The Case for High End Audio

[PeterA]

Glad you told them to F off. I’m originally from Philly so that’s actually a perfectly acceptable way to say good bye to someone. I do understand your points. As a consumer of course you understand that I want the best way to decide between A and B to be as simple and accurate as possible. Different stores, different electronics different set up philosophies makes it almost impossible to really understand the contribution of just the speaker to the sound I am hearing. Also I am relying on memory. As a hobbyist/consumer I love the idea of being able to hear 2-3 great speaker options in one place. I accept that the financial realities makes this difficult and even unwise in some cases but it also makes a truly informed decision by me more difficult.

This is a good example of where the interests of the consumer do not always align with the interests of the dealer. It is too bad, but I appreciate the economic and business realities. The hobbyist does what he can to navigate the choices and do what he thinks is best for him, and the dealer does the same. Likewise for the magazines and the forums.

 

[PeterA]

When I was CEO at Nextscreen, I observed the following:

1. Most manufacturers mentioned that our reviews still move a lot of their product, both for The Absolute Sound and hifi+.
2. Most manufacturers fought to be on the cover. Sometimes it got ugly. Lots of politics.
3. Many mentioned the shift to digital and often we would shift some paper dollars to online dollars.
4. When we did the pop-up sweepstakes events on the website, we saw massive associated sales.

I'm sorry Gobel didn't see an increase in sales but I would guess that was due to the factors of price and how that specific brand is perceived. It could have been general economic conditions at the time as well. I want to see Oliver and team do well.

Did Elliot say that Gobel did not see an increase in sales after that recent review in TAS, or did he say that his dealership did not see an increase in sales? You should call Oliver and get his take on it too.

 

[Lee]

Let me give you an example of when reviews worked. I was on HP's listening panel. I used to go to Sea Cliff a few times a month and particularly when HP found something he was excited about. I knew when I got a call that he wanted me to come have dinner that I was going to see and hear something new. I went over one evening and he had installed the Infinity Black Widow tone arm. He loved it, It sounded great that night and the system was cooking. I went home and the next day I called Arnie Nudell at Infinity who were bringing in the arm and asked AN how many he had in or coming in. He told me 200. I bought them all. The review came out months later and we were the only ones that had them. The phones rang off the hook. Contrast a while ago my speakers the Gobel Divin Noblesse was on the front Cover of TAS with a major review and pictures etc.
The result from the magazine , if I am totally honest ZILCH, I guess it helped bring th e brand to many people but it sold nothing, it didnt make the phone ring it did nothing tangable. Truth

@PeterA Here is what he wrote. My read was the brand in general but it's not clear.

 

[PeterA]

@PeterA Here is what he wrote. My read was the brand in general but it's not clear.

I see what you mean Lee, but he did say it did not make the phone ring, it did nothing tangible. I presume he is talking about his phone at his dealership.

 

[Lee]

I see what you mean Lee, but he did say it did not make the phone ring, it did nothing tangible. I presume he is talking about his phone at his dealership.

One measure of whether advertising in print magazines or online magazines is effective (Stereophile and TAS have both) is whether manufacturers continue to buy. They are still buying. They still want the cover.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't have any bias against Wadax. In fact, I have expressed to Elliot and Brandon my strong interest in reviewing the Wadax Studio. I even reached out to Brandon who came through Atlanta a few weeks ago. I think if they can get a lot of the Wadax reference sound into a $60K all in one then that would be great.

Also, I have written about how great the sound is that Elliot gets in his rooms several times based on my listening at Axpona. And I have been a long-term fan of Oliver at Gobel and his products.

This doesn't make sense because in my post, I offered an essentially free path for Elliot to bring it by for a listen. My suggestion was a stop by in Atlanta when he is on his way to Axpona in Chicago. In the past he has gone through here and that's how we handled some Gobel cables which were in for a listen.

Lee,

maybe someone out there sees you as a digital reviewer expert. maybe they don't. not for me to say. did dCS trust you with a Varese stack?

i'm not a reviewer, neither do i manage reviewers. i'm only a consumer. but my guess is that manufacturers and distributors give much thought to who gets to review gear, so do the media decision makers. those are the people you should ask. you making a case to Elliot as a Wadax dealer is misplaced. Elliot has a job to do, which is not scratching your itch.

