“There was a tenth of the retail outlets.” I’m not sure what you mean by that. Back in the 1970s and into the 80s, there were brick and mortar stereo stores in practically every town. Today probably well under 10% of the total back then, maybe more like 1%.
today there are home dealers, internet stores, trunk slammers, custom shops, audiogon, US audio Mart, You tube ebay etc.
When I started there were 3 dealers in NYC and 3 on Long Island. We did it all, We took trade ins, we did custom, we bought and sold. Today virtually none of that still exists . Audio was a total experience based business meaning people came to the stores and listend. Many parts of the country ( USA only i am familiar with) had little or no dealer or dealers that carried high end.Today is an entirely different universe
Lyric did back then millions of dollars outrside the US and outside NY from visitors. I think you are forgetting how few poroducts were availble versus today as well.
PeterA, with all due respect your a consumer and a hobbiest. You know very little about the business of audio and the economics. It is insane to think that I as a dealer would beneifit by giving my 370k worth of gear to Lee Scoggins to listen too. The value of reviews is way over rated SORRY. The recognition of a brand is the only value left of magazines IMO and there is virtually no sell through based on reviews for the last ten years or more. This is particuly true on 6 figure or more products
Its nice that you read a review in a dealers about a speaker that is NOT the same thing as we are discussing. Taking those M9's to Lee Scoggins so he can compare them to his Wilsons ( that he loves and stand up for daily) and him expressing his opinion in your opinion would you pay for the transportation, delivery and set up of these in his home if it was your money? YOUR money out of your pocket when you are only a dealer in Boston and this is in Georgia?
I agree that you would not benefit from this scenario Elliott. But I saw your written statement that dealers don’t benefit from reviews. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. Or you are correct that dealers receive no benefit from expensive products being reviewed. You’re right that I don’t know anything about your business. I thought I was careful not to say anything specific about your business.
I’m not suggesting you hand out that much gear nor did I suggest that in my post. And I do appreciate your participation in these discussions, along with other industry participants. You certainly add another perspective that is for sure.
i just l;ooked through the issue #5 that came out in TAS in Dec 1980. An issue I was on the back cover BTW lol.
There were around 25 High End dealers advertising in that book. I know back then there were a limited number of Levinson dealers ( maybe 10) Audio research Dealers ( maybe 20) only one authorized IRS dealer and so on ad so forth. Less products less outlets by miles
I agree that you would not benefit from this scenario Elliott. But I saw your written statement that dealers don’t benefit from reviews. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. Or you are correct that dealers receive no benefit from expensive products being reviewed. You’re right that I don’t know anything about your business. I thought I was careful not to say anything specific about your business.
I’m not suggesting you hand out that much gear nor did I suggest that in my post. And I do appreciate your participation in these discussions, along with other industry participants. You certainly add another perspective that is for sure.
Peter the power of the review has diminshed precipitously over the last 40 years. We remember fondly making eeasy sales from TAS reviews but that is definity not the case today. These reviews are like business cards and say HI we are here and they do reinforce some branding. They do not however make things fly off the shelf and the price of the gear dramamatically effects this in an inverse ratio. For example TAS just did a video of some new 650k speaker that was just introduced in NYC. No dealers, No Stores , No reputation nothing but a video. If TM said he saw God when listening to them this would not mean they would sell a damn pair. Theonly thing it did was make some people see the name and maybe a desire to look for it. The buying part I dont believe has any thing to do with that. No one gets sold a 650K speaker they have to want to buy it
I agree that you would not benefit from this scenario Elliott. But I saw your written statement that dealers don’t benefit from reviews. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. Or you are correct that dealers receive no benefit from expensive products being reviewed. You’re right that I don’t know anything about your business. I thought I was careful not to say anything specific about your business.
I’m not suggesting you hand out that much gear nor did I suggest that in my post. And I do appreciate your participation in these discussions, along with other industry participants. You certainly add another perspective that is for sure.
Let me give you an example of when reviews worked. I was on HP's listening panel. I used to go to Sea Cliff a few times a month and particularly when HP found something he was excited about. I knew when I got a call that he wanted me to come have dinner that I was going to see and hear something new. I went over one evening and he had installed the Infinity Black Widow tone arm. He loved it, It sounded great that night and the system was cooking. I went home and the next day I called Arnie Nudell at Infinity who were bringing in the arm and asked AN how many he had in or coming in. He told me 200. I bought them all. The review came out months later and we were the only ones that had them. The phones rang off the hook. Contrast a while ago my speakers the Gobel Divin Noblesse was on the front Cover of TAS with a major review and pictures etc.
