Sorry, Jack, I've had a long day's driving, and at the moment your response just doesn't make any sense to me. Please rephrase, or possibly we should just let it drop ...
Thanks,
Frank
The big sound
- Thread starter mep
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Thanks,
Frank
Will just add from my point of view, that this thing about the last ounce of bass has never made sense to me. So long as there is a decent level to get double basses or pianos, say, to sound authentic, it has never worried me one way or the other. Far, far more important to me is whether the bass has the right punch, the kick in the guts feeling you get standing next to a real bass drum.
Frank
Frank
Well the theory is that the last octave (barely audible at reasonable volume levels), even of double bass alters not only the depth of the bass but the illusion of space created in the room. I've dialed that last octave in and out a hundred times, and I hear this effect sometimes if I'm listening for it. But until I read about it on the internet, all I heard was added depth, so I'll conclude the effect is psychoacoustic. Bigger bass = bigger space? Not necessarily, but if I expect to hear that, that's what I hear. It is an interpretation. But it is an interpretation of something that is actually there.
Tim
But not all the lows. I have heard systems with excellent bass quality and extension that do no have the sense of space.
One of my most memorable sessions that illustrates what you report was with Martin Logan Odyssey and a Descent subwoofer, playing some acoustic music with out great bass content. When the subwoofer was switched on there was mainly only one difference - the spaciousness and dimensions of the hall were much greater. But the same subwoofer in another room with similar speakers could not reproduce this effect.
I have found that one critical parameter of bass is the way the speaker bass "couples" with your listening room. Although you can tune the bass positioning the speaker in the room, if the room bass gain is not adequate for your speaker no fine tuning can transform it. You can improve it, but you will not get the magic. Most of the time, different opinions about the bass performance of speakers are due the room bass gain differences.
BTW, my Soundlab A1 PX can not go lower than 28 Hz, but I notice many underground, air conditioning and shutting doors noise in many classical recording.
is deep bass extension important for 'a big sound'?
i think yes, but it's not that simple.
my speakers are said (by the manufacturer) to have the capability to go to -3db at 10 hz and -6db at 7hz. they also have 2 powered 15" drivers in sealed boxes per side. i know that they have a FR that is rising at 20hz (+1db) but i've not measured them below 20hz so i don't really know exactly what they do down there in-room. i've had these speakers for 4 years.
my room had been overdamped, until about a year ago when i removed 2 very large bass traps in the front of the room and added Quietrock THX 545 to the walls to really firm up the room boundaries. at that point the soundstage in the room definitely got bigger as i heard quite a bit more ambience, the room pressurized much more easily.
i cannot say whether this change extended my bass deeper, although i would guess it did. what it certainly did was make all the bass more linear.
then 6 months ago i sealed up the majority of the bass trapping in my ceiling. ambient retrival and 'stage size' improved even more. the final issue was adding the Equi=tech isolation transformer......which improved linearity in the bass even more and therefore the level of foundation and low level ambience and attained that final level of note decay.
so it's not just bass extension, or ability to move air; it's also how your room controls the energy, and how precise your signal path and power grid can remove distortion. it all counts for that 'big sound'......in degrees of effect.
as far as higher frequency effects on 'the big sound' i'd say not nearly as much as dealing with bass issues, but it's not inconsequential. when i added the quietrock and removed the bass absorbtion in the ceiling i ended up adding some surface diffusion to the flat hard surfaces to remove a bit of slappy and smeared imaging. this definitely added to the sense of 'air' and note decay.
any time distortion gets removed images and soundstage gets more stable and solid, the sense of stage gets enhanced.
i think yes, but it's not that simple.
my speakers are said (by the manufacturer) to have the capability to go to -3db at 10 hz and -6db at 7hz. they also have 2 powered 15" drivers in sealed boxes per side. i know that they have a FR that is rising at 20hz (+1db) but i've not measured them below 20hz so i don't really know exactly what they do down there in-room. i've had these speakers for 4 years.
my room had been overdamped, until about a year ago when i removed 2 very large bass traps in the front of the room and added Quietrock THX 545 to the walls to really firm up the room boundaries. at that point the soundstage in the room definitely got bigger as i heard quite a bit more ambience, the room pressurized much more easily.
i cannot say whether this change extended my bass deeper, although i would guess it did. what it certainly did was make all the bass more linear.
then 6 months ago i sealed up the majority of the bass trapping in my ceiling. ambient retrival and 'stage size' improved even more. the final issue was adding the Equi=tech isolation transformer......which improved linearity in the bass even more and therefore the level of foundation and low level ambience and attained that final level of note decay.
so it's not just bass extension, or ability to move air; it's also how your room controls the energy, and how precise your signal path and power grid can remove distortion. it all counts for that 'big sound'......in degrees of effect.
as far as higher frequency effects on 'the big sound' i'd say not nearly as much as dealing with bass issues, but it's not inconsequential. when i added the quietrock and removed the bass absorbtion in the ceiling i ended up adding some surface diffusion to the flat hard surfaces to remove a bit of slappy and smeared imaging. this definitely added to the sense of 'air' and note decay.
any time distortion gets removed images and soundstage gets more stable and solid, the sense of stage gets enhanced.
