The argument for/against room treatment
- Thread starter MadFloyd
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LOL. Don't they say the good Lord works in mysterious ways, Wil? I take it you’re one of those with overly-sensitive ears? Sorry to hear if that’s true. If I had to listen at the low listening volume levels as some do, I would have chucked this hobby decades ago and taken up whittling or maybe glass-blowing. I’m not a lover of music like some but I do love music. More importantly I love what a playback system can potentially do to preserve what's actually embedded in a recording. In contrast I suppose to others who love what their acoustic panels do to make recordings sound more pleasing (less fatiguing).
Regardless, how some can listen to what could and should be exhilarating pieces at perhaps half the volume of a live performance is beyond me. To me, that's like a Forumula 1 driver running a race at half speed and of course coming in dead last but the driver is smiling cuz he didn't crash.
Then again, I’ve heard it said more than once that hearing damage is not just decibels alone but often times it’s the increased distortions associated with the higher volumes. If that's the case, I'm thinking I'm good and maybe it's the ones who NEED acoustic panels that you should be preaching to?
Moreover, there are very few if any playback systems worth listening to at higher volume levels since distortions increase with the music when volume is increased. But for me it's just another of the many benefits of a much lowered noise floor when loud and clean playback music can be quite pleasant. Even poorly-engineered recordings like the one below.BTW, of course you couldn't listen to your playback system at these volume levels. Your playback system with its much raised noise floor would probably have you running for the exit within 30 seconds with maybe one or both ears bleeding. Besides, it seems a bit presumptuous of you to equate what you experience in your room with what I experience in my room. For example. I don't recall even once reading about your experiences resulting from any attempts you've made to drastically reduce your system's noise floor. If you had, I'm sure I would have remembered. Nevertheless, that implies to me that you're potentially comparing apples (your system) to oranges (my system) and presuming similar results - based only on your experiences with what you're familar with.
But in all seriousness, this is now your 3rd or 4th time reaching out to me about this topic. Please don't preach to me again about listening levels.
Back on topic. These first reflections are really harshing my buzz.
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I have found with my very high and sloped ceilings that no treatment is really needed as well.
This has nothing to do with overly sensitive ears but with human physiology.
I listen quite loudly too, but I follow NIOSH recommendations. I often go to the edge, but not beyond:
DECIBEL (LOUDNESS) COMPARISON CHART | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio
A look at decibel levels of everyday sounds.
(The values in that NIOSH chart for dBa translate to numbers approximately 5 higher for dB, e.g., 95 dBA is about 100 dB.)
If continuing at your listening levels you want to be deaf in 10 or 20 years, go ahead. But don't tell us you were not warned.
You can pose as a tough guy, but you can't beat your own human physiology. You can't will away the physical limitations of human nature, which are yours as well.
In the frequency range 150hz to 20khz, furniture in the room is usually sufficient a couch, record shelf and carpet...etc
In my Room the reverberation time is 0.4-0.45ms sounds energetically more realistic
In the bass 150hz to 20hz it is better to fight the individual room modes than to dampen the whole range.
Have the room measured acoustically, then you can see individual room modes.
then you can have a plate absorber or helmet wood resonator built here. which swallows the room mode at the exact frequency.
In my opinion the better way. the bass sounds much better with this way
In my Room the reverberation time is 0.4-0.45ms sounds energetically more realistic
In the bass 150hz to 20hz it is better to fight the individual room modes than to dampen the whole range.
Have the room measured acoustically, then you can see individual room modes.
then you can have a plate absorber or helmet wood resonator built here. which swallows the room mode at the exact frequency.
In my opinion the better way. the bass sounds much better with this way
One reason I've brought it up a couple of times is that your noted db levels don't make sense to me and I don't believe you've answered the direct question. Sorry if I've missed it.LOL. Don't they say the good Lord works in mysterious ways, Wil? I take it you’re one of those with overly-sensitive ears? Sorry to hear if that’s true. If I had to listen at the low listening volume levels as some do, I would have chucked this hobby decades ago and taken up whittling or maybe glass-blowing. I’m not a lover of music like some but I do love music. More importantly I love what a playback system can potentially do to preserve what's actually embedded in a recording. In contrast I suppose to others who love what their acoustic panels do to make recordings sound more pleasing (less fatiguing).
Regardless, how some can listen to what could and should be exhilarating pieces at perhaps half the volume of a live performance is beyond me. To me, that's like a Forumula 1 driver running a race at half speed and of course coming in dead last but the driver is smiling cuz he didn't crash.