The result from the magazine , if I am totally honest ZILCH, I guess it helped bring th e brand to many people but it sold nothing, it didnt make the phone ring it did nothing tangable. Truth
Let me give you an example of when reviews worked. I was on HP's listening panel. I used to go to Sea Cliff a few times a month and particularly when HP found something he was excited about. I knew when I got a call that he wanted me to come have dinner that I was going to see and hear something new. I went over one evening and he had installed the Infinity Black Widow tone arm. He loved it, It sounded great that night and the system was cooking. I went home and the next day I called Arnie Nudell at Infinity who were bringing in the arm and asked AN how many he had in or coming in. He told me 200. I bought them all. The review came out months later and we were the only ones that had them. The phones rang off the hook. Contrast a while ago my speakers the Gobel Divin Noblesse was on the front Cover of TAS with a major review and pictures etc.
The result from the magazine , if I am totally honest ZILCH, I guess it helped bring th e brand to many people but it sold nothing, it didnt make the phone ring it did nothing tangable. Truth
That’s an interesting story and I guess not very surprising. Very smart of you to act on that knowledge before it was public about the review and then to buy up all the available units to have a lock on the market. I can see how that would not be the case today. I wonder if any tone arm company could sell 200 tone arms in the US in one year these days.
I’m not in the market for Audio gear anymore so I don’t read reviews or go to sows. I used to do both. I don’t know anything about the speakers you sell.
That’s an interesting story and I guess not very surprising. Very smart of you to act on that knowledge before it was public about the review and then to buy up all the available units to have a lock on the market. I can see how that would not be the case today. I wonder if any tone arm company could sell 200 tone arms in the US in one year these days.
I’m not in the market for Audio gear anymore so I don’t read reviews or go to sows. I used to do both. I don’t know anything about the speakers you sell.
That’s an interesting story and I guess not very surprising. Very smart of you to act on that knowledge before it was public about the review and then to buy up all the available units to have a lock on the market. I can see how that would not be the case today. I wonder if any tone arm company could sell 200 tone arms in the US in one year these days.
I’m not in the market for Audio gear anymore so I don’t read reviews or go to sows. I used to do both. I don’t know anything about the speakers you sell.
That’s an interesting story and I guess not very surprising. Very smart of you to act on that knowledge before it was public about the review and then to buy up all the available units to have a lock on the market. I can see how that would not be the case today. I wonder if any tone arm company could sell 200 tone arms in the US in one year these days.
I’m not in the market for Audio gear anymore so I don’t read reviews or go to sows. I used to do both. I don’t know anything about the speakers you sell.
Gobel makes some seriously good products but we start at 60 k a pair which is part of my point with reviews . Even if we make the worlds best speakers there are dozens of and dozens of options all of which are good .
High-end items stand as a testament to exceptional craftsmanship and durability, delivering lasting value over time. Embracing quality over quantity not only enhances our daily experiences but also promotes a sustainable and minimalist way of living. This thoughtful approach shifts us away from disposable consumerism, fostering a deeper appreciation for the things we truly value.
However, the high-end market isn’t immune to pitfalls. Many products are marketed as high-end but deliver mediocre performance at best, emphasizing style over substance. This highlights the importance of discerning quality and ensuring that what we invest in truly meets the standards of excellence it claims to represent.
I agree. Standing the test of time and offering lasting value should be attributes of high end items. Where I am conflicted is the idea of exceptional or best in class performance.
As an example back in the 70's McIntosh was a brand that exemplified exceptional craftsmanship, reliability, support and lasting value. Unfortunately their components were not always best in class performance wise and often didn't sound as good as the latest and greatest. So were they High End?
Given that McIntosh as an entity is still around today and most of the companies that produced the latest and greatest are not I would like to think they belong in the High End category.
Still the leading edge companies often pushed the performance envelope and had arguably better sound. Often they didn't prove to be as reliable so should they be considered as High End? Although they didn't provide lasting value as a component their approach eventually resulted in better sounding equipment for the industry in general.
Is their a definition of High End that would encompass both?
I agree. Standing the test of time and offering lasting value should be attributes of high end items. Where I am conflicted is the idea of exceptional or best in class performance.
As an example back in the 70's McIntosh was a brand that exemplified exceptional craftsmanship, reliability, support and lasting value. Unfortunately their components were not always best in class performance wise and often didn't sound as good as the latest and greatest. So were they High End?