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Yes Mike, it's got to be a balance between the room's ability to let bass develop and the system's ability to reproduce the bass. In both our cases we're dealing with large room acoustics which differs from small room acoustics. I'm making this distinction because when folks go looking around the web for resources the majority of what they find is info for small room acoustics. Small rooms need more damping and if one were to apply the principles for SRA to a large room the effects would be unpredictable. Unpredictable in the sense that there will be things such as suck out not provided for in the modeling. That's why I hired someone that normally does soundstages, halls and places of worship. In large rooms RT at 20Hz can be higher by .2 than RT at 20kHz for our benefit. Your sealing your other traps probably achieved just that. You probably also got more linear response in the process.
Anyhow, psychoacoustics normally associates not the lower frequencies per se with being the cues for the recorded venue size but rather their reverberation times. Where it becomes extremely tricky is that the loudspeakers are pumping out the RT information on the recording, but a large room has long RTs of it's own where a small room doesn't. So the key becomes the location of the traps given the optimal amount of them.
Anyhow, psychoacoustics normally associates not the lower frequencies per se with being the cues for the recorded venue size but rather their reverberation times. Where it becomes extremely tricky is that the loudspeakers are pumping out the RT information on the recording, but a large room has long RTs of it's own where a small room doesn't. So the key becomes the location of the traps given the optimal amount of them.
Mike's whole post is largely echoing exactly where I'm coming from; don't try and control the sound AFTER it comes out of the speakers, you've got to do the job before it starts moving the air molecules ...
Frank
I've seen this expression a number of times now. Could someone please explain exactly what people are signifying by this phrase (though I think I have a fair idea of what they are trying to convey).
-
Frank
Jack (or anyone else who knows)-where do you draw the line between a small room and a large room? My room is an "L" shape that is approximately 15' W x 23' L x 9' H. The L shape is at the listening end of the room and adds an additional 4' of space to the left of where I sit. I wouldn't consider this to be a small room, but I don't know if it qualifies for a "large" designation either. Who set the definitions and what are they?
Hi
Very interesting discussion onr thing to remember: The most palatial rooms where people will people would use as a listening room fall under the purview of "Small Room Acoustics" ... A room 60 X 30 X 15 is under the laws of "Small Room Acoustics"
Also it is important to control the sound after it comes out of the speakers. Once it comes out of the speakers, the room takes over. Room treatments are essential for the best performance one can obtain from any reproduction system.
Now back to the notion of big sound
Two things I would like to discuss with the collective:
1) The issue of Speakers Size:
It seems to me that the small speakers, mini-monitors if you will , even when augmented by the usual subwoofers, do not play very big... They do play loud enough and the subs add the reuisite bass but the whole assembly continue to play "small" IMO... Now where ths get weird: Some speakers are essentially a mini-monitor perched over a woofer ( Wilson Watts , BW 801 and a whole slew of comparable speakers, etc) yet I cannot accuse them of playing "small" ... I could venture some explanations: One of them is that what we associate with the sheer bigness is how well the speaker plays in the mid-bass. say the region from 50 to 150 Hz ... but there is definitely something interesting there ... Larger speakers do not seem to have that problem to the extent that some simply play big even when the music/score doesn't call for that ...
2) Second issue: The Tactile impression brought by proper bass reproduction:
The tactile impression is very important to have that sense of "big". A good headphone reach easily under 20 Hz, can play loud enough to cause permanent hearing damages with low distortion and total absence of room-induced coloration.. Will provide all that is needed in term of reverberation characteristics of the original venue (either real or virtual_.. Yet One can hardly describe the headphone experience as "big" .. Of course one gets the sense of how big the venue is (if the recording allows it) and a good sense of image, yet what one hears through headphone is a description rather than an attempt at a fac simile however imperfect , of the real event. Someone expressed the feeling-in-the-chest one gets from a drum whack .. and no headphone will provide that.. What is able to provide that "bigness" is a system with at least good low bass (under 30 Hz) but especially one with very good to excellent mid bass 50~150 Hz and above. I mean by that power (realistic SPL) , absence of compression in that region, linearity ( meaning a reasonable well behave room response in that region ... The whole body seems to need to be immersed in ta sound field to carry that impression of bigness ..
