Always trust your ears ...for your situation... not someone else's. If that means your choices lead you to the highest of the high ( in your opinion).. more power to ya.
The Case for High End Audio
- Thread starter Ted Denney III
- Start date
The Varese is the DAC to beat these days. It is a huge advance over what has come before.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
no that is the definition of something good. High End is more than just the sound. What you are descibing is better sound. A high End product needs to incomass more than just one thing.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
oh please, and you know that how? A one man survey. YOu have NEVER had a Wadax in your home or your system. You have never compared them to the dCS. I don't know what the dCS new system sounds like so you know what I dont say things I dont know. I have compared dCS to Wadax. MSB to Wadax, Esoteric to Wadax and they were not close. If the Varese can play in the big game that's wonderful but you need to do more to get there than say it does.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
A real High End product should have
1) incredible performance
2) world class build quality
3) reliability
4) first class service before and after the sale
5) packed beautifully
6) clear and precise instructions if required
7) excellent dealer network- if sold through dealers
8) reputation
9) pride of ownership
10) and then the price will be representative of all the other factors to bring it to market etc.
1) incredible performance
2) world class build quality
3) reliability
4) first class service before and after the sale
5) packed beautifully
6) clear and precise instructions if required
7) excellent dealer network- if sold through dealers
8) reputation
9) pride of ownership
10) and then the price will be representative of all the other factors to bring it to market etc.
i think there is a legit dealer/distributor/manufacturer/press viewpoint on what defines hifi High End (products), and an enthusiast viewpoint on what defines hifi High End (efforts). and some but not complete overlap between the two. and that makes perfect sense. it's not an either/or thing. it's just a matter of priorities. which while mostly parallel, they are not identical.
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As far as I know, there isn’t a place where you can hear both DACs on the same system. But I can say it’s the best sounding digital I have heard.
(...) Not me personally: You spend over 60K on a speaker pair 5 years ago and can't get a replacement driver.
This is actually happening right now. The fit and finish and drivers were all top notch yet you can't get a replacement for a damaged woofer.
If the manufacturer won't support a product beyond 5 years why spend the money on a statement system? The manufacturer treats them as disposable with no support how is that a "safe" investment for long term enjoyment?
Rob
IMO this has nothing to do with being high-end or not - it is mostly a general consumer affair. No one can be 100% free from such problems - but buying from knowledgeable dealers who deal with trusty manufacturers will minimize such possibility. Dealers should be the buyer protection, in general we can't expect manufacturers to deal with end consumers.
As far as I have learned in forums, most of the complains and problems of the type you refer are due to human conflicts, unclear opportunistic deals or simply fraudulent behaviour.
Equipment using custom made ASICs, LSI custom devices or custom displays will surely have maintenance problems and a limited lifetime - this is currently happening everyday. Sometimes, in such cases, dealers with supporting manufacturers offer a generous part-exchange discount in the replacement gear.
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In my opinion 1) is the essence of being High End and the more hard to analyse and define. Any manufacturer can claim for "incredible performance". Audiophiles group in tribes that share feelings of "incredible performance" for some type of sound or equipment. My own perception of "incredible sound" has changed along time - this just means that my valuation of specific aspects of stereo sound reproduction have changed.
There are well known reasons why the nine following aspects help the feeling of 1) .
BTW, except for 5) my dish washing machine has all of them.
Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion but at least be realistic. The dealers have no control over the number of spare parts or the amount of time the manufacturer decides to carry them in inventory. Once corporate decides a product is no longer supported you are on your own.
Rob
Agreed….
MSB Select 2 with flagship Gryphon system at Hugh’s and with Magico M9/Plinium in Alon’s factory listening room.
Elliot’s Wadax and Gobel speakers at several shows.
A wide variety of Lampizator Horizon and Esoteric stack systems.
I have not heard the MSB Cascade yet.
All of these systems sounded excellent of course, but I do believe the Varese is really special. I am writing a review today and tomorrow for Positive Feedback but one theme is how low the noise is and what that means for sound.
High End - a market based on the cutting edge technology/engineering yielding the highest performance products and the high costs associated with this market.
