The biggest difference I hear between digital and analog

+1 Also very curious.

MSB, Stalhtek, Alesis (may not count as its in the Masterlink), M Audio. No particular order. Used to use Appogee. It was the first DAC that didn't give me a headache. Nowadays the ones that give me headaches are in the minority which is nice. May be my age showing though...
 
MSB, Stalhtek, Alesis (may not count as its in the Masterlink), M Audio. No particular order. Used to use Appogee. It was the first DAC that didn't give me a headache. Nowadays the ones that give me headaches are in the minority which is nice. May be my age showing though...

Thanks, Atmasphere. Do you have any particular comments/feedback on these digital playback systems and how they compare to each other?
 
MSB, Stalhtek, Alesis (may not count as its in the Masterlink), M Audio. No particular order. Used to use Appogee. It was the first DAC that didn't give me a headache. Nowadays the ones that give me headaches are in the minority which is nice. May be my age showing though...

Thanks :) In my DAC developments I got rid of the headache-inducing stuff (sibilance) fairly early on in evolving a design. But that was over two years ago, there was still a lot of work to be done after that in improving the tonality. I've gradually been reducing the characteristic greyness of digital in my design - its added greyness which correlates with what your customers say about the loss of life in digital. What speaks volumes in terms of commercial product is that it's taken so long to get a range of designs which aren't headache inducing:p
 
The question then is how many "thingies" are there in each medium and what is the nature of the noise shaping that occurs ;)
 
Tom-There is nothing digital about analog. I also don’t agree with your use of the word “quantization” with regards to analog waveforms. Quantization is used to describe a digital process for recording digital audio. Sometimes in the interest of making a simple analogy, we can try and jam a square peg into a round hole and say the square peg is now round, but that doesn’t make it true.

Analog represents the continuous recording, storage, and playback of waveforms, not waveforms that are recorded digitally in discrete bits that are later reconstructed into analog waveforms.
 
Technically, analog and digital are processess that convey information and actually are more the middle ground than one or the other:

for example>>

tape theory (in analog tape decks loved by many) states that the iron oxides or whatever, take on a magnetic alignement, and as such eash particle becomes orintated one way or the other, and that is a digital process my dear fellows.

long play theory, that pvc or whatever, its composed of rough bumps or particles, and as such, groups of them convey information to the stylus as it bumps along them, and thats digital process at that level or quantization.

Yes, your LP is a digital process at the lowest levels, and so is air movement, etc....really its all quantization...there aint no smooth analog signals nowhere in audio....but just to remind that processes can be called analog and digital but when you get down to the details things go quantization route...ie tiny information "thingies", whether its oxide tape particles assuming a direction (digital like) or bumps on a LP at a particular spot (digital like)....aint it funny....just sayin.

note: i post here cause the thread i wanted to post this in is recently locked down...but posted here does apply imo.

I posted all that in much more detail in another thread (the 24/192 not worth it thread). The discussion really doesn't go anywhere, as subsequent posts have shown. In many audiophiles' minds, digital is digital and analog is analog, despite the obvious scientific and logical fallacies of that POV.
 
Technically, analog and digital are processess that convey information and actually are more the middle ground than one or the other:

for example>>

tape theory (in analog tape decks loved by many) states that the iron oxides or whatever, take on a magnetic alignement, and as such eash particle becomes orintated one way or the other, and that is a digital process my dear fellows. (...)

Tom,

I am astonished. As you know the magnetic dipoles define an angle with the direction of the movement of the tape, and the voltage signal created by the tape in the head coils depends on it. Are you saying that this angle is a quantum number? Should we add an "audiophile tape momentum number" to quantum mechanics?
 
I'd have to give him the point there. At SOME level, everything is digital. With tape, each grain is a discrete entity although, as I recall, the alignment is not an either/or proposition. Each atom (or is it molecules?) has a discrete "field strength", but can still be aligned in a pretty much infinite choice of directions. How (statistically) all the atoms are aligned will determine how the grain they make up is magnetized (if they're random, then it will be "null" because they all cancel out; if they're all lined up one way, then it will be strongly magnetized in that. Now, at a larger scale, the magnetic field on that area of tape will depend on how strongly all the GRAINS are magnetized, and how consistently THEY are lined up. So you have two levels of granularity, all resting on a very small discrete (digital) basis. I suspect that, the stronger the applied field, the stronger each GRAIN is magnetized AND the more exactly they are aligned - both.The magnetic "signal" is strongest when all the particles in a given area are "fully magnetized" AND are aligned in precisely the same direction.

In any case, however, there is a "digital bit grain", and that is the individual magnetic domain (the atoms). Above that is a SECOND digital grain, the size of the grains. Likewise, vinyl records are obviously digital as well, since they are composed of molecules.... therefore, under a powerful enough microscope, vinyl isn't smooth at all :) Even worse, most of it has plain old lumps (both because plastic molecules are HUGE in the scheme of things molecular, and because most records include all sorts of recycled crud anyway, not to mention how well - or not - the original petroleum which they are made from is filtered and homogenized. All together, we call that SURFACE NOISE..... which has a rather close resemblance to a specific "random" dither pattern.) You could figure it out and model it, if it mattered, by analyzing which way the lumps are usually arranged.

