The Case for High End Audio

[tima]

I presume all members of industry who are participating here are receiving some benefit. So do the hobbyists, but they are not selling anything or asked to pay to participate. We see when manufacturers discuss their products and dealers discuss the products they sell. Those perspectives are revealing and informative.

There are a lot of dealers here and often they distribute something as well. Most work to keep their products in a positive light, and the opportunity to do this in any thread is a benefit that they pay to have. I have no problem with that as long as they self-disclose. Manufacturers who describe their products and the basis of their designs -- granted proprietary information limitations -- can be very insightful.

 

[Lee]

I presume all members of industry who are participating here are receiving some benefit. So do the hobbyists, but they are not selling anything or asked to pay to participate. We see when manufacturers discuss their products and dealers discuss the products they sell. Those perspectives are revealing and informative.

The highest value this forum can add is if people share honest opinions about what they hear. That way we learn what is the best and what are the best practices to get the best sound possible.

 

[Lee]

There are a lot of dealers here and often they distribute something as well. Most work to keep their products in a positive light, and the opportunity to do this in any thread is a benefit that they pay to have. I have no problem with that as long as they self-disclose. Manufacturers who describe their products and the basis of their designs -- granted proprietary information limitations -- can be very insightful.

To that end, a better path forward might have been for Javier to join and talk about the technology in the Wadax and what he feels the technical advantages are. I have asked in the past for more detail on this but have yet to receive anything.

We reviewers are trying to be fair to everyone and are just trying to understand how certain technologies relate to the good sound we hear.

Beyond technical points, it might also be the case that people like certain flavors of sound.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

To that end, a better path forward might have been for Javier to join and talk about the technology in the Wadax and what he feels the technical advantages are. I have asked in the past for more detail on this but have yet to receive anything.

We reviewers are trying to be fair to everyone and are just trying to understand how certain technologies relate to the good sound we hear.

Beyond technical points, it might also be the case that people like certain flavors of sound.

does Mr. dCS come and explain the ring dac or whatever secrets are in the Varese?

to me the why and how is never the issue to actual buyers, only the what.

it's the great unwashed that desire chapter and verse about the why and how so they can pretend they know better or find flaws in the tech. but they never buy anything in that value range. they eye appraised it based on the price already and their minds are closed. so i think staying away is the right play. let the dealers deal direct with flesh and blood customers. i can tell you that for me personally as a consumer of very spendy digital, i never got caught up in the technology other than to respond properly as best i could to questions, not for myself to be convinced of anything. not my deal. i listen.

the explanations as far as they go make sense, but i only understand on a surface level, not with any true depth, and i have no desire to dig deeper. i'd rather enjoy the listening.

 

[Lee]

does Mr. dCS come and explain the ring dac or whatever secrets are in the Varese?

to me the why and how is never the issue to actual buyers, only the what.

it's the great unwashed that desire chapter and verse about the why and how so they can pretend they know better or find flaws in the tech. but they never buy anything in that value range. so i think staying away is the right play. let the dealers deal direct with customers. i can tell you that for me personally as a consumer of very spendy digital, i never got caught up in the technology other than to respond properly as best i could to questions, not for myself to be convinced of anything. not my deal. i listen.

the explanations as far as they go make sense, but i only understand on a surface level, not with any true depth, and i have no desire to dig deeper. i'd rather enjoy the listening.

Yes, David is interviewed in my review and he connects some of the technology to the sound we are hearing. My job as a reviewer is to gain some level of understanding and explain that to the reader so they can make more informed buying decisions. Some buyers will have an interest in the technology and some will not. It makes for a better read as well. We noticed at TAS that many readers responded to the sidebars on technology that Harley and others do so well.

 

[Lee]

Here is the just released Hifi News review which is very similar in findings to my review:

https://dcs.community/uploads/short-url/hbe4P3RsEb5Wr0zrKStmmY9ZTk6.pdf

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Here is the just released Hifi News review which is very similar in findings to my review:

https://dcs.community/uploads/short-url/hbe4P3RsEb5Wr0zrKStmmY9ZTk6.pdf

is he coming here to interact? interviews attached to reviews are not the same as dealing with all our 'experts'.

you are the one wondering about Javier....who has done plenty of interviews and videos. big whup. those are PR fluff pieces. rehashing of market-speak stuff.