Then again, I’ve heard it said more than once that hearing damage is not just decibels alone but often times it’s the increased distortions associated with the higher volumes. If that's the case, I'm thinking I'm good and maybe it's the ones who NEED acoustic panels that you should be preaching to?
BTW, of course you couldn't listen to your playback system at these volume levels. Your playback system with its much raised noise floor would probably have you running for the exit within 30 seconds with maybe one or both ears bleeding. Besides, it seems a bit presumptuous of you to equate what you experience in your room with what I experience in my room. For example. I don't recall even once reading about your experiences resulting from any attempts you've made to drastically reduce your system's noise floor. If you had, I'm sure I would have remembered. Nevertheless, that implies to me that you're potentially comparing apples (your system) to oranges (my system) and presuming similar results - based only on your experiences with what you're familar with.
But in all seriousness, this is now your 3rd or 4th time reaching out to me about this topic. Please don't preach to me again about listening levels.
Back on topic. These first reflections are really harshing my buzz.
Allow me to try again: When you say "98 to 102 db" what does that mean? 98 to 102 average or peak? When I listen to music there's usually a 10 to 20 point range between average to peak. So if you're average is 100 db, then your peaks might be 115 and up. Are you listening to music in a small room that's peaking at 115-120 db?
I typically listen with average levels at 75 to 80 db with peaks into the mid 90's. That sounds plenty life-life to me! My ears are not over-sensitive and I aim to keep them healthy. I've never heard of anyone listening to recorded music regularly in a small room at 100-120 levels, hence my stubborn curiosity...
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Are you asking me how I EQ the headphones? I'm using AudioHijack on my Mac to access the the Audio Units built in to Mac OS to provide parametric EQ. To get the curves I'm using testing done by others as I don't have means of measuring headphones. Right now I've got Grado SR325e and they have a pretty strong spike around 10k according to Innerfidelity; https://www.stereophile.com/images/ifmeasure/GradoSR325e.pdf EQing that 10k and a bit at 2k down sounds better to me and makes the headphones more enjoyable.
I thought I would also add that. as someone with "sensitive" hearing, and not suffering from hearing loss, lower volume (65 db avg for instance) music is just as satisfying as music at hair-curling levels. I believe the key is having a system with good dynamics at lower levels. Definitely not "elevator music. YMMV.
My system is very dynamic at lower levels, which makes for great night listening -- just like probably yours, my speakers don't need a certain volume to "wake up". However, I still prefer relatively loud, something closer to concert levels. For string quartets that is often higher than in a regular concert hall, more like close up in a small venue, such as in 'house concerts' that I have attended.
Yet never as loud as to exceed NIOSH recommended levels. I may indulge in constantly loud music, such as rock, for shorter periods, but I try to avoid this on long listening days since then exposure accumulates.
Folliwing very rare days where, due to circumstances, my exposure to loud sounds has been excessive, I give my ears a rest the next day in order to allow them to recover. One day of no music is nothing compared to hopefully years of still healthy hearing in front of me.
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I agree, I want good performance at all SPLs. SET + very efficient low-mass speakers work really well at low levels, both amp and speaker drivers are suitable. On my speaker it was tricky to get high SPLs sounding the same as low to moderate volumes with my super light midrange driver, but this is as important to me as low volume performance. I can't stand hearing distortion increase with SPLs!
Yup, giving the ears rest is important, and I also strongly feel like the lower the distortion the easier it is on the ears. For example, clean, undistorted music at high levels vs a chainsaw operating nearby, both at the same SPL... I think your ears can handle the music for much longer without issue.
I'm pretty happy with my horns, my speaker uses a 330 Hz LeCleach horn from 400-15,000 Hz, so you can listen relatively nearfield, and you can space the speakers pretty wide with lots of toe-in without losing a clear center image. This gives you a lot of the advantages I hear with crosstalk cancellation and can produce a room-filling, immersive 3-D soundstage.
What's interesting with crosstalk cancellation is you can do it with narrow speaker spacing too! So for the ability to project images outside the boundaries of the speakers, it's impossible to beat. I feel my horns are pretty room-friendly but the Polks have a massive advantage and that matters a lot if your setup is really limited. I think the Polk's idea is good, execution is not exactly YG or Wilson-level though, lol.
This is probably why some have observed that horn users listen louder. The horn system is going to be lower in distortion than a typical speaker at a given volume and distortion is one of the main indicators that it is getting too loud. Without the indicators people tend to turn it up to more lifelike levels.
