The Eight Things You Need to Know From CES 2013

[FrantzM]

Amen!

What I find most interesting is that most any list of products (on forums or in the audio magazines) that would make up a "entry level", "mid level" or any other level of "high end" (whatever that is), almost NEVER includes room treatment products. And I don't believe that they are "assumed". There is no shiny silver 1 inch thick face plates and they completely lack any sense WOW factor. Maybe all of the members of this forum consider room treatment as a vital component but when I visited homes with high end systems in another audio life, probably less than 20% gave it any thought -- even with $50,000+ systems.

I've heard $5000 systems in well done rooms that eat the lunch of systems costing 20 times that in horrible and totally untreated rooms.

Just sayin'

+1

 

[MylesBAstor]

+1

And vice versa. Just as a badly matched system can sound awful, so can a badly designed or treated room.

 

[JackD201]

Right approach there Jack IMO and I do wonder if more dealers do this than not (maybe a region thing but it is a challenge for you dealers to compete at those prices against online buying and the power of large retailers - I know Unilet has to face that challenge with their selling of Marantz-Yamaha-etc).

So regarding CES.
Who took time to listen at the Marantz,KEF,B&W,Cambridge Audio, and Harman Kardon to see what they are doing that could entice those into audio and listen to the sound quality of their high end if on show?
I could name a few others but these are brand names that are more likely to be known by consumers while also providing interesting products with quality.

Edit:
Another name that should be included is TEAC, amazed I forgot them.

Cheers
Orb

It's a small market so all the dealers know each other. I'd say it is more the rule. We can compete with the gray market easily mainly through the savings we have in freight because we have commercial accounts with carriers. The majority of us stay very close to US street prices. There's no incentive for going gray when you do that. That's why I chuckle everytime I read about exorbitant dealer margins. The government makes more than we do on taxes and input VAT.

Many would be surprised that online prices are higher in many cases than brick and mortar and that's before S&H. No way to haggle either.

REGA is doing very well here and so is Cambridge. Paradigm too. Brands with good penetration from China, Cayin would be the front runner. ASL and Opera (Consonance) just disappeared without a trace. NAD will always be NAD, same with Wharfdale. B&W has split distribution. 800 series is sold through a different channel from everything else they make.

 

[Orb]

Sigh,
actually a big sigh because it is the vocal ones who keep on accusing people "absurd" for using a different criteria, even though some may have backgrounds in engineering and product design but not in audio.
Please open your eyes and realise there are 2 ways to perceive high end entry or even high end.

1. What most in this thread especially the vocal ones feel is that high end entry is about the sound quality (subjective and not easily quantifiable) and does not necessarily matter if constraints-limitations are within aspects of the engineering process for either or both design and implementation (with said processes-internal components-etc).
This logically brings the price of high end down to say $1k to $2k and even lower for digital, however I notice none of those vocals about this responded to my post asking who went to listen to Marantz-Yamaha-B&W and comparable peers at CES
Also this then tries to split engineering into entry and high end where in reality a very few entry and high end both use unique and highly advanced engineering in design or applied to the build and internal components-spec; by differentiating them it is saying that anything beyond the cheaper approach should be cancelled (and can be applied to architectures of designs) because most follow up this argument that there is no need for said products at those costs.
SO do you really think the definition of high end IS $1k for most products?
If so then high end is logically safe and doing well and has a product for everyone, furthermore with prices not increasing because there are manufacturers in every price bracket of high end as there was in the past.

2. Others like myself see high end including entry high end being excellent sound and engineering that must represent in many ways through design and implementation.
With that criteria high end has a much broader price spectrum of say $5k (again lower for digital) to $15k, because the engineering architecture,design tools, processes are so diverse but all represent a part of high end entry (some use tools or manufacturing that just cannot be done cheaper than say $15kish (probably the price is a little below this in reality because some are pushed up due to "across the pond" effect).

To say one perspective is absurd is quite insulting, but then I guess some cannot understand others perspectives, and how logically actually both thoughts are slightly flawed anyway.
Orb

 

[Shaffer]

To say one perspective is absurd is quite insulting, but then I guess some cannot understand others perspectives, and how logically actually both thoughts are slightly flawed anyway.
Orb

Frankly, this line of discussion insulting to those of us who love AUDIO. As has been said, you're asserting an idea based solely on the statement class of components. It's not even a sonic perspective, but one consisting of almost every attribute except for the sound. One can certainly see how a conquest buyer can be enamored by such an approach, but that's not the audience you're addressing.

 

[Orb]

It's a small market so all the dealers know each other. I'd say it is more the rule. We can compete with the gray market easily mainly through the savings we have in freight because we have commercial accounts with carriers. The majority of us stay very close to US street prices. There's no incentive for going gray when you do that. That's why I chuckle everytime I read about exorbitant dealer margins. The government makes more than we do on taxes and input VAT.

Many would be surprised that online prices are higher in many cases than brick and mortar and that's before S&H. No way to haggle either.