Given that McIntosh as an entity is still around today and most of the companies that produced the latest and greatest are not I would like to think they belong in the High End category.
Still the leading edge companies often pushed the performance envelope and had arguably better sound. Often they didn't prove to be as reliable so should they be considered as High End? Although they didn't provide lasting value as a component their approach eventually resulted in better sounding equipment for the industry in general.
Is there a definition of High End that would encompass both?
You bring up a great point about how “high-end” can mean different things. McIntosh is a great example—it prioritized craftsmanship, reliability, and support, even if it didn’t always have the absolute best performance. That long-term value and influence certainly earn it a place in the high-end category.
At the same time, brands like Accuphase and Audio Note Japan have managed to combine performance with longevity, staying prestigious and respected to this day. On the flip side, some companies that pushed performance boundaries didn’t last long but still helped shape the industry with their innovations.
Maybe “high-end” isn’t just about one factor. It’s about a mix of performance, durability, and lasting impact—whether through consistent excellence or by pushing the envelope and inspiring others.
Tima, Why would a dealer even want to do that? The dealers are in business. They are in business to make money and turn a profit so that they can continue being in business. The cost of being a Wilson dealer for example is in the 6 figures, Magico the same how would woould anyone get ROI from those things not even counting the floor space and related equipment to go with all of these top line products. There is an old retail expression that everyone wants the best product, the best price and the best service now choose two!!! I realize Audiophiles want to hear and touch everything but having many expensive competing products only makes more work, allocating more resources, taking up more space and making less or no money. The memebers of this forum are hobbiests the dealers are in business and need to turn a profit to keep the lights on and feed thier families.
There is truly something wrong with how people look at the Audio Industry in general. Dealers are not non profit lending libraries. SHOCKING but true.
I understand your point Elliot but there are still places which do carry expensive highly competitive speakers "head to head". For example The Sound Environment carries both Wilson and Rockport. They will even give you their opinions as to which they prefer (at each level) if you ask. Goodwins still carries Magico and Rockport. The ROI of every individual business is different even within the same industry depending upon sales and floor planning. Maybe they are financially unwise and are leaving money on the table. I don't know. To some extent it must depend upon how deep your pockets are and what your mission is. Just like everything else.
I understand your point Elliot but there are still places which do carry expensive highly competitive speakers "head to head". For example The Sound Environment carries both Wilson and Rockport. They will even give you their opinions as to which they prefer (at each level) if you ask. Goodwins still carries Magico and Rockport. The ROI of every individual business is different even within the same industry depending upon sales and floor planning. Maybe they are financially unwise and are leaving money on the table. I don't know. To some extent it must depend upon how deep your pockets are and what your mission is. Just like everything else.
agreed and of course each to his own but you don't see Wilson/Magico very often at all and its mostly dollars. If a dealer can support lots of heavy stuff that is his choice and good for him however its uncommon. I have had these discussions with many speaker manufacturers who make high end gear and arent Wilson or Magico. I can say from experience that one major company told me ( back in the day when I did have a retail store) that if I carried another brand I could not have theirs. Oh and by the way I told them to F-off.
BTW in my experience from my own Brand it is difficult if not impossible to get a store to purchase my gear when they have 2-400k of speakers from another brand on the floor. Its not the sound or the quality its the money and the space. Personally I don't believe its good business either but that'smy opinion.
BTW in my experience from my own Brand it is difficult if not impossible to get a store to purchase my gear when they have 2-400k of speakers from another brand on the floor. Its not the sound or the quality its the money and the space. Personally I don't believe its good business either but that'smy opinion.
agreed and of course each to his own but you don't see Wilson/Magico very often at all and its mostly dollars. If a dealer can support lots of heavy stuff that is his choice and good for him however its uncommon. I have had these discussions with many speaker manufacturers who make high end gear and arent Wilson or Magico. I can say from experience that one major company told me ( back in the day when I did have a retail store) that if I carried another brand I could not have theirs. Oh and by the way I told them to F-off.
BTW in my experience from my own Brand it is difficult if not impossible to get a store to purchase my gear when they have 2-400k of speakers from another brand on the floor. Its not the sound or the quality its the money and the space. Personally I don't believe its good business either but that'smy opinion.
Glad you told them to F off. I’m originally from Philly so that’s actually a perfectly acceptable way to say good bye to someone. I do understand your points. As a consumer of course you understand that I want the best way to decide between A and B to be as simple and accurate as possible. Different stores, different electronics different set up philosophies makes it almost impossible to really understand the contribution of just the speaker to the sound I am hearing. Also I am relying on memory. As a hobbyist/consumer I love the idea of being able to hear 2-3 great speaker options in one place. I accept that the financial realities makes this difficult and even unwise in some cases but it also makes a truly informed decision by me more difficult.
