The Case for High End Audio

[Elliot G.]

I'm just calling the balls and strikes as I see them Elliot.

I listen to wide variety of products at dealers, shows, and homes.

actually you arent! You a hobbiest that owns some stuff and you like it. If you truly understood that products do not exist in a vacuum then you might do a better job of umpiring. You have no clue what a Wadax does by drive buys at a show. The same way I would have no idea of what a dCS varese does in the same circumstances. There are so many factors and pieces that are mixed that all one can say is the system you liked or didnt.
You have a reputation on this site and you continue to reinforce it

 

[microstrip]

(-...) A great performing product ( we can argue about this Micro) that has terrrible customer service, or terrible reliability, or looks like crap, or is packed horribly, or is very confusing to use, that has no demand on the second hand market are for me NOT a high end product they are just expensive esoteric.

Ok, just semantics, no need arguing - I see your point. I wanted a concept, you stick to real products being sold.

I wanted something that, for example, can include DIY or vintage non supported top audio products.

And yes, I fully agree on the importance of your new point - "has no demand on the second hand market".

 

[Jack Pot]

I think it was playing at munich 2024 Kharma room / Veyron It did sound promising . Best DCS product i have heard over the years was always the rossini ( and predeccesor ) Not the big dollar multistack

Im not disputing that anyone can claim anything. The idea of only one item on my list making something high end is IMO absurd. The same thing with the price. High End IMO is more than just one or two things . There was a video recently I saw by the head of Hermes talking about quality and the difference between expensive and costly. He expressed this very well. A great performing product ( we can argue about this Micro) that has terrrible customer service, or terrible reliability, or looks like crap, or is packed horribly, or is very confusing to use, that has no demand on the second hand market are for me NOT a high end product they are just expensive esoteric.

I think it was playing at munich 2024 Kharma room / Veyron
It did sound promising .
Best DCS product i have heard over the years was always the rossini ( and predeccesor )
Not the big dollar multistack

Then you did not listen to an AB comparison between Rossini and Vivaldi. Given the huge price difference, I did. I traveled to dCS in Cambridge (UK) and we compared the product lines, swapping them out on the same rack, with all other equipment (Transparent cables, d'Agostino power amps, Wilson Audio loudspeakers) remaining the same. Rossini sounded amazing. What could Vivaldi possibly improve? In fact, everything. Starting with the scale and depth of the presentation. I bought the Vivaldi stack. However, when installed at home and compared to my vinyl setup, Vivaldi fell short by a serious margin. I gave up on digital. That was in 2016. Then, 2 years ago, the Vivaldi Apex upgrade came along. I gave it a try. A monumental improvement. Then I upgraded my cables loom. Better still. I spare you many more tweaks. Finally, I installed a Nordost QB10 distribution block. We are getting there. However, when I removed the rubber discs from under the feet of the QB10, digital sound finally came of age! I mean, this verges on the absurd. But this is the reality of digital how I experienced it. Digital is very sensitive to power management, racks, vibrations and resonances. And a 2012(!) design - with one upgrade in 2022 - can still deliver the goods if properly supported (what I call the Hifi "infrastructure"). Of course, my vinyl setup also improved quite dramatically, but from a position of already excellent sound presentation. It remains the reference, but digital has almost closed the gap. What is the moral of this story? Invest in Hifi infrastructure! It is the best audio investment you can make, especially if you can get in 2nd hand.
PS: for completion, I also auditioned Vivaldi's predecessor - Scarlatti - at home.

 

[Jack Pot]

Then you did not listen to an AB comparison between Rossini and Vivaldi. Given the huge price difference, I did. I traveled to dCS in Cambridge (UK) and we compared the product lines, swapping them out on the same rack, with all other equipment (Transparent cables, d'Agostino power amps, Wilson Audio loudspeakers) remaining the same. Rossini sounded amazing. What could Vivaldi possibly improve? In fact, everything. Starting with the scale and depth of the presentation. I bought the Vivaldi stack. However, when installed at home and compared to my vinyl setup, Vivaldi fell short by a serious margin. I gave up on digital. That was in 2016. Then, 2 years ago, the Vivaldi Apex upgrade came along. I gave it a try. A monumental improvement. Then I upgraded my cables loom. Better still. I spare you many more tweaks. Finally, I installed a Nordost QB10 distribution block. We are getting there. However, when I removed the rubber discs from under the feet of the QB10, digital sound finally came of age! I mean, this verges on the absurd. But this is the reality of digital how I experienced it. Digital is very sensitive to power management, racks, vibrations and resonances. And a 2012(!) design - with one upgrade in 2022 - can still deliver the goods if properly supported (what I call the Hifi "infrastructure"). Of course, my vinyl setup also improved quite dramatically, but from a position of already excellent sound presentation. It remains the reference, but digital has almost closed the gap. What is the moral of this story? Invest in Hifi infrastructure! It is the best audio investment you can make, especially if you can get in 2nd hand.
PS: for completion, I also auditioned Vivaldi's predecessor - Scarlatti - at home.

I forgot to add: and buy from companies which support their products throughout the years (which ties in with what is being discussed in this thread).

