The Case for High End Audio

[Mike Lavigne]

Rare, but not impossible. That is why this sub forum on turntables is so interesting when combined with the various visitor reports.

Reference Turntable, The Step Beyond

Given the dominance of digital and all the new high end widgets showing incredible super powers perfecting “The Perfect Sound Forever” what’s the current resurgence of vinyl and turntables about? At every show one can see a plethora of new and old tables, arms, cartridges, phono stages, etc. in...

www.whatsbestforum.com

not really related to current-build super-uber digital compares. those mostly vintage turntables don't have the commercial concerns of current manufacturers involved. and there was no buy<->not buy angst involved. or the more numerous brand perspectives of dac owners. which makes the digital discussions so polarized.

so something more like a display, not so much a compare and choice type thing.

OTOH i do agree that that forum made for very interesting reading. and plenty of eye candy too. turntable gazing is mostly friendly and a cheerleading exercise. dac love is pugilistic. everyone is a self proclaimed expert/zealot.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I did that with two complete suites of electronics - phono, pre, amps: Pass versus Lamm. That direct comparison prompted the selling of an entire system and the purchase of an entirely new system all within about a month. I agree, lots of parts and effort. The shipping and selling was a massive effort but of course worth it in the end.

like i did with my darTZeel<->Lamm<->VAC amps......although i did not have the preamps for the Lamm and VAC. had to buy the Lamm's and borrow the VAC's.

 

[microstrip]

like i did with my darTZeel<->Lamm<->VAC amps......although i did not have the preamps for the Lamm and VAC. had to buy the Lamm's and borrow the VAC's.

Your direct compares gave you information about compatibility with your system according to your preferences. Your system and the conditions were so particular that IMO a formal review of the three units would be unfair and a poor service to the manufacturers. Surely enjoyable and generating a lot of forum traffic ...

I hosted for some time the Lamm LL1, the ARC REF40, the cj GAT and the VTL 7.5m3. My opinions would strongly depend on the partnering amplifier.

Most audiophiles want shootouts and direct compares. I found that prospective buyers mostly want to listen to equipment in adequate optimized systems that show the best of it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Your direct compares gave you information about compatibility with your system according to your preferences. Your system and the conditions were so particular that IMO a formal review of the three units would be unfair and a poor service to the manufacturers. Surely enjoyable and generating a lot of forum traffic ...

I hosted for some time the Lamm LL1, the ARC REF40, the cj GAT and the VTL 7.5m3. My opinions would strongly depend on the partnering amplifier.

Most audiophiles want shootouts and direct compares. I found that prospective buyers mostly want to listen to equipment in adequate optimized systems that show the best of them.

agree. my time with the Lamm and VAC was in a no way any sort of formal review. i did get what i wanted from it.

 

[PeterA]

not really related to current-build super-uber digital compares. those mostly vintage turntables don't have the commercial concerns of current manufacturers involved. and there was no buy<->not buy angst involved. or the more numerous brand perspectives of dac owners. which makes the digital discussions so polarized.

so something more like a display, not so much a compare and choice type thing.

OTOH i do agree that that forum made for very interesting reading. and plenty of eye candy too. turntable gazing is mostly friendly and a cheerleading exercise. dac love is pugilistic. everyone is a self proclaimed expert/zealot.

I’m looking at it from the customer’s point of view not the manufacturers point of view. And I thought more broadly the issue was simply comparing flagship products to each other in the same system not just limited to top digital sources. But that’s fine.

People who went to visit David were able to hear these turntables compared to each other at least in a couple cases and that is a rare treat. And so many flagship products. I agree they don’t involve ego or risk that manufacturers might have from such direct comparisons of say the top Wilson versus the top living voice horn system. It’s easy to understand why such comparisons are avoided.

You’ve done your readers a service by commenting on the differences you hear between your WADAX and various turntables. Your amplifier comparison was interesting too, although they might’ve been optimized for different types of speakers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I’m looking at it from the customer’s point of view not the manufacturers point of view.

customers? which presumes some degree of reader's buying intent.

how many reading David's tt thread were/are considering buying any of those tt's? or even one of the brands? it was purely for fun and education as how i saw it.

all vintage......American Sound? Goldmund? Thorens? EMT? and this was quite a time prior to David bringing out the AS-2000.

 

[PeterA]

Your direct compares gave you information about compatibility with your system according to your preferences. Your system and the conditions were so particular that IMO a formal review of the three units would be unfair and a poor service to the manufacturers. Surely enjoyable and generating a lot of forum traffic ...

I hosted for some time the Lamm LL1, the ARC REF40, the cj GAT and the VTL 7.5m3. My opinions would strongly depend on the partnering amplifier.

Most audiophiles want shootouts and direct compares. I found that prospective buyers mostly want to listen to equipment in adequate optimized systems that show the best of it.

I agree. When I made my comparisons It was with the entire suite of electronics, and I used the Lamm M1.1 solid-state amplifier appropriate for the Magico speakers. I then tried the Lamm ML2 which was wrong for the speaker, but gave me a sense of how it sounds in various different systems with different speakers. I then chose the SET amplifier and had to find the appropriate speakers.

You really have to compare amplifiers and speakers together. Rarely do you ever hear a Wilson or Magico with the SET you would use for a good horn system. You’re really comparing good amp speaker combinations or inappropriate pairings.