OTOH be serious about buying the Wadax, and now Elliot might be interested. i have no idea about you and Elliot and Gobel cables. Elliot is a distributor for Gobel, but only a Wadax dealer. or what that has to do with this situation. sounds like you have not convinced Elliot to stop by, and more push about it likely convinces him more not to do it.

sound like he is playing it about right. he should stay in his lane and the juice is not worth the squeeze for him.

 

[tima]

One measure of whether advertising in print magazines or online magazines is effective (Stereophile and TAS have both) is whether manufacturers continue to buy. They are still buying. They still want the cover.

And they continue to submit product for review. I have readers tell me that a review was one factor in their decision to buy. Manufacturers, dealers less so but some do, often list product reviews on their Web sites.

Bendingwaveusa.com proudly lists show awards given to it by review Web sites. The Göebel Web site lists reviews and show awards.

 

[Elliot G.]

Bendingwaveusa.com proudly lists show awards given to it by review Web sites. The Göebel Web site lists reviews and show awards

First of all I speak for me and me alone.I do not as all of the review people here take a very small sample and present it as fact. Heresay that some random consumer said this or that is meaningless when one has to make decisions that costs thousands and tens of thousands of dollars. My observations and my business decisions and statements are based in facts that relate to me and my business PERIOD.

Just for more words of my Truth WBF has done more for me than all the magazines and shows. Thats my facts

 

[Elliot G.]

Bendingwaveusa.com proudly lists show awards given to it by review Web sites

I put content on my website. I paid for that content. You may not see it that way but I did. I paid for the shows, I took the time and paid the price to get my stuff reviewed therefore I list the result. This was work I did for my business and the products I represent. Want to know something Tima and Lee?That effort uniquely qualifies me to understand what the results of these efforts brought.I can actually measure the results. I can quantify what I spent and see if the juice was worth the squeeze.
My running a business and me being responsible for the results gives me insight that a reviewer does not have about what works and what does not.

 

[Lee]

Lee,

maybe someone out there sees you as a digital reviewer expert. maybe they don't. not for me to say. did dCS trust you with a Varese stack?

i'm not a reviewer, neither do i manage reviewers. i'm only a consumer. but my guess is that manufacturers and distributors give much thought to who gets to review gear, so do the media decision makers. those are the people you should ask. you making a case to Elliot as a Wadax dealer is misplaced. Elliot has a job to do, which is not scratching your itch.

OTOH be serious about buying the Wadax, and now Elliot might be interested. i have no idea about you and Elliot and Gobel cables. Elliot is a distributor for Gobel, but only a Wadax dealer. or what that has to do with this situation. sounds like you have not convinced Elliot to stop by, and more push about it likely convinces him more not to do it.

sound like he is playing it about right. he should stay in his lane and the juice is not worth the squeeze for him.

Both David Steven and Scott Carpenter were enthusiastic about my reviewing the dCS Varese and I was excited to do the review since hearing it at Evolution right after I helped Scott set it up.

I wouldn’t say I am a technical expert on digital but I do have a strong background for reviewing DACs. Since 1990 when I first started helping Chesky Records on sessions and later on when Chesky starting releasing the first 24/96 recordings on DAD discs recorded and/or mastered by Jeremy Kipnis and Bob Katz which were ironically called Super Audio CDs, I have been involved in high resolution digital recording. I would estimate that I have worked on roughly 200 recordings, about 40 of which involved a split mic chain to 24/176 PCM and 2X DSD. Both sound great but I prefer DSD.

Since 1990, I have heard dozens of ADCs and many dozens of DACs. I have owned Benchmark, Sony, Mytek, dCS, PS Audio, Light Harmonic, Schiit Audio, Audioquest, Adcom, and several other brands. Given that I have my own live to two track recordings, that gives me an edge at judging the sound quality of DACs.

I feel given this background that I am qualified to review this level of digital playback gear.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Both David Steven and Scott Carpenter were enthusiastic about my reviewing the dCS Varese and I was excited since hearing it at Evolution right after I helped Scott set it up.

I wouldn’t say I am a technical expert on digital but I do have a strong background for reviewing DACs. Since 1990 when I first started helping Chesky Records on sessions and later on when Chesky starting releasing the first 24/96 recordings on DAD discs recorded and/or mastered by Jeremy Kipnis and Bob Katz which were ironically called Super Audio CDs, I have been involved in high resolution digital recording. I wouldn’t say estimate I have worked on roughly 200 recordings, about 40 of which involved a split mic chain to 24/176 PCM and 2X DSD. Both sound great but I prefer DSD.

there you go. best wishes with the review.