What do you think?
Oh and before I forget .. That Room pressurization? I don't know how to describe it but in some instances you feel as if the room walls (and you) are being crushed by the sound .. Not a matter of loudness really but of good bass reproduction within the room .. I was getting that day in and out with the 3-subs in a concrete but treated room and closed room ...
Very interesting discussion onr thing to remember: The most palatial rooms where people will people would use as a listening room fall under the purview of "Small Room Acoustics" ... A room 60 X 30 X 15 is under the laws of "Small Room Acoustics"
Also it is important to control the sound after it comes out of the speakers. Once it comes out of the speakers, the room takes over. Room treatments are essential for the best performance one can obtain from any reproduction system.
Now back to the notion of big sound
Two things I would like to discuss with the collective:
1) The issue of Speakers Size:
It seems to me that the small speakers, mini-monitors if you will , even when augmented by the usual subwoofers, do not play very big... They do play loud enough and the subs add the reuisite bass but the whole assembly continue to play "small" IMO... Now where ths get weird: Some speakers are essentially a mini-monitor perched over a woofer ( Wilson Watts , BW 801 and a whole slew of comparable speakers, etc) yet I cannot accuse them of playing "small" ... I could venture some explanations: One of them is that what we associate with the sheer bigness is how well the speaker plays in the mid-bass. say the region from 50 to 150 Hz ... but there is definitely something interesting there ... Larger speakers do not seem to have that problem to the extent that some simply play big even when the music/score doesn't call for that ...
2) Second issue: The Tactile impression brought by proper bass reproduction:
The tactile impression is very important to have that sense of "big". A good headphone reach easily under 20 Hz, can play loud enough to cause permanent hearing damages with low distortion and total absence of room-induced coloration.. Will provide all that is needed in term of reverberation characteristics of the original venue (either real or virtual_.. Yet One can hardly describe the headphone experience as "big" .. Of course one gets the sense of how big the venue is (if the recording allows it) and a good sense of image, yet what one hears through headphone is a description rather than an attempt at a fac simile however imperfect , of the real event. Someone expressed the feeling-in-the-chest one gets from a drum whack .. and no headphone will provide that.. What is able to provide that "bigness" is a system with at least good low bass (under 30 Hz) but especially one with very good to excellent mid bass 50~150 Hz and above. I mean by that power (realistic SPL) , absence of compression in that region, linearity ( meaning a reasonable well behave room response in that region ... The whole body seems to need to be immersed in ta sound field to carry that impression of bigness ..
What do you think?
Oh and before I forget .. That Room pressurization? I don't know how to describe it but in some instances you feel as if the room walls (and you) are being crushed by the sound .. Not a matter of loudness really but of good bass reproduction within the room .. I was getting that day in and out with the 3-subs in a concrete but treated room and closed room ...
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Now isn't that interesting! I could very easily use that very sentence to describe what I hear when my system is in tune, say, listening to Led Zep I or AC/DC going at maximum rev's. No distinctly audible distortion, in other words, miles from the typical PA sound, but the sound completely picks you up and shakes you like a rag doll. And, my system has very average, or even mediocre bass -- so what's going on?? ....
By the way, to repeat myself, there have been tests where most people cannot hear 100% distortion of audio under 100Hz. For example, play a 32Hz tone by itself, then mix in a 64Hz at the same level, people can't pick that anything has changed! Interesting ...
Frank
Frank
SO what's your personal take of that sense of "bigness " that some systems exhibit and some don't? Do you think your system plays big when called for?
On the amount of distortion (Harmonic because there are other kinds and mixing a 64 with a 32 with the phase widely apart is sure to be perceived ) one can perceive I have no problem with that. I simply believe that correct reproduction of bass seems to be necessary for the sensation of "bigness" .. What's your take on these
SO what's your personal take of that sense of "bigness " that some systems exhibit and some don't? Do you think your system plays big when called for?
On the amount of distortion (Harmonic because there are other kinds and mixing a 64 with a 32 with the phase widely apart is sure to be perceived ) one can perceive I have no problem with that. I simply believe that correct reproduction of bass seems to be necessary for the sensation of "bigness" .. What's your take on these
My take, and Tim and mep will have apoplexy over this
, is that the sense of bigness is due to the system having low levels of distortion. PA systems are notorious for going in the other direction on this, they go for "if it ain't loud enough just stick another 8 litre V8 under the hood, and open up the exhaust a bit more". Italian supercar makers, strangely enough, and to continue the analogy, don't do this, they just refine what they start with, and for some peculiar reason it seems to work, or so some people say ...Yes, it certainly adds the "meat" to the sound, again, double basses and pianos don't sound right without it, but "bigness", no. I have a fairly medicre recording of Odetta at Carnegie Hall, with acoustic bass accompaniment; with the subwoofer disconnected, the double bass sounds nowhere near correct, but the sense of bigness of the occasion, the acoustic, doesn't suffer ...