REGA is doing very well here and so is Cambridge. Paradigm too. Brands with good penetration from China, Cayin would be the front runner. ASL and Opera (Consonance) just disappeared without a trace. NAD will always be NAD, same with Wharfdale. B&W has split distribution. 800 series is sold through a different channel from everything else they make.

Good to hear
The B&W 800 series seems same over here as well in the UK, especially if a dealer sells KEF reference I kid you not
You do not mention Musical Fidelity or is Cambridge top product and NAD covering MF middle models?
BTW did you consider the Marantz Pearl's and Pearl Lite models along with others and was there an interest in general brand names such as Marantz-Harman Kardon-etc?

Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Frankly, this line of discussion insulting to those of us who love AUDIO. As has been said, you're asserting an idea based solely on the statement class of components. It's not even a sonic perspective, but one consisting of almost every attribute except for the sound. One can certainly see how a conquest buyer can be enamored by such an approach, but that's not the audience you're addressing.

Sigh, it is sonic and engineering but you seem to want to push me away from my view of BOTH.
I think you will find sound quality improvements occurs with improvements in engineering design and implementation, in many ways there is no getting away from that I am afraid.
To suggest high end $1k product is equal in sound to my idea of high end entry is interesting to say the least.
Like saying there is no difference between a Magico S1 and Q3......
I guess there is no sound differences between MDF box cabinet and those using advanced techniques (whether sandwich-curves or materials such as aluminium or as Wilson Audio)

BTW Shaffer, how many here can you say have pushed Marantz and Cambridge Audio, or the well priced B&W and KEF?
How many mention said products at CES.
How many complain high end is dying, and yet vehemently say high end is much lower than $5k and anyone thinking otherwise is absurd.....
Logic breaks because therefore high end has not changed; we have products at all prices ($1k, $2-$4k,$5k,etc up to what some call stupid high end in the $20k/$30k) and this has not changed, but seems some complaining about high end change the goals to suit their argument.
Leaving it at this because this is becoming tiresome not enjoyable, well done
Orb

 

[Shaffer]

Sigh, it is sonic and engineering but you seem to want to push me away from my view of BOTH.
I think you will find sound quality improvements occurs with improvements in engineering design and implementation, in many ways there is no getting away from that I am afraid.
To suggest high end $1k product is equal in sound to my idea of high end entry is interesting to say the least.
Like saying there is no difference between a Magico S1 and Q3......
I guess there is no sound differences between MDF box cabinet and those using advanced techniques (whether sandwich-curves or materials such as aluminium or as Wilson Audio)

BTW Shaffer, how many here can you say have pushed Marantz and Cambridge Audio, or the well priced B&W and KEF?
How many mention said products at CES.
How many complain high end is dying, and yet vehemently say high end is much lower than $5k and anyone thinking otherwise is absurd.....
Logic breaks because therefore high end has not changed; we have products at all prices ($1k, $2-$4k,$5k,etc up to what some call stupid high end in the $20k/$30k) and this has not changed, but seems some complaining about high end change the goals to suit their argument.
Leaving it at this because this is becoming tiresome not enjoyable, well done
Orb

Everything you say is leveraged against a cost-based perspective. No auditioning. The art of serious listening involves recognizing a piece performing well above its positioning in the marketplace. This doesn't happen by looking at numbers, chewing over a personal rationale, or waxing poetic on the 'net.

BTW Shaffer, how many here can you say have pushed Marantz and Cambridge Audio, or the well priced B&W and KEF?
How many mention said products at CES.

I have no idea, nor would I take anyone seriously who didn't assert a given standing only after an audition in his own system. It seems like I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

[JackD201]

Good to hear
The B&W 800 series seems same over here as well in the UK, especially if a dealer sells KEF reference I kid you not
You do not mention Musical Fidelity or is Cambridge top product and NAD covering MF middle models?
BTW did you consider the Marantz Pearl's and Pearl Lite models along with others and was there an interest in general brand names such as Marantz-Harman Kardon-etc?

Cheers
Orb

MF is healthy but doing best in the X line. The upper range isn't doing so well. Marantz' importer hasn't brought in the Pearls. I even had to indent my Pre-pro. They are focusing on Receivers only. A shame really. They make good front ends. Harman Kardon is doing well since the re-org. All consumer brands are under one importer now from JBL to HSG and JBL Synthesis.

My partners and I didn't consider the more mainstream brands because of the quota requirements and the rate of obsolescence. Add to that the payment terms the big boxes impose. Not worth the hair loss given that I run other businesses aside from this one and my partners are both full time investment bankers. Besides, even if we did, most are already taken. I'd like to think we have two types of products, those for people that want simplicity and those that are more narrowly focused on specific niches including DIY (we deal in tubes and some passive parts). The simple systems go to retailers, the exotic stuff we generally do personally to keep physical risks of damage to a minimum albeit there are dealers we trust enough to leave big ticket items with and more importantly we know have the chops to show them at their best.

If there is an affordable range I've had my eye on, it would be Vincent. They went to show with a brand of speakers we carry and I was impressed. Studies showed that that segment is saturated however so I never followed through on it.

