The big sound

[MylesBAstor]

Actually I am not talking mutichannel, sorry you got that idea. Simply a middle speaker, thats all. Not surround, etc. That middle speaker provides energy where none exists in the wall of sound.

Tom

I think that works when you deal with a three track recording -- as was done in the early days of stereo where there was an expectation that a middle channel would be added.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I just took another look Myles and I am pretty sure this is a snake oil company. They are generating fields that do magic things for your system. And the more of their boxes you buy and scatter around your room, the better the effect will be. And once again, only they know how to work this magic.

Well it had quantum in the name

I heard the product in my system around 10-12 years ago. It had an effect but not to my liking. At that time, I felt it would be great for someone with a digital based system since it darkened the sound and would tame that digital tizziness.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Well, although I enjoy muti sound at my sons place, I meant that a middle speaker, only, addresses the lack of energy between a stereo pair. It requires another amp, or you can just do the hafler thing and tap off of both existing speakers, etc.

The "hafler thing" is not particularly good for a center channel as it captures the difference between the L/R channels. This may widen the soundstage but at the expense of center fill.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I think that works when you deal with a three track recording -- as was done in the early days of stereo where there was an expectation that a middle channel would be added.

Agreed and it also works with additional channels.

Kal

 

[FrantzM]

Please name me one component used in stereo systems that was designed using quantum mechanics and please show the white paper that would surely accompany said component. And while we are at it, what necessary scientific precepts haven't CD player engineers been following and how did you come to that conclusion? Are we back to your NOS DAC and fast HEXFREDs in the power supply?

 

[DonH50]

Originally Posted by mep
Muralman-I don't understand the point of your post. Don never said that you can't play a system loudly because it will break up. Don's contention is that the largest contributor of distortion in a typical stereo system is the speakers and not the electronics and I agree (please correct me Don if I misstated what you meant). If you try hard enough, you can make any amp clip. Some amps you won't have to try hard at all if you make a bad match between speakers and amp. Let's say for instance an 8 watt SET hooked up to a pair of 87dB efficient speakers and you like to listen loud. If you properly match the amp to the speaker, distortion from the amp should never be a problem in your system assuming the amp was designed correctly.

On this matter, Mep, I agree with you, except it is wrong to assume there are no amp/speaker matings that can go loud without breaking up. That problem does apply to most systems. For example, I had Pass x 600 amps powering 4 ohm speakers. Listening to Bolero that amazing final movement always sounded like Godzilla rather than instruments. All my systems failed there.... until my present system. Now, the beast is gone and the horns and all are in focus.

Yup, mep got it right (thanks!) I was responding only to the implication that amps are the primary distortion source in an audio system. I neither said, nor hopefully implied, anything more than that; not about the ability of system to play louder than we can stand without noticeable (or least objectionable) distortion (mine already does that), nor that some amps are better than others driving certain (or any) speakers, or anything else. Your speakers are certainly in position to push most amps to their limits!

Planar dynamic, electrostatic, and ribbon speakers are among the lowest-distortion types measured, and include some of the most difficult to drive, for various reasons. Their shortcomings with respect to conventional speakers are also well-known (hard to get deep bass and very high volume due to limited excursion as a byproduct of the design). And, at their best, with most amps their distortion is at least an order of magnitude more than the amp's output.

I rarely state absolutes as they are too often (and often too easily) proven wrong. I do not believe I have ever stated there are no systems that cannot play loudly... I will stand by my statement that, for most systems, what you hear are the speakers distorting (due to cone modes, excursion limits, thermal effects, nonlinear driving EM fields, etc.) more so than the amps. - Don (should have stayed lurking)

 

[tony ky ma]

Yup, mep got it right (thanks!) I was responding only to the implication that amps are the primary distortion source in an audio system. I neither said, nor hopefully implied, anything more than that; not about the ability of system to play louder than we can stand without noticeable (or least objectionable) distortion (mine already does that), nor that some amps are better than others driving certain (or any) speakers, or anything else. Your speakers are certainly in position to push most amps to their limits!

Planar dynamic, electrostatic, and ribbon speakers are among the lowest-distortion types measured, and include some of the most difficult to drive, for various reasons. Their shortcomings with respect to conventional speakers are also well-known (hard to get deep bass and very high volume due to limited excursion as a byproduct of the design). And, at their best, with most amps their distortion is at least an order of magnitude more than the amp's output.