 

[Lee]

actually you arent! You a hobbiest that owns some stuff and you like it. If you truly understood that products do not exist in a vacuum then you might do a better job of umpiring. You have no clue what a Wadax does by drive buys at a show. The same way I would have no idea of what a dCS varese does in the same circumstances. There are so many factors and pieces that are mixed that all one can say is the system you liked or didnt.
You have a reputation on this site and you continue to reinforce it

There is no reason to make this personal Elliot. I am only expressing my opinion.

 

[Lee]

Then you did not listen to an AB comparison between Rossini and Vivaldi. Given the huge price difference, I did. I traveled to dCS in Cambridge (UK) and we compared the product lines, swapping them out on the same rack, with all other equipment (Transparent cables, d'Agostino power amps, Wilson Audio loudspeakers) remaining the same. Rossini sounded amazing. What could Vivaldi possibly improve? In fact, everything. Starting with the scale and depth of the presentation. I bought the Vivaldi stack. However, when installed at home and compared to my vinyl setup, Vivaldi fell short by a serious margin. I gave up on digital. That was in 2016. Then, 2 years ago, the Vivaldi Apex upgrade came along. I gave it a try. A monumental improvement. Then I upgraded my cables loom. Better still. I spare you many more tweaks. Finally, I installed a Nordost QB10 distribution block. We are getting there. However, when I removed the rubber discs from under the feet of the QB10, digital sound finally came of age! I mean, this verges on the absurd. But this is the reality of digital how I experienced it. Digital is very sensitive to power management, racks, vibrations and resonances. And a 2012(!) design - with one upgrade in 2022 - can still deliver the goods if properly supported (what I call the Hifi "infrastructure"). Of course, my vinyl setup also improved quite dramatically, but from a position of already excellent sound presentation. It remains the reference, but digital has almost closed the gap. What is the moral of this story? Invest in Hifi infrastructure! It is the best audio investment you can make, especially if you can get in 2nd hand.
PS: for completion, I also auditioned Vivaldi's predecessor - Scarlatti - at home.

I agree with this. The Vivaldi stack is, sadly for me, a nice upgrade over the Rossini stack.

 

[Lee]

I forgot to add: and buy from companies which support their products throughout the years (which ties in with what is being discussed in this thread).

Indeed. Something that Wilson and dCS do an exemplary job of.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Indeed. Something that Wilson and dCS do an exemplary job of.

Lee but you have to give other brands a fair chance.
Using 5 brands as a constant mantra sounds a bit narrow minded.
Whats the goal here ..... having just 5 brands left in the field ... sounds pretty boring to me
May be you have a vested commercial interest in the brands , i dont know .

@ Jack P I ve been listening to DCS products over a 22 year time span.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Ok, just semantics, no need arguing - I see your point. I wanted a concept, you stick to real products being sold.

I wanted something that, for example, can include DIY or vintage non supported top audio products.

And yes, I fully agree on the importance of your new point - "has no demand on the second hand market".

Elliot sees the retail (product to sell/represent) side, you and i see the consumer (total system experience) side. both are legit based on our viewpoint. dealers have only marginal influence on the total system result. some of course, more than others. at the tip top dealers don't have much influence at all. unless those systems push their owners to become dealers.

 

[Elliot G.]

There is no reason to make this personal Elliot. I am only expressing my opinion.

then stop making statements that are just your opinion as facts and absolute's. Its not personal its just that you are a person and that is your personal opinion. You are not the voice of authority neither is anyone else.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot sees the retail (product to sell/represent) side, you and i see the consumer (total system experience) side. both are legit based on our viewpoint. dealers have only marginal influence on the total system result. some of course, more than others. at the tip top dealers don't have much influence at all. unless those systems push their owners to become dealers.

I am also a consumer and in other fields the term high end means more than it is one thing. Hermes, Patek, Rolls etc are high end and it is way more than just one thing its the total package. That was my point and it is not singularly an audio point.
To be honest very few if any audio companies meet the standards IMO

 

[Elliot G.]

One last thing the choice that one dCS product is better than its previous one is wonderful and what any consumer would expect. If they produced worse gear it would seriously hurt them
This however has zero to do with how it relates to other companies making product. So proclainming that this product is better than everything because it is better than its old stuff is not truly saying much, other than they improved over their previous items.
For the record I am not putting down anything but saying because A is better than B therefore its better than everything is not logic. Just Hyperbole

 

[Lee]

Lee but you have to give other brands a fair chance.
Using 5 brands as a constant mantra sounds a bit narrow minded.
Whats the goal here ..... having just 5 brands left in the field ... sounds pretty boring to me
May be you have a vested commercial interest in the brands , i dont know .

@ Jack P I ve been listening to DCS products over a 22 year time span.

You and Elliot need to be fair to me too. I have reviewed far more equipment favorably than the brands in my current systems (really some dozen or so by the way).

There are dominant brands but as a fan of hifi, I want new companies to win if they offer a great product. But I also respect established brands that offer great performance, great service, and great support. That's been my experience with Wilson, dCS, and Audio Research but I have also enjoyed gear from Sony, Schiit, Neve, Benchmark, Myth, Shunyata, Synergistic, Sonus Faber, iFi, Grado, Audeze, Astell & Kern, Noble, Ultimate Ears, and many others. And that is gear I own, not the other dozen or so reviews or trade show reports I have done of other brands over the years.

