The big sound

[fas42]

He can't articulate that-trust me.

frank - 1, mep - 0

Frank

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thanks for that response, Myles. Agreed, you are never going to eliminate ALL distortion, but there appears to be almost a magical barrier in terms of lowering the distortion to a certain point, that you CAN get through. One can think of it almost like the sound barrier (pun intended!) that engineers were working against for years: many technical people gave up, believing it was impossible to go faster than the speed of sound, it was a pretty fanatical few who kept persevering and persevering, and suddenly it happened. Then everyone accepted that is was possible, and everyone moved forward ...

For me, as I have repeated over and over again, the key is treble disortion. The ear/brain is most sensitive to this, the higher the frequency the worse it is, and virtually all equipment is most prone to producing it -- nature really had it in for us!! I can't say how much you have to reduce it by, but I do know you have to be absolutely meticulous in eliminating weaknesses in your system to reduce it to the right level. In this regard, all connections are a big headache, for example!

How do you know you have it low enough? By the fact that you can no longer hear the tweeter working! Many of the people here now think I am totally mad, because I keep banging on about this, but once you experience it, you say, "Bloody hell!!"

Why do you hear the tweeter working normally? I believe it's because your ear/brain is having to work hard to bypass, listen past the high frequency distortion, to hear the intended message, the musical performance; so the ear/brain focuses like crazy on that sound source to pick up what it wants to hear. It's a bit like listening to a person talking in a noisy room and trying to catch the words-- you stare rigidly at his mouth almost, hoping to pick up the words.

Frank

It seems to me that what you're talking about [distortion] has more to do with long term "listenability" than it has to do with "big" sound.

And for me, that problematic area for distortion doesn't lie in the upper octaves but in the upper midrange area, specifically around 3000 Hz. Thats why you have trouble eliminating it because you're searching in the wrong area. Indeed, if you read the papers by Jung, Marsh and Curl, they'll point out what we often interpret as FR aberrations is actually distortion.

Give a listen to a system based around a set of well designed set of electrostatics; that'll give you a clue about some vanishingly low distortion levels.

 

[muralman1]

It seems to me that what you're talking about [distortion] has more to do with long term "listenability" than it has to do with "big" sound.

And for me, that problematic area for distortion doesn't lie in the upper octaves but in the upper midrange area, specifically around 3000 Hz. Thats why you have trouble eliminating it because you're searching in the wrong area. Indeed, if you read the papers by Jung, Marsh and Curl, they'll point out what we often interpret as FR aberrations is actually distortion.

Give a listen to a system based around a set of well designed set of electrostatics; that'll give you a clue about some vanishingly low distortion levels.

Exactly, and among all the Apogees that were made, the Scinitlla is a champ at revealing a system's devils.

 

[fas42]

It seems to me that what you're talking about [distortion] has more to do with long term "listenability" than it has to do with "big" sound.

Actually, it has to do with both. When it falls into place, everything works correctly. You can listen for hours for hours on end, AND it will give you the "big" sound. You know what , it will be just like going to a live concert with the symphony orchestra! "Big" sound, in spades, lasting hour after hour, with no effort.

Give a listen to a system based around a set of well designed set of electrostatics; that'll give you a clue about some vanishingly low distortion levels.

Yes, and that is exactly what Vince has, who is using the same language as me. Yes, they are not ya standard Quads (which I have listened to recently, driven by the "proper", current Quad valve amps, etc. -- pleasant enough, and a good starting point to start tweaking), but the primary means of producing sound is very similar, and he has only achieved the "trick" by fiddling with his gear for 6 years. As he says, he is sick of hearing people say that they know what his system sounds like ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Exactly, and among all the Apogees that were made, the Scinitlla is a champ at revealing a system's devils.

Thank you, Vince, and perfect timing!!

Frank

 

[mep]

frank - 1, mep - 0

Frank

Not really. Here is your response to Myles "I can't say how much you have to reduce it by, but I do know you have to be absolutely meticulous in eliminating weaknesses in your system to reduce it to the right level." You proved my point-you can't articulate it in any meaningful way.

 

[mep]

Yes, and that is exactly what Vince has, who is using the same language as me. Yes, they are not ya standard Quads (which I have listened to recently, driven by the "proper", current Quad valve amps, etc. -- pleasant enough, and a good starting point to start tweaking), but the primary means of producing sound is very similar, and he has only achieved the "trick" by fiddling with his gear for 6 years. As he says, he is sick of hearing people say that they know what his system sounds like ...