I rarely state absolutes as they are too often (and often too easily) proven wrong. I do not believe I have ever stated there are no systems that cannot play loudly... I will stand by my statement that, for most systems, what you hear are the speakers distorting (due to cone modes, excursion limits, thermal effects, nonlinear driving EM fields, etc.) more so than the amps. - Don (should have stayed lurking)

I guess the amp drive the crossover network of the speaker has bigger distortion than direct to the driver, so when doing mods of the network change to higher quality parts will have big change in sound, actually the design of the network will present the quality of that speaker ( single full range not count)
tony ma

 

[fas42]

I'm sorry to question your credibility so bluntly, Frank, but you've come here telling us you've discovered the trick that accomplishes the one thing that is the primary audio objective -- transparency, disappearing speakers -- and another that we all know is impossible -- perfect imaging from any position in the room -- and then you've made it clear that you haven't even addressed the fundamentals. I really have no choice but to question your credibility.

Tim, it's OK, I know you're a good guy, down deep, deep, DEEP inside, so I'll let you beat me up a bit. Keeps me on my toes ...

Actually, I was pretty tired at the time, end of a long day, I should have phrased things a bit better, etc.

So, I'll try really, really, REALLY hard from now on to be 100% logical and "scientific" ALL the time!

There, that should keep everyone happy, well, as least for a few minutes ...

Frank

 

[DonH50]

I didn't quite follow that, Tony. It is very true that bi- (or whatever-) amping, i.e. directly driving the individual speakers from an amp, using a crossover before the amplifiers, will almost always work better than using a crossover. The difference may be quite small, or not (I have seen it be a big difference or almost none, measured and heard). Either way, and IMO, the speaker, not the amp, is still the major source of distortion in the system.

Whether the amp's output is better or not depends upon the speaker... In some cases, the crossover network provides a better impedance match and makes the speaker easier for the amplifier to drive. Not always true, not by a long shot, but worth mentioning.

Note that a lot of crossover mods don't only change component "quality" but also tweak the actual crossover points. The latter may have a much larger impact on the sound, for better or worse. In terms of components, I have not done a lot of crossover mods, but my experience has been than better inductors provide the most bang for the buck by going to larger wire (better effective damping factor, lower loss, higher Q). Changing capacitors never seemed to do as much for me. In this case, your mileage may definitely vary. - Don

 

[c1ferrari]

...the overwhelming bulk of the distortion happens where the system is challenged to convert acoustical energy into electrical energy and back again. At the transducers. At the microphone, the phono cartridge, the speaker.

+1

 

[fas42]

Vince, again you did a sterling job of defending the fort against the Indians, while I recovered from the exhaustion of continually firing down on the hordes, and thanks for the compliments!

A quick summary. The point I was trying to make to Tim (badly!) earlier is that nearly everyone here thinks all distortion is the same in terms of its impact on the ear/brain! People will drool over an amp that is continually pumping out 1% distortion, and run screaming from the room with an amp where the figures will show no more than 0.01%. Don would have to say, all these poor people are suffering under terrible delusions, they should look at my meter readings, and realise which is the good sound. They should just go back inside, and force themselves to appreciate a very low distortion system

Frank

 

[fas42]

Vince, a quick thought. How many audiophiles have listened to your system when it has been humming nicely; definitely not counting people who don't take sound seriously, or who are not bothered either way? What were their reactions?

Frank

 

[fas42]

Tim, very quick and a bit OT: those AVi's of yours, what are the sensitivities of the drivers? In other words, what dB's out before the amps clip?

(I'm sick to death of products whose spec's tell you absolutely nothing useful about the product! 20-20,000Hz frequency response for an amp ... Wow! Gee, it must be good!!

Frank

 

[DonH50]

<post elided -- not worth the effort -- I am clearly unable to communicate effectively in this thread>

IMD is much more noticeable than THD.

 

[fas42]

IMD is much more noticeable than THD.

Exactly.

Part of what I am saying is that the fiddly little things I keep talking about is reducing that unpleasant IMD, plus other, completely amusical nasties, to as low a level as possible, giving the ear/brain a much better chance of handling low order HD, a far more benign effect. Of course, speaker drivers stink with HD, but it is generally low order stuff, the head doesn't have trouble handling it.

In the good old day, in HiFiNews, Colloms actually did graphs of speakers showing 2nd and 3rd order distortion, from 20Hz to 20kHz, at 86dB and at 96dB acoustic output. Wow, amazing, actually useful stuff!! You could compare 2 small bookshelf speakers and get an idea which might sound better! Gee, they definitely had strange thoughts on what was useful back then ...

Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit sarcastic at the moment ...

Frank

 

[tony ky ma]

I didn't quite follow that, Tony. It is very true that bi- (or whatever-) amping, i.e. directly driving the individual speakers from an amp, using a crossover before the amplifiers, will almost always work better than using a crossover. The difference may be quite small, or not (I have seen it be a big difference or almost none, measured and heard). Either way, and IMO, the speaker, not the amp, is still the major source of distortion in the system.

Whether the amp's output is better or not depends upon the speaker... In some cases, the crossover network provides a better impedance match and makes the speaker easier for the amplifier to drive. Not always true, not by a long shot, but worth mentioning.

Note that a lot of crossover mods don't only change component "quality" but also tweak the actual crossover points. The latter may have a much larger impact on the sound, for better or worse. In terms of components, I have not done a lot of crossover mods, but my experience has been than better inductors provide the most bang for the buck by going to larger wire (better effective damping factor, lower loss, higher Q). Changing capacitors never seemed to do as much for me. In this case, your mileage may definitely vary. - Don

Don, I do believe amp direct to the speaker driver is the best way, because the coil of the driver will create a voltage back to the amp, if nothing in between, amp can control better, crossover in speaker is in high current so parts has to be higher wattage things and not too accuracy compare to the filter use in front of power amp as crossover which only in small amount volt and current,
actually I do no mods of speaker's crossover for myself because I use 4 amps system all direct but I understand that cap is very sensitive to the quality otherwise those Hi End cap for speaker will not charge as more than the driver still has the market
tony ma

 

[fas42]

I do believe amp direct to the speaker driver is the best way, because the coil of the driver will create a voltage back to the amp, if nothing in between, amp can control better, crossover in speaker is in high current so parts has to be higher wattage things and not too accuracy compare to the filter use in front of power amp as crossover which only in small amount volt and current,
actually I do no mods of speaker's crossover for myself because I use 4 amps system all direct but I understand that cap is very sensitive to the quality otherwise those Hi End cap for speaker will not charge as more than the driver still has the market

Agree almost 100%. About as good a tweak as one can do.

Frank

 

[muralman1]

Please name me one component used in stereo systems that was designed using quantum mechanics and please show the white paper that would surely accompany said component. And while we are at it, what necessary scientific precepts haven't CD player engineers been following and how did you come to that conclusion? Are we back to your NOS DAC and fast HEXFREDs in the power supply?

Scientists quite familiar with quantum mechanics gave us the transistor, diode, and laser. These items cannot be reproduced using every day electronics science.

 

[muralman1]

I didn't quite follow that, Tony. It is very true that bi- (or whatever-) amping, i.e. directly driving the individual speakers from an amp, using a crossover before the amplifiers, will almost always work better than using a crossover. The difference may be quite small, or not (I have seen it be a big difference or almost none, measured and heard). Either way, and IMO, the speaker, not the amp, is still the major source of distortion in the system.

Whether the amp's output is better or not depends upon the speaker... In some cases, the crossover network provides a better impedance match and makes the speaker easier for the amplifier to drive. Not always true, not by a long shot, but worth mentioning.

Note that a lot of crossover mods don't only change component "quality" but also tweak the actual crossover points. The latter may have a much larger impact on the sound, for better or worse. In terms of components, I have not done a lot of crossover mods, but my experience has been than better inductors provide the most bang for the buck by going to larger wire (better effective damping factor, lower loss, higher Q). Changing capacitors never seemed to do as much for me. In this case, your mileage may definitely vary. - Don

Agree -- I know a speaker repairer who consistently threw out all the Sprague cross over caps he came across in his fixes. I run my speakers with the original Sprague caps, and I can truthfully testify there is nothing wrong with them.

 

[DonH50]

Don, I do believe amp direct to the speaker driver is the best way, because the coil of the driver will create a voltage back to the amp, if nothing in between, amp can control better, crossover in speaker is in high current so parts has to be higher wattage things and not too accuracy compare to the filter use in front of power amp as crossover which only in small amount volt and current,
actually I do no mods of speaker's crossover for myself because I use 4 amps system all direct but I understand that cap is very sensitive to the quality otherwise those Hi End cap for speaker will not charge as more than the driver still has the market
tony ma

Yes, we understand and agree with each other on the amp/speaker connections, Tony.

I have little experience with xovr mods so will just say price can be a poor measure of performance (improvement).

By the way, you have one of the coolest systems on the site, looks and performance!

All the best,
Don