The Eight Things You Need to Know From CES 2013

[Orb]

Look,
you DO NOT have to pay $15k for high end
The option is there for those that do and differences will be pros and cons probably, others can buy the products still that classify as high end with great build and engineering at cheaper prices.
Why keep on about products they think is expensive and using that to say their friends do not understand high end, when they could show them the accessible high end products?
For many in the industry I bet the Magico S1 defines new standards for entry high end speaker, but I am sure some will question this due to its $12.5k price for an entry level speaker.

Please do not forget my mention about the best priced high end DAC IMO would be from T+A (here in Europe it is embarrasingly cheap for a high end product with excellent engineering,build,development,measurements and performance).
Just my take.
Orb

 

[mep]

I think people need to differentiate between a product that represents the entry level of a given manufacturer's line with regards to price vice a product that represents entry level high-end sound quality. I think there is a big difference.

 

[Orb]

.....$15K is more than a Ref 5SE, and I don't think anyone would call that linestage an "entry level" product.....

To clarify and apologies for multiple posts, you will notice I said high end does not begin with say a "ref" model, meaning that while Ref is in REF5, the entry high end is in reality the LS27 for Audio Research that has excellent sound,build, and measurements.
I think you would agree that is an entry model and is still high end.

Cheers
Orb

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Orb

Let ask the frank question here. For a family making $200K a year with two kids, a house (=mortgage) and a car what would be an entry level system price (MSRP)? Source + amp+ Speakers + Cable by Blue Jeans or Mogami ... Just sayin' a $7K make a big dent in this family income ...

 

[Orb]

I think people need to differentiate between a product that represents the entry level of a given manufacturer's line with regards to price vice a product that represents entry level high-end sound quality. I think there is a big difference.

So are you disagreeing that a middle model from a manufacturer is high end if they also sell high priced products?
I need a bit more explanation to follow where this goes so apologies if misunderstanding.
Thanks.
Orb

 

[mep]

Nope-I would not agree that the LS27 represents the entry level for linestages in ARC's line up. That would be the LS16 if I'm not mistaken. The LS27 sells for as much used as a REF 3 because some people feel it is just as good. At one time the REF 3 was the top of ARC's line, not the entryway into it.

 

[Orb]

Hi

Orb

Let ask the frank question here. For a family making $200K a year with two kids, a house (=mortgage) and a car what would be an entry level system price (MSRP)? Source + amp+ Speakers + Cable by Blue Jeans or Mogami ... Just sayin' a $7K make a big dent in this family income ...

So your saying high end at $7k for a Classe DAC/preamp is a wrong aspect of high end and should be cheaper
Earlier Frantz the complaint from several was about high end with Q7 or WA XLF, then it came down to the anomalies such as the MAD speaker, now $7k for something that is a DAC-preamp combo

I do not think I can debate it any lower than around the $5k for a very few of the exceptionally well priced products that may deemed high end tbh, so you win
Still this then moves into high end integrated amps that do fit, which I feel has been improving vastly over the years when considering all aspects both form and function, with some exceptionally well built and priced products, along with others such as the Dartzeel and a few others at the other end of the spectrum.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Nope-I would not agree that the LS27 represents the entry level for linestages in ARC's line up. That would be the LS16 if I'm not mistaken. The LS27 sells for as much used as a REF 3 because some people feel it is just as good. At one time the REF 3 was the top of ARC's line, not the entryway into it.

I am talking entry high end not entry products, because Kef has entry and budget priced speakers that are not high end.
Interesting to think if LS16 is high end (not disagreeing just used the model I know pretty well), if so just proves that high end is cheaper than some think
Cheers
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[mep]

So are you disagreeing that a middle model from a manufacturer is high end if they also sell high priced products?
I need a bit more explanation to follow where this goes so apologies if misunderstanding.
Thanks.
Orb

I see you changed your original post where you postulated that the ARC LS27 represented the entry level for ARC in linestages to what is written above which leaves my response to your original post flapping in the breeze.

 

[Orb]

I see you changed your original post where you postulated that the ARC LS27 represented the entry level for ARC in linestages to what is written above which leaves my response to your original post flapping in the breeze.

Eh, which post MEP?
I may had edited some for english/clarity but did not change the context of "entry high end", this has been the thrust of my argument in this and the other thread, although I accept one or two posts may miss that out however the context from my posting is pretty consistent I thought.
Thanks
Orb

 

[mep]

I am talking entry high end not entry products, because Kef has entry and budget priced speakers that are not high end.
Interesting to think if LS16 is high end (not disagreeing just used the model I know pretty well), if so just proves that high end is cheaper than some think
Cheers
Orb

Well, here is a fun exercise: Define what constitutes high-end sound and how much of it you have to capture before you are allowed inside the high-end tent and allowed to take a seat on the bench in the back row. I'm off to make some popcorn...

