It certainly has an effect on the sound.
 
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Ron Resnick

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microstrip

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Stehno, which recording of Firebird is that? It sounds rather different from my recording in terms of performance and emphasis of certain instruments.

I agree with your point that clean power, speaker and listening position, and low system noise level can go a long way to achieving great sound without the need for audiophile acoustic room treatments. When all this is working together, when can surely listen at a more realistic volume.
Again, I would love to have a technical definition of what means "clean power" . Particularly as one source of noise is own system!

Ideal mains is a pure sinusoidal wave of constant amplitude and zero output impedance, nothing added! However some people seem to prefer their uncontrolled noisy and distorted mains supply.
 
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PeterA

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Again, I would love to have a technical definition of what means "clean power" . Particularly as one source of noise is own system!

Ideal mains is a pure sinusoidal wave of constant amplitude and zero output impedance, nothing added! However some people seem to prefer their uncontrolled noisy and distorted mains supply.

Sorry Fransisco, I can not define the term to your satisfaction. To me it simply means not being able to identify artifacts added or removed by such devices from the presentation of the music affecting my perception of the sound. I do not have the technical background to more precisely define it for you in technical terms.

I am talking about the power reaching the components. I am now embarking on an experiment to compare my JPS wiring to standard industrial 10 gauge three conductor wire.

I did a similar experiment with outlets and decided to discard my Furutech IEC connectors with standard industrial grade isolated ground receptacles and inexpensive Chinese industrial grade power cords. I don’t know if this is cleaner power, but it certainly sounded better: Fewer artifacts, more natural sound.

People have suggested that I "like" noise. Perhaps that is the case. Does it really matter to anyone else, LOL? Or, perhaps the aftermarket power devices I used in my system and heard in friend's systems simply added or removed something that I found unpleasant sounding and distracting from the natural presentation of the music. If the devices remove information while enhancing something else, I tend to not prefer it. I don't know the answer, and frankly don't really care. Others seem better at trying to understand and grasp how to achieve better sound that pleases them.
 
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Lagonda

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Again, I would love to have a technical definition of what means "clean power" . Particularly as one source of noise is own system!

Ideal mains is a pure sinusoidal wave of constant amplitude and zero output impedance, nothing added! However some people seem to prefer their uncontrolled noisy and distorted mains supply.
Some people live in areas with relative clean stable power, listening hours with low electrical traffic and prefer the higher capacity of the mains :) The skill of your equipment designer also has some influence. All this is of course unimportant if you like that dirty digital equipment and its self noise on your power line.;)
 

nirodha

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Again, I would love to have a technical definition of what means "clean power" . Particularly as one source of noise is own system!

Ideal mains is a pure sinusoidal wave of constant amplitude and zero output impedance, nothing added! However some people seem to prefer their uncontrolled noisy and distorted mains supply.
Clean power... for some clean power means less aggressive highs. For some less aggressive highs means too much filtering of the truth :p. Whatever, I just adore my Furutech pure power 6E NCF :)
 

morricab

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Again, I would love to have a technical definition of what means "clean power" . Particularly as one source of noise is own system!

Ideal mains is a pure sinusoidal wave of constant amplitude and zero output impedance, nothing added! However some people seem to prefer their uncontrolled noisy and distorted mains supply.
What do you use?
 

Robh3606

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This has nothing to do with overly sensitive ears but with human physiology.

I listen quite loudly too, but I follow NIOSH recommendations. I often go to the edge, but not beyond:


(The values in that NIOSH chart for dBa translate to numbers approximately 5 higher for dB, e.g., 95 dBA is about 100 dB.)

If continuing at your listening levels you want to be deaf in 10 or 20 years, go ahead. But don't tell us you were not warned.

You can pose as a tough guy, but you can't beat your own human physiology. You can't will away the physical limitations of human nature, which are yours as well.
Yes always a good idea. Do lots of live shows in small venues and always use ear protection. I am also careful at home as well. Makes no sense to risk permanent hearing damage when it can so easily be avoided!

Rob :)
 

wil

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I wonder. Might it be that you guys continue to derail this thread because you're still unable to connect the dots? OSHA regulations, acoustic panels, first reflections, earplugs when listening to music, crosstalk, low-volume levels, low-level dynamics, etc, etc. Are these really the things performance-oriented high-end audio types consider in the pursuit of excellence and striving toward the absolute sound?

BTW, as you continue to derail the topic of this thread, do you guys realize your thinking and strategies are flawed even defying logic? For example. Are you aware that the closer your listening volumes get toward elevator music volume levels, the less beneficial your acoustic treatments?

Below is yet another in-room video in a room with no acoustic treatments and yet you are still seemingly unable to discern what you're hearing. Not only that, it does not seem to register with you that your lower-volume systems supported by acoustic treatments are incapable of generating perhaps anything close to this same level of musicality at higher volumes and no acoustic treatments.

How is it that you guys are still unable to connect the dots? It's not rocket science. I'll ask once again. Is it at all possible that your acoustic treatments do little more than make an otherwise intolerable playback system a bit more tolerable / less fatiguing? Is that really what you call more musical?

