No I don’t expect perfection. I was emphasizing his point that individual variability is a real thing and gave an example. I have no greater “point” to make. Just a back and forth with another consumer on a forum which is designed for exactly that. Didn’t really take into account how a dealer might react to what I said as I am not particularly interested in that. I enjoy your posts related to the musical listening experience and we share similar thoughts on that. Defensive dealer/distributor comments not so much. I learned something from experience and shared that on a forum dedicated to similar souls. Simple as that. No “point” . Peace
The Case for High End Audio
- Thread starter Ted Denney III
- Start date
You missed my point. I want to know that my copy of a piece of hifi gear is the same as- performs the same as any other copy. And that is within a certain level of variation. And my concern is based on low volume manufacturing processes that are mostly manual, thus lacking statistical process controls.
Funny you should mention a car, an Apple Watch and golf balls which all high volume and use statistical process controls yielding very little product variation. Only the most discerning drivers could likely detect a difference between two identical BMWs. And that would most likely be someone that works in the industry trained to drive and test the cars.
Back in the 1990s I had a Ford Release Engineeer in my new car one day. I had no sooner backed out of the parking space when he said something was loose, rattling in the car. I heard nothing. A day later the radio antenna fell off. I managed to recover it. Left me impressed. His was a tough job. If he missed something on an evaluation vehicle that an executive later caught, that was the end of his job.
And yes, I expect my $19k DAC and every piece of gear I buy, to be perfect or better. Absolutely. Anything less and I will move on.
The problem with saying something is impossible- someone will prove you wrong. I don’t mean to be provocative. I want to point out that the auto industry in the USA was transformed in the 1990s when the Asian auto industry did what US Auto executives said was impossible. Look at the reliability of cars today vs in the 1980s and then consider the amount of content in today’s cars vs 1980. Many cars still had hand crank windows in the 80s.
Funny you should mention a car, an Apple Watch and golf balls which all high volume and use statistical process controls yielding very little product variation. Only the most discerning drivers could likely detect a difference between two identical BMWs. And that would most likely be someone that works in the industry trained to drive and test the cars.
Back in the 1990s I had a Ford Release Engineeer in my new car one day. I had no sooner backed out of the parking space when he said something was loose, rattling in the car. I heard nothing. A day later the radio antenna fell off. I managed to recover it. Left me impressed. His was a tough job. If he missed something on an evaluation vehicle that an executive later caught, that was the end of his job.
And yes, I expect my $19k DAC and every piece of gear I buy, to be perfect or better. Absolutely. Anything less and I will move on.
The problem with saying something is impossible- someone will prove you wrong. I don’t mean to be provocative. I want to point out that the auto industry in the USA was transformed in the 1990s when the Asian auto industry did what US Auto executives said was impossible. Look at the reliability of cars today vs in the 1980s and then consider the amount of content in today’s cars vs 1980. Many cars still had hand crank windows in the 80s.
no he merely said quality, not quantity. he did not say expensive pieces. or particular bits. what he actually said;
>>>>I love high end anything. Because the high end represents the pinnacle of human endeavor, quality in everything including performance and aesthetics. Having fewer high-end things, that we use in our daily lives versus consumerism, where we buy loads of cheap disposable crap, that fills a short term dopamine hit, and will soon need to be replaced by more cheap disposable crap. Or, lead a more minimalist life, where you pursue quality over quantity.<<<<
quality does not equal the most expensive pieces, it means the highest performance. highest build quality. which could mean special tech or assembly. it means the right pieces in the right places. long lasting user satisfaction. the right tool for the job. and those attributes are what i value too. me understanding how the secret sauce exactly works is not important, even to the point of me rather not have that in my mind so i can simply consume the result of the timeless piece of gear. i do need to make sure it's properly executed in my system to be optimal. i want the highest quality experience. and i think i have that (knowing for sure is not possible). which is what matters to me.
and i have found that other buyers of tip top digital view this issue more similarly to me than not. they are not caught up in the why or how. they want to sit back and enjoy. and the sellers of this level of gear realize that.
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In some interviews with manufacturers, they will explain their process of testing and rejecting parts that don't meet a tight specification. I would think those are for brands that are known for their reliability. As a consumer of high-quality audio, I would expect that process as well as gear being tested by operating for a reasonable period of time before going out the door. You obviously have more than a peek behind the curtain. Do you think these kinds of practices are rare for audio companies that have been in business for a while? It's always a comfort to me when the company has experience in pro audio, where time = money.
me too. One high end designer and manufacturer is known for personally listening to each speakers before they are shipped. I know economics play a part, but why can't others do the same? Or do they? [a previous iteration of my speakers came with a chart showing the test results for the right and left speaker.]
Hi Ted, hope all is well!
I think the concept of "high end" is very personal. My issue with today's high-end is there's often a very thin veneer of luxury used to denote a product as high end that is often questionable, as in there's little substance to back up the bling.
