The Case for High End Audio

[Ron Resnick]

I am writing a review today and tomorrow for Positive Feedback

congratulations, Lee!

 

[Lee]

I see you on the masthead -- congratulations.

Thanks Tim. Lots more reviews in the pipeline.

 

[Elliot G.]

Why don’t you deliver the Wadax then to me for a listen?

Why don’t you deliver the Wadax then to me for a listen?

First of all I am a dealer not the Manufacturer. Secondly , no offense meant, but why do I care about what your opinion is? Thirdly I am in business and so there is no way that I benefit at all from doing what you asked. In fact this is a huge issue with the Industry, the issue that what reviewers think, and they are not costumers, they do not pay for product, I as a dealer don't make a cent from any of that, would go out of my way to loan you 375,000 worth of audio gear to see if you like it. WOW isnt that special!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I ll tell you what I'll rent it to you by the week. Contact me for pricing - Now put your money where your mouth is

 

[Lee]

congratulations, Lee!

Thanks Ron!

 

[Lee]

First of all I am a dealer not the Manufacturer. Secondly , no offense meant, but why do I care about what your opinion is? Thirdly I am in business and so there is no way that I benefit at all from doing what you asked. In fact this is a huge issue with the Industry, the issue that what reviewers think, and they are not costumers, they do not pay for product, I as a dealer don't make a cent from any of that, would go out of my way to loan you 375,000 worth of audio gear to see if you like it. WOW isnt that special!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I ll tell you what I'll rent it to you by the week. Contact me for pricing

actually you arent! You a hobbiest that owns some stuff and you like it. If you truly understood that products do not exist in a vacuum then you might do a better job of umpiring. You have no clue what a Wadax does by drive buys at a show. The same way I would have no idea of what a dCS varese does in the same circumstances. There are so many factors and pieces that are mixed that all one can say is the system you liked or didnt.
You have a reputation on this site and you continue to reinforce it

You can’t complain about my not being able to do a side by side comparison if you are not willing to facilitate one. You and Chris usually drive up to Chicago for Axpona and go through Atlanta. Why not stop here and we will hook up the Wadax and have a listen for a half day, then you and Chris can go on your way to Axpona?

 

[Elliot G.]

This is kinda the norm for top-line products. You won't see Magico in a Wilson showroom or vice versa. There may be exceptions for mid-tier, but it is a predicate of the manufacturer-dealer relationship.

Tima, Why would a dealer even want to do that? The dealers are in business. They are in business to make money and turn a profit so that they can continue being in business. The cost of being a Wilson dealer for example is in the 6 figures, Magico the same how would woould anyone get ROI from those things not even counting the floor space and related equipment to go with all of these top line products. There is an old retail expression that everyone wants the best product, the best price and the best service now choose two!!! I realize Audiophiles want to hear and touch everything but having many expensive competing products only makes more work, allocating more resources, taking up more space and making less or no money. The memebers of this forum are hobbiests the dealers are in business and need to turn a profit to keep the lights on and feed thier families.
There is truly something wrong with how people look at the Audio Industry in general. Dealers are not non profit lending libraries. SHOCKING but true.

 

[Elliot G.]

You can’t complain about my not being able to do a side by side comparison if you are not willing to facilitate one. You and Chris usually drive up to Chicago for Axpona and go through Atlanta. Why not stop here and we will hook up the Wadax and have a listen for a half day, then you and Chris can go on your way to Axpona?

Im not complaining since I dont care if you get to do that. Its of no interest to me period. You made statements as if you had and you didnt. YOu seem to miss the point Lee I dont care about your opinion I only care that the facts and truth are posted and the BS be called out. YOu like 5 products that you own...WHOOPIE congratulations.
If you want a Wadax then call Wadax I am not the company and I am not spending a nickle for your thoughts as they don't have any influence on me or my business.

 

[PeterA]

First of all I am a dealer not the Manufacturer. Secondly , no offense meant, but why do I care about what your opinion is? Thirdly I am in business and so there is no way that I benefit at all from doing what you asked. In fact this is a huge issue with the Industry, the issue that what reviewers think, and they are not costumers, they do not pay for product, I as a dealer don't make a cent from any of that, would go out of my way to loan you 375,000 worth of audio gear to see if you like it. WOW isnt that special!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I see your point, but I’m not sure dealers don’t benefit somewhat from good reviews. I agree that manufacturers generally provide review samples to reviewers, not the dealers, but I recently read a review of the Magico M9 that was done in a dealership.