The topic is arguments for/against room acoustic treatments. Surely you derailers have smartphones. Capture an in-room listening session and demonstrate for the rest of us what your acoustic treatments do to improve your playback systems' level of musicality.


Behold. Higher listening volumes with no acoustic treatments and no custom room. Just sufficient speaker positioning, subwoofer tuning, and a greatly lowered playback system noise floor. It doesn't get much simpler than that and yet you are still unable to connect the dots?
Actually, I think listening levels are pertinent to the discussion as far as having some reference level for relating to other's experience. One person's "elevator music" is another's rich musical experience (in my case typically 75-95 db). The variables can include system dynamics and well as individual hearing health/acuity. You're posting videos with "98-102 db." That's a narrow dynamic range that I don't hear on my system, even on compressed recordings, so that's why I was curious for clarification on your listening levels. Fine with me to drop it!
 

MadFloyd

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Do you have any power regeneration in your system? I use it for my sources and I find it helps a lot...depends on your location probably and power stabilty but I have found it to be mostly a big plus.
What do you use and what are your sources, Brad?
 

morricab

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What do you use and what are your sources, Brad?
I use a Monarchy Audio power regenerator. It is only 100 watts, so suitable only for sources...not amps. My source is an Aries Cerat Kassandra II ref DAC or a Silvaweld SWH 650 phonostsge. I also drive my TT from it. My streamer runs off a 50,000mAh battery pack. Power cables are NBS Omega Extreme I and II.
 
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Robh3606

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Do you have any power regeneration in your system? I use it for my sources and I find it helps a lot...depends on your location probably and power stabilty but I have found it to be mostly a big plus.

I don't seem to have an issue with my power at all. The issue I see with regeneration is it limits power draw compared to directly from the source.
 
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microstrip

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What do you use?
Currently nothing, my house mains is very stable - residential zone of low density population, 50 meters away from the street mains distribution transformer. But I have used with success the PSAudio P10 for some time.
 

Tim Link

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Replying in general to stenho's posts let me try to paraphrase what I'm reading and stenho can correct me as necessary - he's saying that if the playback system is good enough, any reasonable room with a decent mix of soft furniture and typical home furnishing items will provide an excellent listening experience so there'd be nothing important to be gained from trying to make the room better with exotic treatments such as bass traps or other specialized devices. Did I get that right? I have listened to a bunch of those videos and it does sound to me like things are working pretty well in that room with those speakers. I do hear a consistent room sound from those recordings, the typical effect that you hear more on the recording than you do when you're actually listening there in real life. I'm convinced that he's got a great sounding setup there.

I know from my experience that you can get an extremely enjoyable experience from a good playback system without specialized room treatments. But I'll disagree that there's nothing more to be gained from engineered room treatments. If it doesn't matter to you, then that's perfectly fine. We each have our threshold of what's good enough to get us into the musical mental state we are seeking. I'll confess that I currently don't have any specialized room treatments. I've experimented with them a little and heard the improvements but right now I don't have the means or space to keep them in place. Like stenho, I have big speakers which solve some of the problems and I'm getting a pleasing experience.

Working in the acoustics area I have many experiences with people who are very happy with their excellent systems but who then try some acoustics and find that it really makes a profound improvement. Residential rooms really do tend to have certain problems and those can really be addressed with bass traps! Some, like me, know they work but don't have them yet for various practical reasons. Almost never do I get feedback that there's no meaningful improvement.
 
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microstrip

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Some people live in areas with relative clean stable power, listening hours with low electrical traffic and prefer the higher capacity of the mains :) The skill of your equipment designer also has some influence. All this is of course unimportant if you like that dirty digital equipment and its self noise on your power line.;)

Well if "clean" is ambiguous, relative clean is not better :)

For me the problem with such ambiguous statements is that they only fuel audiophile myths.
Sometimes analog equipments create more self noise than digital equipment, digital designers usually think about it, analogue designers forget it ...
 
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Lagonda

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Well if "clean" is ambiguous, relative clean is not better :)

For me the problem with such ambiguous statements is that they only fuel audiophile myths.
Sometimes analog equipments create more self noise than digital equipment, digital designers usually think about it, analogue designers forget it ...
Why are you currently not using a regenerator Francisco ?
 

morricab

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I don't seem to have an issue with my power at all. The issue I see with regeneration is it limits power draw compared to directly from the source.
For a Class A source that draws only about 20 watts there is no limiting.
 

microstrip

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I don't seem to have an issue with my power at all. The issue I see with regeneration is it limits power draw compared to directly from the source.

Only exceptionally or with poor quality / underpowered regenerators. Most of us do not have kilowatt Krell's!

People should get an AC voltmeter and measure the difference in their mains voltage when they switch a 5A load on and off. Many will be horrified with the result. ;)
 
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microstrip

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Why are you currently not using a regenerator Francisco ?
Simply because I found I do not need it. No significant improvement in sound quality with it and the P10 cost was around 6000 euros.

Some people love solar electricity and forget the inverters are just regenerators .:oops:
 

Lagonda

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Simply because I found I do not need it. No significant improvement in sound quality with it and the P10 cost was around 6000 euros.

Some people love solar electricity and forget the inverters are just regenerators .:oops:
Aha we actually agree, sorry i know you like a good discussion ;)
 
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