 

[PYP]

Manufacturers who describe their products and the basis of their designs -- granted proprietary information limitations -- can be very insightful.

Even if one cannot understand all the technology, this kind of description is very interesting and reveals the artist behind the work. Here is a good example: https://www.grimmaudio.com/blogs/designing-the-pw1-phono-preamplifier/

There are also YouTube interviews with Eelco Grimm and Guido Tent that are revealing and interesting. I had purchased Grimm gear prior to watching these videos, but it added to the pleasure of owning a cleverly designed piece of gear that is a pleasure to listen to. Grimm Audio seems like a skunkworks, but they are the entire organization, not a separate location for innovation.

I like to think of my main gear as pieces of art. Not in the sense of investment/cost, but something ingeniously designed and attractively presented that provides rewards over the long term.

 

[tima]

Even if one cannot understand all the technology, this kind of description is very interesting and reveals the artist behind the work. Here is a good example: https://www.grimmaudio.com/blogs/designing-the-pw1-phono-preamplifier/

There are also YouTube interviews with Eelco Grimm and Guido Tent that are revealing and interesting. I had purchased Grimm gear prior to watching these videos, but it added to the pleasure of owning a cleverly designed piece of gear that is a pleasure to listen to. Grimm Audio seems like a skunkworks, but they are the entire organization, not a separate location for innovation.

I like to think of my main gear as pieces of art. Not in the sense of investment/cost, but something ingeniously designed and attractively presented that provides rewards over the long term.

When I work on a review, it is always enjoyable to interact with the designer/manufacturer. And most so when they are willing to talk about the why and what of their design. Some are quite loquacious and like to talk with someone who is interested in their work. A handful believe the end-user is not interested in the technology.

 

[PYP]

When I work on a review, it is always enjoyable to interact with the designer/manufacturer. And most so when they are willing to talk about the why and what of their design. Some are quite loquacious and like to talk with someone who is interested in their work. A handful believe the end-user is not interested in the technology.

that must be fun. What a great reward.

I greatly enjoyed this encapsulation from the designer of Grimm Audio's phono preamp:

"So what is so difficult about a phono preamp?

Well, for starters, the phono signals coming from your MM or MC cartridge are very tiny. Most MM cartridges output a nominal 5 mV, but that is for music of average loudness. And at 1 kHz. But at 20 Hz the cartridge’s output is ten times smaller: 0.5 mV which equals 500 µV (microvolt, one millionth of a Volt). For comparisons, most loudspeakers work with up to 30 Volt. But we’re not there yet. Music is not always loud, in very quiet passages it can be 60 dB softer. 60 dB is 1000 times, so now we’re talking 5 µV and 500 nV (nano = one billionth) at 1 kHz and 20 Hz respectively."

 

[tima]

to me the why and how is never the issue to actual buyers, only the what.

it's the great unwashed that desire chapter and verse about the why and how so they can pretend they know better or find flaws in the tech. but they never buy anything in that value range. they eye appraised it based on the price already and their minds are closed. so i think staying away is the right play. let the dealers deal direct with flesh and blood customers. i can tell you that for me personally as a consumer of very spendy digital, i never got caught up in the technology other than to respond properly as best i could to questions, not for myself to be convinced of anything. not my deal. i listen.

Buyers or not, this forum seems to belie that. I suspect for those stretching their budget or buying for the long term they are more likely to enjoy knowing all they can about a piece of gear. Maybe they are not pretending and are truly interested. Perhaps for those with a high turnover rate it's just another conversation piece -- the what.

 

[Tangram]

When I work on a review, it is always enjoyable to interact with the designer/manufacturer. And most so when they are willing to talk about the why and what of their design. Some are quite loquacious and like to talk with someone who is interested in their work. A handful believe the end-user is not interested in the technology.