 

[Lee]

there you go. best wishes with the review.

Thank you.

 

[gleeds]

One member here actually went to hear differences and make a purchase. But again, I just raised that example as one of the rare ones where a comparison of flagship models could be made. Yes, they were vintage and not readily available. But my point was that the comparison exists.

I have heard at a friend system over a short period of time, CAT amp and preamp compared to Pass and CH precision, all flagship combinations with the same speakers. I suspect such comparisons do happen in private settings.

I was also told by a dealer that he was told by a tube manufacturer that they would not allow him to sell Pass Labs if they wanted his tube amplifiers. I guess he did not want customers making direct comparisons.

One of the challenges is hearing different flagship products in different contexts so direct comparisons don’t really happen for all the reasons you so well explained.

Peter,

I've been carefully following this thread and wanted to take a moment to share my thoughts, though I will elaborate more later on posts further down the chain. As a U.S. importer for several small, lesser-known brands, I sold my main line, WestminsterLab, directly to consumers for a few years to build awareness and drive sales.

We are now selectively adding dealers. For the record, I prefer if a dealer has a few other brands since I am confident in what we do, and comparisons are often beneficial. As a small-volume producer, Westminster does not want many retail partners, only those who are passionate and skilled professionals. Additionally, they should allow potential buyers to try it out in their system. Beyond just speakers and large amplifiers, this is relatively easy to do and helps the dealer and client invest time and financial resources to create better outcomes for both parties.

In my view, there needs to be a clear understanding between the parties regarding what the customer hopes to achieve and trust in each other's intentions. If a product isn't available locally, many dealers are willing to cover airfare if a purchase is made, and advance agreements can also be made in advance to determine price expectations. This ensures that consumers who expect a 20% discount off MSRP do not surprise the dealer after the fact, only to have the deal fall apart.

I know many people have made the journey there regarding David's operation in Utah, and he is always gracious and accommodating. It's important to note that most dealers cannot afford to be singularly focused on one vision of the "best sound"; they must offer a range of products to attract enough qualified customers and cover their overhead costs. Elliot deserves kudos for this, given his commitment to a select few brands that, in my opinion, in each case, provide consumers with a fantastic alternative to the heavily marketed, widely distributed brands.

Our criteria are straightforward: if a dealer does not genuinely believe in the product they sell and possesses extensive knowledge of music and high-end audio, they are not qualified to represent our product.

In full disclosure, Elliot and I have been discussing him becoming one of our select dealers for two brands I represent. One brand complements his main speaker line, and the other is different. As Sly Stone said - "different strokes for different folks"!

Regarding another thread concerning the high-end demise, an industry can grow only when manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and consumers' interests align. Ours is sadly well known for its lack of alignment and for "eating one's own."

PS Peter, perhaps you will invite me to hear your system one day while traveling in the east. And if you have a dealer in New England you trust, please do me the kindness of a PM to let me know.

 

[gleeds]

Lee,

maybe someone out there sees you as a digital reviewer expert. maybe they don't. not for me to say. did dCS trust you with a Varese stack?

i'm not a reviewer, neither do i manage reviewers. i'm only a consumer. but my guess is that manufacturers and distributors give much thought to who gets to review gear, so do the media decision makers. those are the people you should ask. you making a case to Elliot as a Wadax dealer is misplaced. Elliot has a job to do, which is not scratching your itch.

OTOH be serious about buying the Wadax, and now Elliot might be interested. i have no idea about you and Elliot and Gobel cables. Elliot is a distributor for Gobel, but only a Wadax dealer. or what that has to do with this situation. sounds like you have not convinced Elliot to stop by, and more push about it likely convinces him more not to do it.

sound like he is playing it about right. he should stay in his lane and the juice is not worth the squeeze for him.

Lee, I agree with Mike - there is zero incentive for Elliot to invest his time or engage in a shootout or debate over whether the product he represents or believes in is better than the one you do.