Frank

That is not exactly what Vince has. Vince has ribbon speakers.

 

[fas42]

And for me, that problematic area for distortion doesn't lie in the upper octaves but in the upper midrange area, specifically around 3000 Hz. Thats why you have trouble eliminating it because you're searching in the wrong area. Indeed, if you read the papers by Jung, Marsh and Curl, they'll point out what we often interpret as FR aberrations is actually distortion.

Actually, I am looking in exactly the right area! The distortion that we wish to eliminate are the harmonics, etc, of that 3kHz tone which are 6kHz, 9kHz, 12kHz, 16kHz, 18kHz, my goodness, high frequency stuff! And where do you hear that high frequency stuff? Why, out of the tweeter of course. No wonder tweeters sound so "dirty" so much of the time ....

Frank

 

[fas42]

Okay, mep, I get your point.

The distortion at 9.53kHz has to be reduced to a level of 0.0034%
The distortion at 12.7kHz has to be reduced to a level of 0.017%
The distortion at 16.85kHz has to be reduced to a level of 0.009%

These are very firm figures I have figured out over many years using my $200K worth of test gear, and need to be followed precisely ...

Happy now?

Frank

 

[mep]

Okay, mep, I get your point.

The distortion at 9.53kHz has to be reduced to a level of 0.0034%
The distortion at 12.7kHz has to be reduced to a level of 0.017%
The distortion at 16.85kHz has to be reduced to a level of 0.009%

These are very firm figures I have figured out over many years using my $200K worth of test gear, and need to be followed precisely ...

Happy now?

Frank

You just keep proving my point Frank. Since any modern amp is not producing distortion at a level you would ever hear from a tweeter unless you are clipping the amp, how are you going to fix the tweeter?? Do you "fix" it like you did by removing the cap from the tweeter crossover network which protects the tweeter from tyring to reproduce lower frequencies which will destroy it? You said before on another post that you removed the tweeter cap. Or is it just a matter of playing the Status Quo CD for an hour so you "condition" the tweeter as you have described before?

 

[fas42]

Since any modern amp is not producing distortion at a level you would ever hear from a tweeter unless you are clipping the amp

I'm sorry, mep, unfortunately you're wrong. The Status Quo is excellent at pinpointing whether the amp is reasonable or not, 10 years ago most amps were pretty atrocious in this regard, the latest ones are getting better, Naim know a thing or two about it, class D done PROPERLY will do it nicely, as Vince knows. Every time you read a review where they say the sound changes depending upon volume you know the amp is not up to snuff.

And I will repeat, for the 10,000th time, this is NOT a speaker problem.

You said before on another post that you removed the tweeter cap

I have never said I removed a tweeter cap, just that it would be a smart thing to do if you could filter the signal or protect the tweeter by other means. And yes, if you can't do anything about it, condition the tweenter and cap(s) by driving them hard with music with lots of high frequency content. Don't know how I would handle string quartets going for it with treble not right for that length of time, though ...

Frank

 

[mep]

The sound will always change as you turn up the volume. Every recording needs a certain volume level in order to sound realistic. Have you ever heard of the Fletcher Munson curve? You can repeat something 1,000,000 times and it won't make it the truth Frank. So if you seriously think that the amp is causing the tweeter to distort, please explain what methods you have used inside the amplifier to banish these distortions. And please, some concrete examples that we can all understand.

 

[fas42]

The sound will always change as you turn up the volume.

No, it doesn't. Many people with well sorted out systems will say that: they can turn up the volume quite a bit and you not really aware that it is getting louder.

Every recording needs a certain volume level in order to sound realistic.

That's another urban myth. When working well, I can turn down the volume, and turn it down until you can barely hear it, and the sound is still there. My wife, says, "You have to turn it off completely, otherwise my head keeps being drawn to the music, when I need to be concentrating on something else." THAT'S the down side: when working well, you can't ignore it, I'm afraid.

So if you seriously think that the amp is causing the tweeter to distort, please explain what methods you have used inside the amplifier to banish these distortions.

On one amp did the hardwiring thing, and boosted the power supply caps with decent ones in parallel, ended up throwing out the big Mutha caps it used because the screw tops were turning (another weakness!). It still has weaknesses though ...
On another I have re-engineered the power supply by fiddling around the rectifier area, along the lines of the fast diodes people play with, which is only part of the answer. Also worried a great deal about filtering of the mains coming in. Interestingly here, I haven't needed to play with the supply caps even though they are pretty nothing, the amp topology is good enough to get a decent result so far.