I would think that dealers would benefit from a good review. We went car shopping last weekend. We visited some of the dealers only because we read reviews comparing various car brands. Those dealers benefited from us walking through their doors and taking a test drive.

 

[Elliot G.]

I see your point, but I’m not sure dealers don’t benefit somewhat from good reviews. I agree that manufacturers generally provide review samples to reviewers, not the dealers, but I recently read a review of the Magico M9 that was done in a dealership.

I would think that dealers would benefit from a good review. We went car shopping last weekend. We visited some of the dealers only because we read reviews comparing various car brands. Those dealers benefited from us walking through their doors and taking a test drive.

PeterA, with all due respect your a consumer and a hobbiest. You know very little about the business of audio and the economics. It is insane to think that I as a dealer would beneifit by giving my 370k worth of gear to Lee Scoggins to listen too. The value of reviews is way over rated SORRY. The recognition of a brand is the only value left of magazines IMO and there is virtually no sell through based on reviews for the last ten years or more. This is particuly true on 6 figure or more products
Its nice that you read a review in a dealers about a speaker that is NOT the same thing as we are discussing. Taking those M9's to Lee Scoggins so he can compare them to his Wilsons ( that he loves and stand up for daily) and him expressing his opinion in your opinion would you pay for the transportation, delivery and set up of these in his home if it was your money? YOUR money out of your pocket when you are only a dealer in Boston and this is in Georgia?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You can’t complain about my not being able to do a side by side comparison if you are not willing to facilitate one. You and Chris usually drive up to Chicago for Axpona and go through Atlanta. Why not stop here and we will hook up the Wadax and have a listen for a half day, then you and Chris can go on your way to Axpona?

Lee, dealers do what helps their bottom line. with your dCS bias what is in it for Elliot? nothing.....just a lot of grief. you have zero history of very high level digital reviewing so that sort of compare for you is not even something that makes sense. maybe Harley or Valin might be able to pull that off but they don't do head to head compares. for a good reason. it would bite the hand that feeds them.

so the idea is all nonsense.

why doesn't dCS deliver their complete Varese stack to my door step to compare to my Wadax set-up? because it would not help them, and might hurt them. the only way that happens is if a Wadax stack owner has a sincere interest in acquiring a Varese stack and a dealer makes it happen with a profit motive involved. which is exactly what happened with me and the MSB/Taiko<->Wadax compare. this is not that.

find another bone to chew on.

 

[Rt66indierock]

PeterA, with all due respect your a consumer and a hobbiest. You know very little about the business of audio and the economics. It is insane to think that I as a dealer would beneifit by giving my 370k worth of gear to Lee Scoggins to listen too. The value of reviews is way over rated SORRY. The recognition of a brand is the only value left of magazines IMO and there is virtually no sell through based on reviews for the last ten years or more. This is particuly true on 6 figure or more products
Its nice that you read a review in a dealers about a speaker that is NOT the same thing as we are discussing. Taking those M9's to Lee Scoggins so he can compare them to his Wilsons ( that he loves and stand up for daily) and him expressing his opinion in your opinion would you pay for the transportation, delivery and set up of these in his home if it was your money? YOUR money out of your pocket when you are only a dealer in Boston and this is in Georgia?

Taking your point further, why give anything to Lee?

One of the things most entertaining about coming back to the high-end audio world in 2016 is how unknowledgeable people are about the business of audio.

 

[Elliot G.]

Lee, dealers do what helps their bottom line. with your dCS bias what is in it for Elliot? nothing.....just a lot of grief. you have zero history of very high level digital reviewing so that sort of compare for you is not even something that makes sense. maybe Harley or Valin might be able to pull that off but they don't do head to head compares. for a good reason. it would bite the hand that feeds them.

so the idea is all nonsense.

why doesn't dCS deliver their complete Varese stack to my door step to compare to my Wadax set-up? because it would not help them, and might hurt them. the only way that happens is if a Wadax stack owner has a sincere interest in acquiring a Varese stack and a dealer makes it happen with a profit motive involved. which is exactly what happened with me and the MSB/Taiko<->Wadax compare. this is not that.

find another bone to chew on.

Mike I offered to rent it to him if its so important to him? All these guys want want they think is cool as long as its free and everyone else pays of it and they dont suffer inconvenience. I find it incredible evey day that people expect dealers to work for free

.

 

[Elliot G.]

Taking your point further, why give anything to Lee?

One of the things most entertaining about coming back to the high-end audio world in 2016 is how unknowledgeable people are about the business of audio.