FYI, I have heard the Wadax twice, once at RH's and the other time at Bending Wave, and it was really good both times, albeit better at Elliot's with the new power supply setup and that crazy-looking optical cable. I have also listened to the new Lampizator/Taiko Olypus/XDMI pairing; both were sensational. The MSB Cascade in Munich was also there, as their room was across from Von Schweikert's. I have not heard from Varese, and I need to since both are at the Masters of the Universe level price-wise. If you are cool, I will call you when I arrive in Atlanta later this year for that purpose.

Having all these choices is positive for the industry because competition drives innovation, which, more often than not, trickles down to a price level that mere mortals can afford. However, having them all in one place at one time will not usually happen unless it is Axpona or Munich/Vienna, and even then, it's a shootout between wildly different systems under less-than-ideal conditions.

That said, most know your background with Next Screen and can likely go to your earlier reviews in print and online to see your preferences. I will say they have been remarkably consistent, so kudos to you. I wish you the best of luck starting your own YouTube channel. It's neither easy nor profitable, but it might be fun!

 

[Lee]

Lee, I agree with Mike - there is zero incentive for Elliot to invest his time or engage in a shootout or debate over whether the product he represents or believes in is better than the one you do.

FYI, I have heard the Wadax twice, once at RH's and the other time at Bending Wave, and it was really good both times, albeit better at Elliot's with the new power supply setup and that crazy-looking optical cable. I have also listened to the new Lampizator/Taiko Olypus/XDMI pairing; both were sensational. The MSB Cascade in Munich was also there, as their room was across from Von Schweikert's. I have not heard from Varese, and I need to since both are at the Masters of the Universe level price-wise. If you are cool, I will call you when I arrive in Atlanta later this year for that purpose.

Having all these choices is positive for the industry because competition drives innovation, which, more often than not, trickles down to a price level that mere mortals can afford. However, having them all in one place at one time will not usually happen unless it is Axpona or Munich/Vienna, and even then, it's a shootout between wildly different systems under less-than-ideal conditions.

That said, most know your background with Next Screen and can likely go to your earlier reviews in print and online to see your preferences. I will say they have been remarkably consistent, so kudos to you. I wish you the best of luck starting your own YouTube channel. It's neither easy nor profitable, but it might be fun!

Thanks Gary. Much appreciated.

I would be happy to host you at Evolution Hifi where I did the listening and where the Varese resides. You are also welcome to visit my listening room in the suburbs. The Varese was just introduced and well after Munich. The number of units is very limited now.

On a side note, HiFi News just published the first print review and it shares remarkably similar findings to the Positive Feedback review about to publish.

Jacob Heilbrunn is working on something for TAS.

 

[Elliot G.]

Lee, I agree with Mike - there is zero incentive for Elliot to invest his time or engage in a shootout or debate over whether the product he represents or believes in is better than the one you do.

Gary, I did not make any "absolute statement" about any DAC specifically one I have never heard. We have enough of the one man surveys. I respect all the top competitors and never have said anything about the dCS Varese since I have never heard it or even seen it. I have had the Vivaldi and MSB experiences in mutliple locations including my studio. I have done the work with the MSB at Mike Lavignes as well with a group of experienced listeners along with Mike and I. I spent a few days listening to his wonderful system with many sources and the results are listed on the site and not from me. I believe there are those that have the experience and the chops to evaluate such items and there are those that have not shown that they do. Making glorious statements with many name drops doesn't prove anything. I also do not represent Wadax except as being a dealer. I do not nor do I want to make any decisions on where their units go and to whom to review them, I would suspect that they have already thought this strategy out and made their own choices.
I personally feel no obligation to use my time and money to satisfy someones agenda that has no benefit in any way to me or my business.
Just becasue you put after your name reviewer after your name does not guarantee you access to everything you want. Wadax gear has been reviewed by Roy Gregory and Robert Harley and I suspect they will be the ones to handle the Studio Player however I do not have any information regarding this.
I will relay a story that when I first tried to get my speakers reviewed ( 2 years before they actually did) they had some "reviewer" I never heard off contact me . I had a chat with him and asked some basic questions before I was going to send them out. I asked about his room., the equipment that he would be using to evaluate them and some experience background. The answers were to me shocking so I told the person that this wasn't going to work for me and I explained that I would try to get the review from someone that was better qualifed and experienced such as RH who eventually did the review.
There is a process for a review, its a long process, its in my case was an expensive process and I was the interested party in the review as I import and distribute the product. As a dealer this process is not ours nor should it be. dCS, MSB, Wadax, Taiko etc get to determine what sin their best interest and to whom they want to send thier wares.
Like any industry to get to the good stuff you are going to have to earn the opportunity and I am not the one that determines that in this case. If I was the answer has already been conveyed.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

I've been carefully following this thread and wanted to take a moment to share my thoughts, though I will elaborate more later on posts further down the chain. As a U.S. importer for several small, lesser-known brands, I initially sold my main line, WestminsterLab, directly to consumers for a few years to build awareness and drive sales.