 

[mep]

Eh, which post MEP?
I may had edited some for english/clarity but did not change the context of "entry high end", this has been the thrust of my argument in this and the other thread, although I accept one or two posts may miss that out although the context from my posting is pretty consistent I thought.
Thanks
Orb

You rewrote post #25 and left out the statement you made that the LS27 represented the entry level for ARC linestages.

 

[Orb]

Hmm,
just done a check and the only post I edited was #12 in this thread so has not changed from what I can tell, and definitely have not deleted posts (try not to do that even if I make a hash of a post that then needs editing many times doh ).
Cheers
Orb

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

After reading the posts I think that you cannot realistically put a price on it. In fact, I think "price" should be thrown out the window as we each have our own perception of what is an entry-level product that provides high-end performance. It is also based on one's means of affording certain pieces.

 

[Orb]

Well, here is a fun exercise: Define what constitutes high-end sound and how much of it you have to capture before you are allowed inside the high-end tent and allowed to take a seat on the bench in the back row. I'm off to make some popcorn...

I have Mep, either this thread or the other.
In this thread I gave some examples of manufacturers but not spending ages going through the models to make the point as it should be pretty easy to work out, in the other thread debating high end and prices I provided what I felt are variables defining a high end for component or manufacturer, also included real example of the very top tier high end statement product involving Kef and Concept Blade.

Sorry I am not trying to be confrontational, so will let others suggest what defines entry high end from both a component and also a manufacturer standpoint as it does feel I am hogging this now.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Shaffer]

Sometimes I feel like I just walked into an Audio Bizzaro Land. Audiolab will sell you an integrated for $1K that doesn't embarrass itself. Not hardly. I own one. That's entry-level. AA wants to sell you a Bryston integrated for $3K. Better than entry-level and still affordable by folks with lives. I love exotic gear as much as the next guy, but let's get real here. I make a decent living and spending $5K+ of after tax income isn't a trivial decision. So much so that it can never happen in my world.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Sometimes I feel like I just walked into an Audio Bizzaro Land. Audiolab will sell you an integrated for $1K that doesn't embarrass itself. Not hardly. I own one. That's entry-level. AA wants to sell you a Bryston integrated for $3K. Better than entry-level and still affordable by folks with lives. I love exotic gear as much as the next guy, but let's get real here. I make a decent living and spending $5K+ of after tax income isn't a trivial decision. So much so that it can never happen in my world.

Same here.

 

[JackD201]

Was any of the components selected for the TWBAS projects not the top of the line of each mark? If so which wasn't?

 

[Orb]

Sometimes I feel like I just walked into an Audio Bizzaro Land. Audiolab will sell you an integrated for $1K that doesn't embarrass itself. Not hardly. I own one. That's entry-level. AA wants to sell you a Bryston integrated for $3K. Better than entry-level and still affordable by folks with lives. I love exotic gear as much as the next guy, but let's get real here. I make a decent living and spending $5K+ of after tax income isn't a trivial decision. So much so that it can never happen in my world.

But does that mean the more expensive high end (lets ignore the upper and say just entry) is not more costly when taking into account all aspects such as build quality, components used, importantly where built, QA,etc.
Ayre is probably one of the best priced high end sellers out there, there are substantial differences between their products and Audiolab (not necessarily engineering knowledge but engineering development and critically build and manufacturing processes) - and I am a massive fan of John Westlake btw who has helped Audiolab reinvent themselves with their new products, followed him for quite a many years and chatted with him in the past.

As I mentioned earlier there are a very few products that manage to break the high end cost model; In Europe it is Devialet (sadly price in North America makes it less competitive than Europe) and other such as T+A with their DAC8 http://www.taelektroakustik.de/index.php?id=349&L=1, and Ayre-Simaudio in North America with many of its products.
The T+A is much more than the MDAC designed by John Westlake; the extra engineering, build quality and components,etc easily accounts for price differences, the T+A rrp is £1,800ish and MDAC is £600ish.
This then would change the debate to "do such products need those higher and additional internal components while also being built from costly materials such as aluminium", but that is part of the high end and part of build quality, some may argue the same about where a product is built and managing-monitoring said manufacturing line.

Comes down to what is high end, which it does look like most of us have a different perceptive for what it is (no right or wrong because it is not an absolute).
Edit:
Where built for high end is not always in the west (thought I better add that caveat), but adds costs for those that are.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Was any of the components selected for the TWBAS projects not the top of the line of each mark? If so which wasn't?

Hehe now that is a good question
And why
Cheers
Orb