BOOM! Thank you

 

[Porsche]

anyone spending considerable amount of money on a product and takes reviews/reviewers opinion is a moron, if you are serious about spending $10k or $50k etc on a component its worth taking a personal listen, period, you can pretty much get a plane ticket for anywhere in the US for less than $1k roundtrip, money well spent if you are a serious buyer. I have never bought a audio product or a car or any expensive product because of what I read

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I see your point, but I’m not sure dealers don’t benefit somewhat from good reviews. I agree that manufacturers generally provide review samples to reviewers, not the dealers, but I recently read a review of the Magico M9 that was done in a dealership.

I would think that dealers would benefit from a good review. We went car shopping last weekend. We visited some of the dealers only because we read reviews comparing various car brands. Those dealers benefited from us walking through their doors and taking a test drive.

in terms of $300k-$500k digital stacks or even turntables, a degree of mystery and wonder has more value than a bunch of casual reviews. those products desire a sense of 'hard to get'.

typical automobiles are more commodities and so more mentions and observations are positives.

it's maybe a fine line between the two ideas......what does it take for something to make a product more aspirational?

 

[Elliot G.]

anyone spending considerable amount of money on a product and takes reviews/reviewers opinion is a moron, if you are serious about spending $10k or $50k etc on a component its worth taking a personal listen, period, you can pretty much get a plane ticket for anywhere in the US for less than $1k roundtrip, money well spent if you are a serious buyer. I have never bought a audio product or a car or any expensive product because of what I read

Me being an old old guy can say that pack in the 70's and early 80's reviews had incredibl;e power and promoted many sales. This however was a long time ago. There was a tenth of the product available now, There was a tenth of the retail outlets. There was no internet. There were only a few reviewers and those reviewers had more power. This lasted for a reasonable period of time but those days are long gone. One issue with the Industry is they keep trying to do the same thing over and over expecting the results to go back to the HP and GH days. They didnt and they wont.
HP was capable of writing a review and moving a lot of gear. There were fewer products and only a few reviews and financially the stuff was WAY more affordable. Things like a Black Widow tone arm cost 200 bucks, not cds, no streaming just records, the radio and some little tape.
Very very different times.

 

[Porsche]

Me being an old old guy can say that pack in the 70's and early 80's reviews had incredibl;e power and promoted many sales. This however was a long time ago. There was a tenth of the product available now, There was a tenth of the retail outlets. There was no internet. There were only a few reviewers and those reviewers had more power. This lasted for a reasonable period of time but those days are long gone. One issue with the Industry is they keep trying to do the same thing over and over expecting the results to go back to the HP and GH days. They didnt and they wont.
HP was capable of writing a review and moving a lot of gear. There were fewer products and only a few reviews and financially the stuff was WAY more affordable. Things like a Black Widow tone arm cost 200 bucks, not cds, no streaming just records, the radio and some little tape.
Very very different times.

reviewers of the 70/80/90s where more reputable than every YouTuber that has an opinion and the new generation of reviewers, like I said, plane ticket is cheap and no ones opinion is more important than my own when it comes to spending MY money

 

[Elliot G.]

in terms of $300k-$500k digital stacks or even turntables, a degree of mystery and wonder has more value than a bunch of casual reviews. those products desire a sense of 'hard to get'.

typical automobiles are more commodities and so more mentions and observations are positives.

it's maybe a fine line between the two ideas......what does it take for something to make a product more aspirational?

Cars and Watches etc have status attached. They have a cool factor, they have sex appeal. Audio virually none. A Wadax isnt getting you laid!
Mike they also are easily disposable and Audio isnt.
Audio has become a collection of opinions and in the end the only opinion that matters is the guys who buys it

 

[Salectric]

“There was a tenth of the retail outlets.” I’m not sure what you mean by that. Back in the 1970s and into the 80s, there were brick and mortar stereo stores in practically every town. Today probably well under 10% of the total back then, maybe more like 1%.

 

[Elliot G.]

reviewers of the 70/80/90s where more reputable than every YouTuber that has an opinion and the new generation of reviewers, like I said, plane ticket is cheap and no ones opinion is more important than my own when it comes to spending MY money

Porsche, Harry was my mentor and my friend. He took all of us on a journey for many years. He had his flaws and at the end maybe he was a shell of himself but the first 20 -30 issues of the Absolute SOund were for me inspirational and educational. I learned a lot and had a load of fun.They sit on my desk as I speak. Having said that Harry's reviews were great but I always had my system at home and the systems I curated at Lyric and I alwyas did my own listening as HP didnt have everything and we still had different teastes and expectations. Then I was purely rock and he was purely Classical. I think that without the review process culling the heard all the process still falls on the buyer and perhaps that is the way is should always be.