The “story” no doubt contributes to the emotional response we have to a product. And for certain segments, such as highest end digital where many of us would strain to hear much difference between, say, two DACs, I can see it tipping the scales between two brands. The stakes are high, so everything matters, including elements that have zero bearing on sound.

 

[JiminGa]

does Mr. dCS come and explain the ring dac or whatever secrets are in the Varese?

to me the why and how is never the issue to actual buyers, only the what.

it's the great unwashed that desire chapter and verse about the why and how so they can pretend they know better or find flaws in the tech. but they never buy anything in that value range. they eye appraised it based on the price already and their minds are closed. so i think staying away is the right play. let the dealers deal direct with flesh and blood customers. i can tell you that for me personally as a consumer of very spendy digital, i never got caught up in the technology other than to respond properly as best i could to questions, not for myself to be convinced of anything. not my deal. i listen.

the explanations as far as they go make sense, but i only understand on a surface level, not with any true depth, and i have no desire to dig deeper. i'd rather enjoy the listening.

I disagree totally. I want to know why something sounds different and how it’s done. “Error correction” mechanisms, for example, are a double edge sword. They make recordings more pleasant (to a computer) but at what cost? How it’s done is everything.

 

[TonyW]

A guy buys a receiver, takes it home, hooks up some speakers, plugs it in and is soon returning it to the store. This receiver is defective. It does not pick up any FM radio stations, he says. Hmm, says the shop owner. Let’s take a look. He connects a dipole antenna and the receiver tunes in dozens of radio stations. The buyer stands by his assessment claiming the receiver is defective because it did not work at his house. He demands a refund and leaves to find another brand. Telling his friends that brand X is no good. He didn’t understand the need for an antenna.

I’m a retired design engineer. The biggest challenge for any product design- which is the basis for product liability is how can the product be misapplied and what dangers exist to the end user. What happens when someone builds a tube based stereo system in their bathroom and then reaches for the volume knob while dripping wet just out of the shower? What happens when someone thinks to hook up 8 speakers in parallel to their high powered amp in an attempt to get surround sound? If that amp doesn’t have overcurrent protection the company that made that amp could be held liable for that person’s house burning down. His misapplication of the amp doesn’t matter in product liability.

Someone adds rocket motors to their car to get more acceleration. Is the automaker liable for the damages that follow? Don’t expect a clear answer.

That is the more serious side. The main issue is manufacturers have no control over how their products will be applied. From input voltages to someone living next to a solar farm or an airport with massive EMI/RFI issues to using speakers with impedances all over the map wrt frequency. Someone might have a system setup outdoors in frigid temps while another system is operating in a desert at 120F. I wonder how much environmental testing goes on in the hifi industry.

How customers respond to a particular product is a statistical study. Reviews on Amazon are classic. Some customers will be extremely happy while others are bitterly disappointed. The vital data is where the bell curve falls and the spread of the bell curve. A product with 100% 5 star ratings should raise suspicions.

If the primary struggle for manufacturers is insuring their products are properly and safely applied, how much information should be provided to the end user about the design principles, development and testing? Most certainly competitive secrets from suppliers that can deliver materials to how the product is built must be protected. The best we can expect is a general explanation from the manufacturer of how a circuit works or why the speaker cones are coated with diamond dust.

 

[TonyW]

And on another note…

One thing I do not hear much about in hifi is product variation. How do I know that the expensive piece of gear I just bought sounds as good as or the same as someone else’s copy? I’ve read that certain manufacturers audition each and every reference component that they sell. That’s comforting but what if the person that does the auditioning had a bad night? Does that person listen to it more than once? Does a panel of experts do the auditioning?

As much as we would like to know the design principles and practices of a particular product, I would also like to know the manufacturing process. What process controls are used in manufacturing their product? How are incoming materials checked and verified? How does the manufacturer control process variation?