So you see, there is no simple set of steps to follow, and I don't have ALL the answers. I just know if I keep fiddling and fiddling, then I end up getting the results ...

Frank

 

[JackD201]

Jack (or anyone else who knows)-where do you draw the line between a small room and a large room? My room is an "L" shape that is approximately 15' W x 23' L x 9' H. The L shape is at the listening end of the room and adds an additional 4' of space to the left of where I sit. I wouldn't consider this to be a small room, but I don't know if it qualifies for a "large" designation either. Who set the definitions and what are they?

Typically you draw the line based on half the wavelength of the lowest target frequency and your longest dimension. The target frequency should be the lowest frequency the system can produce +/-0dB.

So if your longest dimension is less than say half of 20Hz and the system does 20Hz you'll typically need more and more damping the shorter the dimension is.

Domestic applications means we make do with what you have, buy a place with an appropriate space or if fortunate enough get to build one from scratch. Most resources and solutions are centered on the first two and rightly so. The game changes when you have a lot of freedom when building as was the case with me and Mike.

 

[mep]

I have never said I removed a tweeter cap, just that it would be a smart thing to do if you could filter the signal or protect the tweeter by other means. Frank

Here is what you said in your "invisible" thread: Remember, the key component in between the amp and tweeter in 99% of systems is one of those useless capacitors that all tweakers hate with a passion . What's the point of obsessing about making amps DC coupled if you still end up going through a lousy, cheap cap at the end of the chain -- remember the swimming pool liner analogy!!

So, I guess I deduced that since you called the cap "useless" that you removed it.

 

[muralman1]

Frank is 95% correct. My wife is the same way. When the music plays, it commands attention, because it lives. Also, like he says, the music should NOT change as you increase the sound. One place where Mep is making sense is, when you tune in an acoustic guitar solo, there will be a proper volume. Just as when you play any song by Heart, you got to turn it way up. If you are going to listen to a grand piano, that too has to be played loud on a full range speaker, or you just aren't going to get the gut thing going.

 

[fas42]

So, I guess I deduced that since you called the cap "useless" that you removed it.

Sorry, mep, my fault, I was just being sarcastic in the sense that tweakers get very upset by supposedly low quality cap's, I should have added an icon, as in . My apologies ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

One place where Mep is making sense is, when you tune in an acoustic guitar solo, there will be a proper volume.

Thanks, Vince, that's a good clarification. There would be no point in having a flute solo blowing the windows out, I take your point ...

Frank

 

[andromedaaudio]

Hai my name is henk jan(Holland ) and i would like to share my opinion on amps "real life " sound / distortion .
I also think that you need good clean power to correctly drive a speaker , a high impedance /no strange dips crossover , high efficiency speaker will be satisfied with less power off course. most of the time the amps distort first ,not the speaker.
Thats one reason why i like the ML s and Krells with good currentdelivery , big powersupplies amplifiers.
Second i dont think its neccescarily the full range 20 hz /40 hz region that " has" to be there , but its the amount of membrane surface with which the bass area around/under40 hz and above is been projected in the room, thats why for example a dali megaline can sound majestic although i think from the specs doesnt go much deeper than 40 hz i think 40 hz -3 dB, you need power and membrane surface for a real life sound ,no monitorspeakers .
And as said before here, on absolute terms analogue is more revealing / life like , at least i think, but you wont get those results from budget components .

greets hj

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Frank, I don't know what you mean when you say the music doesn't change when you turn it down. But if you mean the only thing that would be meaningful - that as you turn down the music, the balance of the frequency response and, therefore, our ability to get the full impact of the art doesn't change, only the volume does - then I know, once again, that you're hearing what you want to hear, not what is there. How? The frequency-specific hearing thresholds of humans changes dramatically as volume decreases. That is a fact long ago established and often verified, that no amount of tweakng can alter. The same goes for the fact we've already talked about -- that in any competent, modern system, the overwhelming bulk of the distortion happens where the system is challenged to convert acoustical energy into electrical energy and back again. At the transducers. At the microphone, the phono cartridge, the speaker. And none of your tweaking has any impact there either. I know that you can't possibly be getting the transformative results you think you're getting because you're not even working on the right stuff. You're trying to tune a piano by polishing its feet, but you have yourself so utterly convinced of the efficacy of your methods that you hear perfect pitch from strings that have been left untouched.

I am awed by the power of the mind!

Tim