Lee, dealers do what helps their bottom line. with your dCS bias what is in it for Elliot? nothing.....just a lot of grief. you have zero history of very high level digital reviewing so that sort of compare for you is not even something that makes sense. maybe Harley or Valin might be able to pull that off but they don't do head to head compares. for a good reason. it would bite the hand that feeds them.
so the idea is all nonsense.
why doesn't dCS deliver their complete Varese stack to my door step to compare to my Wadax set-up? because it would not help them, and might hurt them. the only way that happens is if a Wadax stack owner has a sincere interest in acquiring a Varese stack and a dealer makes it happen with a profit motive involved. which is exactly what happened with me and the MSB/Taiko<->Wadax compare. this is not that.
I don't have any bias against Wadax. In fact, I have expressed to Elliot and Brandon my strong interest in reviewing the Wadax Studio. I even reached out to Brandon who came through Atlanta a few weeks ago. I think if they can get a lot of the Wadax reference sound into a $60K all in one then that would be great.
Also, I have written about how great the sound is that Elliot gets in his rooms several times based on my listening at Axpona. And I have been a long-term fan of Oliver at Gobel and his products.
Lee, dealers do what helps their bottom line. with your dCS bias what is in it for Elliot? nothing.....just a lot of grief. you have zero history of very high level digital reviewing so that sort of compare for you is not even something that makes sense. maybe Harley or Valin might be able to pull that off but they don't do head to head compares. for a good reason. it would bite the hand that feeds them.
so the idea is all nonsense.
why doesn't dCS deliver their complete Varese stack to my door step to compare to my Wadax set-up? because it would not help them, and might hurt them. the only way that happens is if a Wadax stack owner has a sincere interest in acquiring a Varese stack and a dealer makes it happen with a profit motive involved. which is exactly what happened with me and the MSB/Taiko<->Wadax compare. this is not that.
This doesn't make sense because in my post, I offered an essentially free path for Elliot to bring it by for a listen. My suggestion was a stop by in Atlanta when he is on his way to Axpona in Chicago. In the past he has gone through here and that's how we handled some Gobel cables which were in for a listen.
I understand your point Elliot but there are still places which do carry expensive highly competitive speakers "head to head". For example The Sound Environment carries both Wilson and Rockport. They will even give you their opinions as to which they prefer (at each level) if you ask. Goodwins still carries Magico and Rockport. The ROI of every individual business is different even within the same industry depending upon sales and floor planning. Maybe they are financially unwise and are leaving money on the table. I don't know. To some extent it must depend upon how deep your pockets are and what your mission is. Just like everything else.
I was just getting to know Goodwin's High End when carried Wilson, Rockport, and Magico. They did a massive shootout between all three flagship speakers for a customer who travelled to hear all three. When the dust settled, they dropped Wilson and kept Magico and Rockport. This all happened in their big room. I wish I had been there.
When I auditioned their Magico Mini IIs and V2s, I also heard two other brands, all similarly priced. I also did shootouts with friends between amps and DACs at Goodwin's, all in the same room. They were very accommodating and basically left me alone to play my records, or two of us to play CDs. They also once carried Basis and SME turntables.
I guess they thought it was good for business at the time, but that was 10-15 years ago. I have no idea what that place is like today.
I see your point, but I’m not sure dealers don’t benefit somewhat from good reviews. I agree that manufacturers generally provide review samples to reviewers, not the dealers, but I recently read a review of the Magico M9 that was done in a dealership.
I would think that dealers would benefit from a good review. We went car shopping last weekend. We visited some of the dealers only because we read reviews comparing various car brands. Those dealers benefited from us walking through their doors and taking a test drive.
When I was CEO at Nextscreen, I observed the following:
1. Most manufacturers mentioned that our reviews still move a lot of their product, both for The Absolute Sound and hifi+.
2. Most manufacturers fought to be on the cover. Sometimes it got ugly. Lots of politics.
3. Many mentioned the shift to digital and often we would shift some paper dollars to online dollars.
4. When we did the pop-up sweepstakes events on the website, we saw massive associated sales.
I'm sorry Gobel didn't see an increase in sales but I would guess that was due to the factors of price and how that specific brand is perceived. It could have been general economic conditions at the time as well. I want to see Oliver and team do well.