 

[Lee]

One last thing the choice that one dCS product is better than its previous one is wonderful and what any consumer would expect. If they produced worse gear it would seriously hurt them
This however has zero to do with how it relates to other companies making product. So proclainming that this product is better than everything because it is better than its old stuff is not truly saying much, other than they improved over their previous items.
For the record I am not putting down anything but saying because A is better than B therefore its better than everything is not logic. Just Hyperbole

When you read my review of the Varese, you will see that I put in a caveat that I did not have the same system with other competing products so no fair comparison was possible. That was done a few days ago. The other caveat is that it was done listening to a dealer's system, albeit one I am extremely familiar with.

The economics of our tiny industry are such that it is rare, if not impossible, to do apples to apples comparisons between two very expensive flagships.

One of many reasons to use reviews as a guide for what to audition as opposed to what to buy.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The economics of our tiny industry are such that it is rare, if not impossible, to do apples to apples comparisons between two very expensive flagships.

it was a huge effort to be able to do my Wadax dac/server<->MSB/Taiko Extreme direct compare in my own system. and even then some dismissed it. the way the world goes.

sometimes we do see same brand old/new digital compares, dealer sponsored, but almost never across brands. once in a long while i read about dealers allowing a different brand side by side. or end users who have one then another. but two uber brands side by side is rare.

so we do the best we can.

 

[Lee]

it was a huge effort to be able to do my Wadax dac/server<->MSB/Taiko Extreme direct compare in my own system. and even then some dismissed it. the way the world goes.

sometimes we do see same brand old/new digital compares, dealer sponsored, but almost never across brands. once in a long while i read about dealers allowing a different brand side by side. or end users who have one then another. but two uber brands side by side is rare.

so we do the best we can.

The best outcome of these flagships is a free market that encourages competition. If the Varese does better the Wadax then that encourages Wadax to do even better and vice versa. Add in Esoteric, MSB, Lampizator, etc. and you wind up with better models (and hopefully in everyone's case a better upgrade path!) for fans of all brands.

Much like Ferrari has its rare and crazy expensive Dayton SP model, why not a half million dollar DAC if the market supports it? Keep pushing the envelope. Trickle the learning done to the stuff for mere mortals.

I am sure enjoying the sound of my Apex update. I smile every time I hear it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The best outcome of these flagships is a free market that encourages competition.

Like Telefunken M15 A and some good studers.....

There is no money in these items thats why they dont get promoted , so are magazines for ultimate SQ or the mighty dollar .
Having visited a lot of shows lately , magazines promote for a large part a skewed version of the musical truth

@ its mostly about machining / nice construction / carbon .....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The best outcome of these flagships is a free market that encourages competition. If the Varese does better the Wadax then that encourages Wadax to do even better and vice versa. Add in Esoteric, MSB, Lampizator, etc. and you wind up with better models (and hopefully in everyone's case a better upgrade path!) for fans of all brands.

i think that the manufacturers want to avoid direct compares. the downside risk is too great. which is why almost all mainstream reviews avoid them. and doing a head to head right, is not trivial. it's a serious undertaking especially trying to optimize everything.

for me it would never have happened except i heard the Wadax in Elliot's room prior so i was enough convinced to justify the effort to do the head to head. otherwise it would have been too much expense and effort to do. then i had to sell my MSB ahead of time too. it was a lot of dominos to fall right.

 

[PeterA]

it was a huge effort to be able to do my Wadax dac/server<->MSB/Taiko Extreme direct compare in my own system. and even then some dismissed it. the way the world goes.

sometimes we do see same brand old/new digital compares, dealer sponsored, but almost never across brands. once in a long while i read about dealers allowing a different brand side by side. or end users who have one then another. but two uber brands side by side is rare.

so we do the best we can.

Rare, but not impossible. That is why this sub forum on turntables is so interesting when combined with the various visitor reports.

Reference Turntable, The Step Beyond

Given the dominance of digital and all the new high end widgets showing incredible super powers perfecting “The Perfect Sound Forever” what’s the current resurgence of vinyl and turntables about? At every show one can see a plethora of new and old tables, arms, cartridges, phono stages, etc. in...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[PeterA]

i think that the manufacturers want to avoid direct compares. the downside risk is too great. which is why almost all mainstream reviews avoid them. and doing a head to head right, is not trivial. it's a serious undertaking especially trying to optimize everything.

for me it would never have happened except i heard the Wadax in Elliot's room prior so i was enough convinced to justify the effort to do the head to head. otherwise it would have been too much expense and effort to do. then i had to sell my MSB ahead of time too. it was a lot of dominos to fall right.

Mike, I did that with two complete suites of electronics - phono, pre, amps: Pass versus Lamm. That direct comparison prompted the selling of an entire system and the purchase of an entirely new system all within about a month. I agree, lots of parts and effort. The shipping and selling was a massive effort but of course worth it in the end.