I have an absolutely nothing setup at the moment (check my profile) but when the gods are smiling, yes, it does pick me up like a rag doll, and I am not joking.
Frank
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As a longitudinal observer to the changes in MikeL's room over the past few years, I can independently validate his observations and I think his posts are really 'spot on'.
Prior to his recent room tweaks (and getting his bass modules in phase) the sound was never less than terrific. Now it's even better. I've also been lucky enough to weasel an invitation to Bruce B's studio who has the identical speakers in a meticuously designed sound room. Different presentations and sonic priorities, but both truly state of the art. IMO, getting the last octave 'right' requires a significant added investment in equipment, room and effort. Most of us neither have the resources or inclination required to achieve what Mike L and Bruce B have accomplished in their room/system combinations. I am in awe of the herculean efforts Mike L has invested to wring that last bit of performance from his room and equipment. (Un)fortunately, a lot of the magic of his room is a result of those efforts.
Even with the best systems, all we hope to achieve is a reasonable suspension of disbelief because nothing really captures the ambience and visceral affect of listening to live music.
Prior to his recent room tweaks (and getting his bass modules in phase) the sound was never less than terrific. Now it's even better. I've also been lucky enough to weasel an invitation to Bruce B's studio who has the identical speakers in a meticuously designed sound room. Different presentations and sonic priorities, but both truly state of the art. IMO, getting the last octave 'right' requires a significant added investment in equipment, room and effort. Most of us neither have the resources or inclination required to achieve what Mike L and Bruce B have accomplished in their room/system combinations. I am in awe of the herculean efforts Mike L has invested to wring that last bit of performance from his room and equipment. (Un)fortunately, a lot of the magic of his room is a result of those efforts.
Even with the best systems, all we hope to achieve is a reasonable suspension of disbelief because nothing really captures the ambience and visceral affect of listening to live music.
My take, and Tim and mep will have apoplexy over this
Yes, it certainly adds the "meat" to the sound, again, double basses and pianos don't sound right without it, but "bigness", no. I have a fairly medicre recording of Odetta at Carnegie Hall, with acoustic bass accompaniment; with the subwoofer disconnected, the double bass sounds nowhere near correct, but the sense of bigness of the occasion, the acoustic, doesn't suffer ...
I have an absolutely nothing setup at the moment (check my profile) but when the gods are smiling, yes, it does pick me up like a rag doll, and I am not joking.
Frank
OK how much distortion and what types of distortion are important? You're never going to completely eliminate distortion from the system.
jazzdoc-I completely agree with everything you just posted. Mike has put lots of time and money into both his system and room and has tackled problems through engineering that have led to great results according to those who have heard Mike's system. This is a far different approach than the Ju-ju beans and chicken bones method.
Thanks for that response, Myles. Agreed, you are never going to eliminate ALL distortion, but there appears to be almost a magical barrier in terms of lowering the distortion to a certain point, that you CAN get through. One can think of it almost like the sound barrier (pun intended!) that engineers were working against for years: many technical people gave up, believing it was impossible to go faster than the speed of sound, it was a pretty fanatical few who kept persevering and persevering, and suddenly it happened. Then everyone accepted that it was possible, and everyone moved forward ...
For me, as I have repeated over and over again, the key is treble disortion. The ear/brain is most sensitive to this, the higher the frequency the worse it is, and virtually all equipment is most prone to producing it -- nature really had it in for us!! I can't say how much you have to reduce it by, but I do know you have to be absolutely meticulous in eliminating weaknesses in your system to reduce it to the right level. In this regard, all connections are a big headache, for example!
How do you know you have it low enough? By the fact that you can no longer hear the tweeter working! Many of the people here now think I am totally mad, because I keep banging on about this, but once you experience it, you say, "Bloody hell!!"
Why do you hear the tweeter working normally? I believe it's because your ear/brain is having to work hard to bypass, listen past the high frequency distortion, to hear the intended message, the musical performance; so the ear/brain focuses like crazy on that sound source to pick up what it wants to hear. It's a bit like listening to a person talking in a noisy room and trying to catch the words-- you stare rigidly at his mouth almost, hoping to pick up the words.
Frank
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