We are now selectively adding dealers. For the record, I prefer if a dealer has a few other brands since I am confident in what we do, and comparisons are often not always advantageous. As a small-volume producer, Westminster does not want many retail partners, only those who are passionate and skilled professionals. Additionally, they should allow potential buyers to try it out in their system. Beyond just speakers and large amplifiers, this is relatively easy to do and helps the dealer and client invest time and financial resources to create better outcomes for both parties.

In my view, there needs to be a clear understanding between the parties regarding what the customer hopes to achieve and trust in each other's intentions. If a product isn't available locally, many dealers are willing to cover airfare if a purchase is made, and advance agreements can also be made in advance to determine price expectations. This ensures that consumers who expect a 20% discount off MSRP do not surprise the dealer after the fact, only to have the deal fall apart.

I know many people have made the journey there regarding David's operation in Utah, and he is always gracious and accommodating. It's important to note that most dealers cannot afford to be singularly focused on one vision of the "best sound"; they must offer a range of products to attract enough qualified customers and cover their overhead costs. Elliot deserves kudos for this, given his commitment to a select few brands that, in my opinion, in each case, provide consumers with a fantastic alternative to the larger, heavily marketed brands.
The criteria are straightforward: if a dealer lacks a unique perspective, doesn't genuinely believe in the product they sell, and doesn't possess extensive knowledge of music and high-end audio, they are not qualified to represent our product.

In full disclosure, Elliot and I have been discussing him becoming one of our select dealers for two brands I represent. One brand complements his main speaker line, and the other is decidedly different—as Sly Stone said - different strokes for different folks!

Regarding another heavily posted thread concerning the high-end demise, an industry can grow only when manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and consumers' interests align. Ours is famous for its lack of alignment and for "eating one's own."

PS Peter, perhaps you will invite me to hear your system one day while traveling in the east. And if you have a dealer in New England you trust, please do me the kindness of a PM to let me know

Thank you gleeds. Your participation here and that of other members of the industry provides a good perspective perhaps somewhat different from that of a simple hobbyist like me.

Regarding local dealers in New England, I’m no longer qualified to make any recommendations as I have not gone to a dealer in years. Good luck with your various endeavors.

 

[gleeds]

Thank you gleeds. Your participation here and that of other members of the industry provides a good perspective perhaps somewhat different from that of a simple hobbyist like me.

Regarding local dealers in New England, I’m no longer qualified to make any recommendations as I have not gone to a dealer in years. Good luck with your various endeavors.

Peter, thank you. We can all make a positive contribution to the hobby we love. One of the things I appreciate most about this forum is the interaction and the learnings that result from it.

 

[tima]

I

First of all I speak for me and me alone.I do not as all of the review people here take a very small sample and present it as fact. Heresay that some random consumer said this or that is meaningless when one has to make decisions that costs thousands and tens of thousands of dollars. My observations and my business decisions and statements are based in facts that relate to me and my business PERIOD.

Just for more words of my Truth WBF has done more for me than all the magazines and shows. Thats my facts

I have no clue what you're trying to say or why your panties are in such a bundle. I suspect everyone reading this understands that audio dealers are in business to make a living -- it's not some revelation you're spreading. Given you are paying to be here, presumably you get some benefit. Don't forget to breathe.

 

[PeterA]

I


I have no clue what you're trying to say or why your panties are in such a bundle. I suspect everyone reading this understands that audio dealers are in business to make a living -- it's not some revelation you're spreading. Given you are paying to be here, presumably you get some benefit. Don't forget to breathe.

I presume all members of industry who are participating here are receiving some benefit. So do the hobbyists, but they are not selling anything or asked to pay to participate. We see when manufacturers discuss their products and dealers discuss the products they sell. Those perspectives are revealing and informative.