I've never got to hear a LeCleach horn. Nobody makes a cheap plastic one that I can buy and experiment with, as far as I know. What do you use to drive that horn down to 400 Hz? Like you, I've got the speakers set wide with a lot of toe-in and I get a good sound stage across the front of the room with a solid center image. Currently I don't get any of the ultra wide 180 degree effects but that doesn't happen for me on most recordings anyway.
This has nothing to do with overly sensitive ears but with human physiology.
I listen quite loudly too, but I follow NIOSH recommendations. I often go to the edge, but not beyond:
DECIBEL (LOUDNESS) COMPARISON CHART | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio
A look at decibel levels of everyday sounds.www.gcaudio.com
(The values in that NIOSH chart for dBa translate to numbers approximately 5 higher for dB, e.g., 95 dBA is about 100 dB.)
If continuing at your listening levels you want to be deaf in 10 or 20 years, go ahead. But don't tell us you were not warned.
You can pose as a tough guy, but you can't beat your own human physiology. You can't will away the physical limitations of human nature, which are yours as well.
I wonder. Might it be that you guys continue to derail this thread because you're still unable to connect the dots? OSHA regulations, acoustic panels, first reflections, earplugs when listening to music, crosstalk, low-volume levels, low-level dynamics, etc, etc. Are these really the things performance-oriented high-end audio types consider in the pursuit of excellence and striving toward the absolute sound?
BTW, as you continue to derail the topic of this thread, do you guys realize your thinking and strategies are flawed even defying logic? For example. Are you aware that the closer your listening volumes get toward elevator music volume levels, the less beneficial your acoustic treatments?
Below is yet another in-room video in a room with no acoustic treatments and yet you are still seemingly unable to discern what you're hearing. Not only that, it does not seem to register with you that your lower-volume systems supported by acoustic treatments are incapable of generating perhaps anything close to this same level of musicality at higher volumes and no acoustic treatments.
How is it that you guys are still unable to connect the dots? It's not rocket science. I'll ask once again. Is it at all possible that your acoustic treatments do little more than make an otherwise intolerable playback system a bit more tolerable / less fatiguing? Is that really what you call more musical?
The topic is arguments for/against room acoustic treatments. Surely you derailers have smartphones. Capture an in-room listening session and demonstrate for the rest of us what your acoustic treatments do to improve your playback systems' level of musicality.
Behold. Higher listening volumes with no acoustic treatments and no custom room. Just sufficient speaker positioning, subwoofer tuning, and a greatly lowered playback system noise floor. It doesn't get much simpler than that and yet you are still unable to connect the dots?
I also have managed to get really good sound over the years with no room acoustic treatment...maybe some record shelves acting as diffusers but nothing on purpose. Good speakers, good electronics, some control on power quality...
Stehno, which recording of Firebird is that? It sounds rather different from my recording in terms of performance and emphasis of certain instruments.
I agree with your point that clean power, speaker and listening position, and low system noise level can go a long way to achieving great sound without the need for audiophile acoustic room treatments. When all this is working together, when can surely listen at a more realistic volume.
I agree with your point that clean power, speaker and listening position, and low system noise level can go a long way to achieving great sound without the need for audiophile acoustic room treatments. When all this is working together, when can surely listen at a more realistic volume.
If you would have paid attention, I do not listen at elevators levels, but rather loudly, even though I avoid ear-damaging volume levels. I agree, room treatments or other means to get rid of unwanted reflections/resonances are more important at loud listening levels.
I would have expected that you know by now where I stand on the Audiophile Video Wars on WBF and that I don't do videos. Most videos don't sound good, and none that I have heard sound convincing. That includes your videos too.
I have in fact answered that question in #88.
Sustained levels of 110 dB like with a chain saw are probably not a good idea with music either. But yes, lower distortion helps. And the lower the distortion got in my system over time, the more I felt inclined to listen loudly. Also, the less distortion, the less loud the music seems. There have been many moments lately where I have thought that cranking up more would be fun, but my SPL meter told me in bold numbers: "Nope, buddy, not a good idea for your ears".
Of course even undistorted music can cause hearing damage over time at excessive levels. Many classical musicians have hearing damage, and in recent years some orchestras have, with mixed success, tried to shield musicians from hearing damage by plastic barriers. Some of the most affected players seem to be the ones sitting right in front of the trumpets.
Do you have any power regeneration in your system? I use it for my sources and I find it helps a lot...depends on your location probably and power stabilty but I have found it to be mostly a big plus.
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