I’ve had component failures in new gear- primarily capacitors. I have watched some YouTube videos that hifi manufacturers have made of their manufacturing processes with great interest. I’ve seen signs of good process controls by some manufacturers as well as capacitor burn in by one outstanding speaker manufacturer and signs of poor process controls where those companies would be better off not showing their manufacturing processes.

Statistical process controls are difficult to apply to low volume manufacturing. In-process checks and measurements at key steps in the assembly process are needed as well as a good Final Test designed to catch built-in defects.

Still , while it would be interesting to see reviewers test multiple copies of a piece of gear, it is not necessarily so practical- unfortunate. When I see people state in reviews that they had to try two or three copies of a particular camera lens to get a good copy, it makes me wonder about hifi.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I disagree totally. I want to know why something sounds different and how it’s done. “Error correction” mechanisms, for example, are a double edge sword.

and you would then do what with that information? spend big big dollars?

They make recordings more pleasant (to a computer) but at what cost? How it’s done is everything.

and you are an owner or active current buyer for an over $250k digital front end? or just in general want to know how and why for ultra digital for sh*t's and giggles?

many want to know, and no problem. but who are actual buyers and what do they do? that is who these manufacturers need to respond to. messing around on a forum can be a negative. it's a slippery slope. dealers are there to answer to actual customers with money. and the dealers prefer to be the source of information. forums can work against them. remember that the dealers are the real customers of the manufacturer for top level digital products.

 

[JiminGa]

And on another note…

One thing I do not hear much about in hifi is product variation. How do I know that the expensive piece of gear I just bought sounds as good as or the same as someone else’s copy? I’ve read that certain manufacturers audition each and every reference component that they sell. That’s comforting but what if the person that does the auditioning had a bad night? Does that person listen to it more than once? Does a panel of experts do the auditioning?

As much as we would like to know the design principles and practices of a particular product, I would also like to know the manufacturing process. What process controls are used in manufacturing their product? How are incoming materials checked and verified? How does the manufacturer control process variation?

I’ve had component failures in new gear- primarily capacitors. I have watched some YouTube videos that hifi manufacturers have made of their manufacturing processes with great interest. I’ve seen signs of good process controls by some manufacturers as well as capacitor burn in by one outstanding speaker manufacturer and signs of poor process controls where those companies would be better off not showing their manufacturing processes.

Statistical process controls are difficult to apply to low volume manufacturing. In-process checks and measurements at key steps in the assembly process are needed as well as a good Final Test designed to catch built-in defects.

Still , while it would be interesting to see reviewers test multiple copies of a piece of gear, it is not necessarily so practical- unfortunate. When I see people state in reviews that they had to try two or three copies of a particular camera lens to get a good copy, it makes me wonder about hifi.

Excellent point. I left my class A Gryphon on full bias for a couple of months and heard some crackling from one of the speakers. Out of warranty I sent it to Soren a well known danish repairman who works on large studio boards across the U.S. He's a great guy and we spent a lot of time talking on the phone during the 2 weeks or so he had my amp. He taught me that no high end amp manufacturer on earth truly has the process/means to insure perfection. He is in fact paid by several northern European amp manufacturers (that everyone here knows) to go over some of their most expensive products to insure quality prior to sale. He said " Jim, at some point you are a prisoner to the "solder monkeys" who make these things. They are told what to do and it's inspected but they are human beings doing a job for money". In my case he found one small error which allowed for over heating under extraordinary circumstances. I had him go over the entire amp and he made perfect each and every part. I don't care who you are no one can afford (nor do they have the zealots working for them) to have perfect quality control. I am now loath to "upgrade" my amp anytime soon because I will never get the level of attention to execution that I have now even if the parts/design of a new amp is superior. Great point Tony!

 

[PYP]

How customers respond to a particular product is a statistical study. Reviews on Amazon are classic. Some customers will be extremely happy while others are bitterly disappointed. The vital data is where the bell curve falls and the spread of the bell curve. A product with 100% 5 star ratings should raise suspicions.