High-end items stand as a testament to exceptional craftsmanship and durability, delivering lasting value over time. Embracing quality over quantity not only enhances our daily experiences but also promotes a sustainable and minimalist way of living. This thoughtful approach shifts us away from disposable consumerism, fostering a deeper appreciation for the things we truly value.
However, the high-end market isn’t immune to pitfalls. Many products are marketed as high-end but deliver mediocre performance at best, emphasizing style over substance. This highlights the importance of discerning quality and ensuring that what we invest in truly meets the standards of excellence it claims to represent.
However, the high-end market isn’t immune to pitfalls. Many products are marketed as high-end but deliver mediocre performance at best, emphasizing style over substance. This highlights the importance of discerning quality and ensuring that what we invest in truly meets the standards of excellence it claims to represent.
My brother restores wooden boats. He has developed impressive woodworking skills, built himself a large shop and has purchased top grade machinery including a steam cabinet for bending wood. He also rebuilds the engines himself. He has restored four wooden boats so far and sold two. He is still learning to let go. But these boats look amazing- just like factory new when he is finished. One boat was not much more than a pile of timber when he started. It takes him about 1 1/2 years to restore a boat. I know one boat sold for about $50k, one is for sale for $80k and one around $40k. Now considering the time he has put into these crafts, and thinking about his investment in his workspace, he is subsidizing each of these boats that he sells- heavily subsidizing. He does it out of a labor of love. He doesn’t need the income.
I wouldn’t accuse any of these high end hifi makers of subsidizing their equipment that they sell but I imagine some do not have the profit margin we imagine after considering their costs to build, test, market and distribute their low volume, high end components. Electronic components- especially Integrated Circuits have short product cycles. That forces companies to buy and hold inventory for years in order to avoid costly redesigns. Redesigns are costly plus retesting and recertification add even more cost. Add in the burden of top tier customer support which is expected in the high end hifi world and I think we are fortunate to have all of the choices that we currently enjoy. I’ve had Mark at Antipodes on the phone early morning his time assisting me with a software update. A lot of these guys love audio and their passion for audio shows. Sure, we have some posers in audio but they are quickly found out thanks to forums like these.
Pedigree- reputation is worth more than gold and harder to get. In the hifi world, as a buyer spending more money than I care to, this is for me the first and most important consideration.
I wouldn’t accuse any of these high end hifi makers of subsidizing their equipment that they sell but I imagine some do not have the profit margin we imagine after considering their costs to build, test, market and distribute their low volume, high end components. Electronic components- especially Integrated Circuits have short product cycles. That forces companies to buy and hold inventory for years in order to avoid costly redesigns. Redesigns are costly plus retesting and recertification add even more cost. Add in the burden of top tier customer support which is expected in the high end hifi world and I think we are fortunate to have all of the choices that we currently enjoy. I’ve had Mark at Antipodes on the phone early morning his time assisting me with a software update. A lot of these guys love audio and their passion for audio shows. Sure, we have some posers in audio but they are quickly found out thanks to forums like these.
Pedigree- reputation is worth more than gold and harder to get. In the hifi world, as a buyer spending more money than I care to, this is for me the first and most important consideration.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
thats fine but a one man survery thats its the best totally is absurd Lee. YOu seem to be stuck always on the same 5 products. You need to expand your horizons
thats fine but a one man survery thats its the best totally is absurd Lee. YOu seem to be stuck always on the same 5 products. You need to expand your horizons
I'm just calling the balls and strikes as I see them Elliot.
I listen to wide variety of products at dealers, shows, and homes.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
Im not disputing that anyone can claim anything. The idea of only one item on my list making something high end is IMO absurd. The same thing with the price. High End IMO is more than just one or two things . There was a video recently I saw by the head of Hermes talking about quality and the difference between expensive and costly. He expressed this very well.
A great performing product ( we can argue about this Micro) that has terrrible customer service, or terrible reliability, or looks like crap, or is packed horribly, or is very confusing to use, that has no demand on the second hand market are for me NOT a high end product they are just expensive esoteric.
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