A couple of examples... Luxury cars simply don't have the build quality they used to, both mechanically and otherwise. Mercedes used to go through great lengths to make every component it uses truly high end both under the hood and in the interior. It made for a really big difference between how these cars were made and how they felt to drive vs a regular car. A mid 80's BMW 635CSi or early 90's Merc 500E was a TRUE high-end luxury car because they were so much better than a "regular" car in every way. Today's luxury cars are often built on the same chassis as basic cars and while they may have larger motors and different interior materials that hardly justifies any major cost increase, they are basically just gussied-up regular cars with a thin veneer of luxury, they aren't as reliable as they used to be, they aren't as different and obviously better than anything else. I just saw a Ferrari GTC4Lusso with a wavy front bumper that didn't color match the metal, just like Mazda and Ford, with a ridiculous amount of orange peel. It was horrible, the car's exterior fit and finish was basic and ordinary, almost what you'd expect from an economy car. To be fair, I also recently saw a McLaren with the nicest paint job I've ever seen... it was a $115k option though!
Designer clothing used to be made with the best materials and techniques available. You'd get artistic design along with the best fabrics and impeccable finishing. Now you get a logo tee for $200 that's worth $5, ugly sneakers made in China on a budget, and even much lower standards for formal wear. There are exceptions, but there's no denying overall quality is often no better than buying clothes at Target.
So it seems like a lot of folks don't care about quality and "high end" is simply a matter of design, branding and status. To me, without real substance they are "fake luxury", there's a thin veneer of luxury over an ordinary product... but to each their own. I feel like sometimes consumers are mislead, but this has always been the case, an educated consumer is the best consumer and less likely to be taken advantage of. For me, no way I'd spend the cash on a modern luxury car or ridiculous non-functional designer sneakers made popular by rappers, those are, to me, fake luxury. I feel the same about some audio products but that can get contentious, lol.
Luckily there are products for everyone. I think in audio you pay a lot for brands and industrial design that doesn't contribute to sound quality, but that's fine, it adds to the pride of ownership for many folks and looks good in the living room. Luxury goods are by definition a niche market and there are niches for all, so there's no need for the broad appeal of a commodity item, the mfg'er/seller only needs a small slice of the market to buy. Every luxury brand has a story to tell, and different people with different priorities will buy into that brand's story. In one of Ron's recent threads he mentions the "mad scientist" type, well there's actually a brand called "Mad Scientist Audio" if that sort of thing appeals to you, there you go. If you want the specs and "real engineering" hey, Iconoclast has a product for you! And on and on... so many are just a bunch of BS but that's just my perspective. The story is there to justify the luxury pricing, that's how it works. I stay clear off all that as much as possible, but it shows everyone has a different idea of what high end means.
Also, I have not read this thread yet so apologies if some of this has been mentioned, this is just my initial reaction.
This reminded me of an article about manufacturing a Steinway piano. After the final process of assembly, someone sits down and plays and listens. The final tester thought he heard something that resembled a metal piece hitting a trash can lid (his description). The piano was checked. No. Everything OK. He listened again. Nope, can't release this one something is wrong. After much doubt and then much effort, a technician put together a magnet on a length of wire and fished around. Found it! It was a stray bolt that occasionally moved around.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I’m trying to understand. I can only speak for what I have experienced, seen and of course care about. I know how Gobel tries for perfection. The finishes , packing, quality control and consistency are as close as humanly possible to perfection.
Does your 19k dac do the same thing? I have no clue.
I’m at peace and not trying to be provocative, just trying to understand the context.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I totally agree and have made the point often that High End is more than high price or a fancy faceplate
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
By the way no real high end piece should ever have variations from piece to piece except for some unplanned error. Humans make errors but that’s why good companies check at every level. . If a company is substantially changing production and parts from unit to unit that’s as far from high end as possible.
You pay for the correct item you should and do deserve to receive what you pay for
Thank you for your responses. My point is that even very small variations by fallible humans can have consequences that are not caught by typical cost effective QC practices. That is true in all the examples you gave in various industries. That was my point in repeating Sorens experiences working with top end European electronics manufacturers. They send amps to him for inspection as even they realize their limitations. 95% of the time there may be no obvious consequence but in my case it led to one part soldered slightly off spec led to overheating that would not have happened unless some idiot ( like me) left it on high bias 24/7 for months. No, there should not be obvious variation from amp to amp.
Sorry, sending and safely landing a rover to Mars, or making the James Webb space telescope, sending it into orbit, and unfolding it there are more like the things I associate with the real pinnacles of human endeavor, at least when it comes to technology.
The body of the greatest music ever written, or the greatest works of art or literature, as pinnacles of human endeavor are yet another matter.
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And the R&D can and does lead to the development of more earth-bound technologies and products. One example being NASA: "Since 1976,[2] the NASA Technology Transfer Program[3] has connected NASA resources to private industry, referring to the commercial products as spin-offs. Well-known products that NASA claims as spin-offs include memory foam (originally named temper foam), freeze-dried food, firefighting equipment, emergency "space blankets", DustBusters, cochlear implants, LZR Racer swimsuits, and CMOS image sensors. As of 2016, NASA has published over 2,000 other spin-offs in the fields of computer technology, environment and agriculture, health and medicine, public safety, transportation, recreation, and industrial productivity. Contrary to common belief, NASA did not invent Tang, Velcro or Teflon.[4]"
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