Perhaps relevant to audio, the reviews also seem to take the price into consideration. A gadget that is low cost often seems to get a pass because the investment was so low. As the price goes up, folks are fussier. Of course, if a product fails when used, those get scathing reviews and, as you say, the purchaser may have used it in unintended ways.

In audio, it sometimes appears that this principle works in reverse. If the "gadget" is very expensive there is an assumption that it sounds very good and, with a considerable investment made, the user reviews seem to skew positive. Is there a professional review in the audio universe that doesn't use this logic: "I listened to the xyz's more expensive model, and of course it sounded better. It should at twice the price." Well, maybe. And maybe for that user/reviewer.

But while I've seen a new logic that says diminishing returns do not exist in audio (and I know it was more nuanced than that, but that is how it is often heard), diminishing returns do exist for the consumer. Nearly everyone has a budget. And sometimes what one wants to spend is less the what one can spend. Especially as prices rise into the stratosphere and, with a long road behind us, getting that last 5 - 10% might not seem reasonable if the existing setup already provides connection to the music and enhances the discovery of new albums, styles and musicians.

 

[bonzo75]

and you would then do what with that information? spend big big dollars?

and you are an owner or active current buyer for an over $250k digital front end? or just in general want to know how and why for ultra digital for sh*t's and giggles?

many want to know, and no problem. but who are actual buyers and what do they do? that is who these manufacturers need to respond to. messing around on a forum can be a negative. it's a slippery slope. dealers are there to answer to actual customers with money. and the dealers prefer to be the source of information. forums can work against them. remember that the dealers are the real customers of the manufacturer for top level digital products.

I think it is fine to not know and just judge on the sonics. I have seen many consider themselves to be technical, and in the process make incorrect calls only to realize later that they only half understood the technical stuff, and there was an alternative technical aspect that made sense - but with their half-arsed knowledge they were unable to appreciate it initially.

That said, this discussion started with OP claiming expensive goods contain expensive components - which is just plain false - they either don't, or the information is not known due to "proprietary" covered stuff and your warranty will likely be invalid if you open it yourself.

From a personal experience, buying big brands does not give us technical insights. If you end up liking small manufacturers sound, chatting with them will give more technical insights as they are directly sharing their experience and expertise. How many users of Magico and wilson users are talking directly to the designer to understand? The more designers you meet and follow, the more insights wlll grow, and with small manufacturers this is easier. You might not get completely technical, but at least you will know BS if someone tells you this 100k thing has expensive components in it, when it only has a proprietary stuff you cannot see, or a driver that is available for a few 100.

 

[Elliot G.]

Excellent point. I left my class A Gryphon on full bias for a couple of months and heard some crackling from one of the speakers. Out of warranty I sent it to Soren a well known danish repairman who works on large studio boards across the U.S. He's a great guy and we spent a lot of time talking on the phone during the 2 weeks or so he had my amp. He taught me that no high end amp manufacturer on earth truly has the process/means to insure perfection. He is in fact paid by several northern European amp manufacturers (that everyone here knows) to go over some of their most expensive products to insure quality prior to sale. He said " Jim, at some point you are a prisoner to the "solder monkeys" who make these things. They are told what to do and it's inspected but they are human beings doing a job for money". In my case he found one small error which allowed for over heating under extraordinary circumstances. I had him go over the entire amp and he made perfect each and every part. I don't care who you are no one can afford (nor do they have the zealots working for them) to have perfect quality control. I am now loath to "upgrade" my amp anytime soon because I will never get the level of attention to execution that I have now even if the parts/design of a new amp is superior. Great point Tony!

I’m not sure I get your point Jim and Tony. Do you actually expect every product you purchase to be perfect ? If you think prices are high now try thinking about that.
Gobel actually tests and measures everything they build and 100 percent QC and has its own Anechoic chamber.
Does he need to do more? Test them for a month, 3 months, a year before they get shipped?
What you asking for is impossible and unaffordable.
How long should BmW test my car? Should every single BmW be exactly perfect? How about my refrigerator? My Apple Watch? My Patek ? My golf balls?