Maybe the case for high-end Audio is that there are more typologies available for making such systemwide comparisons. You don’t have the typological choices at big box retailers.

 

[PeterA]

customers? which presumes some degree of reader's buying intent.

how many reading David's tt thread were/are considering buying any of those tt's? or even one of the brands? it was purely for fun and education as how i saw it.

all vintage......American Sound? Goldmund? Thorens? EMT? and this was quite a time prior to David bringing out the AS-2000.

One member here actually went to hear differences and make a purchase. But again, I just raised that example as one of the rare ones where a comparison of flagship models could be made. Yes, they were vintage and not readily available. But my point was that the comparison exists.

I have heard at a friend system over a short period of time, CAT amp and preamp compared to Pass and CH precision, all flagship combinations with the same speakers. I suspect such comparisons do happen in private settings.

I was also told by a dealer that he was told by a tube manufacturer that they would not allow him to sell Pass Labs if they wanted his tube amplifiers. I guess he did not want customers making direct comparisons.

One of the challenges is hearing different flagship products in different contexts so direct comparisons don’t really happen for all the reasons you so well explained.

 

[Lee]

Mike, I did that with two complete suites of electronics - phono, pre, amps: Pass versus Lamm. That direct comparison prompted the selling of an entire system and the purchase of an entirely new system all within about a month. I agree, lots of parts and effort. The shipping and selling was a massive effort but of course worth it in the end.

That’s impressive Peter.

 

[Lee]

I agree. When I made my comparisons It was with the entire suite of electronics, and I used the Lamm M1.1 solid-state amplifier appropriate for the Magico speakers. I then tried the Lamm ML2 which was wrong for the speaker, but gave me a sense of how it sounds in various different systems with different speakers. I then chose the SET amplifier and had to find the appropriate speakers.

You really have to compare amplifiers and speakers together. Rarely do you ever hear a Wilson or Magico with the SET you would use for a good horn system. You’re really comparing good amp speaker combinations or inappropriate pairings.

Maybe the case for high-end Audio is that there are more typologies available for making such systemwide comparisons. You don’t have the typological choices at big box retailers.

Amp and speaker combination is a critical piece ime.

 

[microstrip]

I agree. When I made my comparisons It was with the entire suite of electronics, and I used the Lamm M1.1 solid-state amplifier appropriate for the Magico speakers. I then tried the Lamm ML2 which was wrong for the speaker, but gave me a sense of how it sounds in various different systems with different speakers. I then chose the SET amplifier and had to find the appropriate speakers.

You really have to compare amplifiers and speakers together. Rarely do you ever hear a Wilson or Magico with the SET you would use for a good horn system. You’re really comparing good amp speaker combinations or inappropriate pairings.

Maybe the case for high-end Audio is that there are more typologies available for making such systemwide comparisons. You don’t have the typological choices at big box retailers.

Peter,

As you have been telling us for years, you simply followed DDK guidance. It is not the typical path of the great majority of the audiophiles.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

As you have been telling us for years, you simply followed DDK guidance. It is not the typical path of the great majority of the audiophiles.

I never suggested anything as typical and I don’t make statements about the great majority of Audio files. My comment is in the context of comparing high-quality components in one’s own system before buying. And in this case, it was an entire suite of electronics.

DDK introduced me to alternatives and offered options as a dealer. I heard four systems at his house. I asked if I could try specific electronics at my house with two different amplifiers. I listened and I decided. And when that decision was made, I selected the amplifiers and then had a number of speakers I could decide to buy that would meet the capabilities of the ML2 SET. Surely you know this from reading my system thread and commenting for years.

 

[Elliot G.]

You and Elliot need to be fair to me too. I have reviewed far more equipment favorably than the brands in my current systems (really some dozen or so by the way).

There are dominant brands but as a fan of hifi, I want new companies to win if they offer a great product. But I also respect established brands that offer great performance, great service, and great support. That's been my experience with Wilson, dCS, and Audio Research but I have also enjoyed gear from Sony, Schiit, Neve, Benchmark, Myth, Shunyata, Synergistic, Sonus Faber, iFi, Grado, Audeze, Astell & Kern, Noble, Ultimate Ears, and many others. And that is gear I own, not the other dozen or so reviews or trade show reports I have done of other brands over the years.

The Varese is the DAC to beat these days. It is a huge advance over what has come before. That was your exact quote! Lee.
BTW I dont have to be anything but true to myself. I take all these one man surveys as just that a one mans opinion based on a severly small sample size and with preferable bias. Its not personal you make it that way by your absolute statements.
You like it great, its the best youve heard great. The rest is total BS, gaslighting and hyperpole.
If you had a full Wadax and maybe a full MSB and Maybe a full Esoteric and maybe a full Taiko etc then your comments might hold some water other than a biased opinion of a survey of one person and one possible solution.

 

[Elliot G.]

like i did with my darTZeel<->Lamm<->VAC amps......although i did not have the preamps for the Lamm and VAC. had to buy the Lamm's and borrow the VAC's.

I actually shipped a full Wadax system to Mike, traveled out there , set the gear up in his home, and we listened to all the gear and hosted a group of listeners of the few days so that Mike could make an educated choice.
We did the work he made the choice. There is a difference in this versus a one mans one product decision