The term "quantization" is really just a general term that refers to fitting analog distributions into number "bins". Long before digital AUDIO, quantization was a major subject for storing pictures. The GIF format only allows 256 colors, so photos, with an infinite number of possible colors, don't fit very well. (GIFs can have only 256 colors, but you can pick WHICH 256 you want for a particular GIF from a much larger palette.) The quantization algorithm was what you used to decide WHICH 256 colors would work best for a given GIF, and the quantization error was the difference between what you started with and what you ended up with - due to the granularity (and inaccuracy) of the bins you were required to "force" the original colors into. The best quantization ALGORITHM was the one that could pick 256 color bins for YOUR GIF that were able to store all the colors in your original photo while producing the LEAST error between the resulting GIF and the original. Likewise, "quantization error" would be a fair way to describe the difference between the values stored in a digital file and the original analog numbers they represent (this is BEFORE any errors generated during reconstruction). With color, the problem end sup being very complex and "multi-dimensional" by most representations. With digital audio, you just increase the bit depth (and so make "the bins" smaller, and so make each error smaller) - which you can arbitrarily continue to do forever - or until you are as close as you need to get to perfect.

The thing that most analog proponents don't seem to realize is that, for a 24 bit digital file, the errors introduced due to quantization error are already SMALLER than the errors (noise) you get on a record from the individual grains of vinyl (which is why the S/N of even a very good record never gets even close to the 124 dB or so you get with a "perfectly recorded" 24 bit digital file).



Tom-There is nothing digital about analog. I also don’t agree with your use of the word “quantization” with regards to analog waveforms. Quantization is used to describe a digital process for recording digital audio. Sometimes in the interest of making a simple analogy, we can try and jam a square peg into a round hole and say the square peg is now round, but that doesn’t make it true.

Analog represents the continuous recording, storage, and playback of waveforms, not waveforms that are recorded digitally in discrete bits that are later reconstructed into analog waveforms.
 
Ok. I get it now. Analog is really digital and digital is really analog. It also just dawned on me that a car is really a truck because they both have tires and a motor and they both will get you to the same destination.

Honestly, I don’t even know why people want to say that somehow analog is really digital. The two recording mediums are very different. Analog doesn’t need digital technology in order to work. The same can’t be said for digital and that is why we must have D/A converters-you can’t listen to digital without them. Digital audio is dependent/reliant upon analog technology in order to work. Analog doesn’t need digital audio technology to work. It never has.

Excuse me, I gotta run. I think my dogs just turned into horses because they both have 4 legs and tails and they are making a bunch of racket.
 
Astonishment is good. And, no we are not talking wave/particle level here, up a level, and if you go further up in level, you get the processes we call analog and digital. The two examples I gave were about the recorded medium similarities at a pretty basic level.

Anyhow, many analog audiophiles who are not too technical can not explain how a microphone can relay simultaneious signals all at once anyway, let alone diving down deeper. No big deal, we all have our interests and specialties.

OK. I see. It like the joke about the similarities of the crocodile and the giraffe. Both have necks. But I would not use the crocodile to explain what is the neck. ;)
 
Well the cheapest way to try it is the DAC-AH which I've just bought for my DAC project. On eBay they run to around $140. Its certainly not the last word in NOS, but its a great place to start out which won't break the bank. Or if you want something a bit more refined you could try the Metrum Octave (which I haven't heard myself but Martin Colloms loved to bits). Both of these have the classic NOS droop which you can almost totally fix up by upsampling on your PC to 96kHz, but you'll lose some dynamics that way.
 
Well the cheapest way to try it is the DAC-AH which I've just bought for my DAC project. On eBay they run to around $140. Its certainly not the last word in NOS, but its a great place to start out which won't break the bank. Or if you want something a bit more refined you could try the Metrum Octave (which I haven't heard myself but Martin Colloms loved to bits). Both of these have the classic NOS droop which you can almost totally fix up by upsampling on your PC to 96kHz, but you'll lose some dynamics that way.

Thank-you kind sir! :)
 
I just realized that for someone (obviously not you Bruce :p) for whom a $140 punt is still a bit risky, you can sample the NOS sound for under $40 here - http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-end-DAC-TDA1543-DIR9001-kit-DIY-WH-1-/190680378411. This is a kit mind, not ready made. I bought one of these (though ready made) so I speak from experience - I didn't much like it at first because of the lack of 'detail'. Eventually I discovered 'detail' is not something on the original recording ;)

Forgot to add - all the DACs I've mentioned are SPDIF input only so to connect to a PC you'll also need one of these ($32) - http://www.ebay.com/itm/HA-INFO-U2-...SPDIF-TOSLINK-Converter-dts-AC3-/261132856395
 

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