 

[Orb]

Thanks Jack very interesting and I agree saturation point has been reached at several price brackets.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

If there is an affordable range I've had my eye on, it would be Vincent. They went to show with a brand of speakers we carry and I was impressed. Studies showed that that segment is saturated however so I never followed through on it.

In his review of the Vincent Tubeline SV-236MK Integrated Amplifier, Mikey had this to say:

Conclusions
If you need proof that the law of diminishing returns applies with particularly severity to high-performance audio, put the Vincent TubeLine SV-236MK up against any integrated amp, or combo of pre- and power amp, at any price. (I preferred the Vincent's sound to that of the Chord SPM 650 power amp, which I recently reviewed and which costs more than three times as much without a preamp.) Of course, there will be differences, and depending on your degrees of listening acuity and experience and the quality of the other gear in your system, you'll say "What differences?" or "Yes, but who cares?" or "It's worth spending all that money to get those differences." If you're a true audio snob, you might even say, "Get that coarse-sounding piece of budget crap out of my system!"
But, more likely than not, you'll agree that the SV-236MK brings real high-performance sound to the real-world audio enthusiast at a real-world price. $1995 is not an insignificant amount of money in this economy, but it's a manageable sum that can be paid off over time, and an expense that any music lover should be willing to take on to gain a lifetime of listening pleasure.
No doubt the Vincent TubeLine SV-236MK is not the only component costing $2000 that's capable of producing such a high level of performance, but it's certainly one that's ridiculously easy to recommend. It's the kind of component that gives me—and should give you—hope for the future of this great hobby.

These are the type of pieces that get new people into the hobby and dealers should be encouraged to take on those lines.

 

[JackD201]

Good stuff indeed John although I never heard the model in the Mikey review. I believe it was the T1 and T100 combo that put a smile on my face.

 

[Orb]

Same can be said about the Cambridge Audio Azur 851 models that are similar price I think; so both products are probably the best in breed covering most consumers in respect of either going SS or Tube.
You would think there would be more championing of these specific models on various forums and audio publications in articles and when at CES-Reviews-etc.
If talking of wanting high end at affordable prices, well I would expect both these products to be mentioned and awareness raised much more often.

The Cambridge Audio 851 (both integrated amp and CD) won the EISA awards here in Europe, with HiFi News review saying:

If ever there was a combo deserving of garish ‘Buy Me’ stickers on the fascias it’s these latest Azur components. As is so often the case with products from Cambridge Audio, what you’re getting in the 851C and 851A is cutting-edge technology for substantially less than high-end prices. Add the best speakers you can afford and this CD/DAC and amplifier will deliver a taste of hi-fi heaven.
HI-FI NEWS VERDICT
Sound Quality: 86%

A score of 86% is pretty exceptional in Hi Fi news.

So the challenge to those focusing on bang vs buck is to go out and listen to these and then start promoting both the Vincent and CA Azure 851 combo (and 851 CD separately due to is great flexibility-functionality); the scary part is maybe just maybe this puts all products (at nearly all price ranges as these with the Vincent set benchmark bridging both the cheaper and more expensive products) under the microscope and not just high end eh
Cheers
Orb

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Same can be said about the Cambridge Audio Azur 851 models that are similar price I think; so both products are probably the best in breed covering most consumers in respect of either going SS or Tube.
You would think there would be more championing of these specific models on various forums and audio publications in articles and when at CES-Reviews-etc.
If talking of wanting high end at affordable prices, well I would expect both these products to be mentioned and awareness raised much more often.

The Cambridge Audio 851 (both integrated amp and CD) won the EISA awards here in Europe, with HiFi News review saying:

A score of 86% is pretty exceptional in Hi Fi news.

So the challenge to those focusing on bang vs buck is to go out and listen to these and then start promoting both the Vincent and CA Azure 851 combo (and 851 CD separately due to is great flexibility-functionality); the scary part is maybe just maybe this puts all products (at nearly all price ranges as these with the Vincent set benchmark bridging both the cheaper and more expensive products) under the microscope and not just high end eh
Cheers
Orb

http://soundstagex.com/index.php/eq...-azur-851c-cd-player-dac-digital-preamplifier

 

[Shaffer]

Same can be said about the Cambridge Audio Azur 851 models that are similar price I think; so both products are probably the best in breed covering most consumers in respect of either going SS or Tube.
You would think there would be more championing of these specific models on various forums and audio publications in articles and when at CES-Reviews-etc.
If talking of wanting high end at affordable prices, well I would expect both these products to be mentioned and awareness raised much more often.

The Cambridge Audio 851 (both integrated amp and CD) won the EISA awards here in Europe, with HiFi News review saying:

A score of 86% is pretty exceptional in Hi Fi news.

So the challenge to those focusing on bang vs buck is to go out and listen to these and then start promoting both the Vincent and CA Azure 851 combo (and 851 CD separately due to is great flexibility-functionality); the scary part is maybe just maybe this puts all products (at nearly all price ranges as these with the Vincent set benchmark bridging both the cheaper and more expensive products) under the microscope and not just high end eh
Cheers
Orb

It's rather striking to see you talk down to folks who actually use their own ears to assess the concept of goodness, by once again pointing at gear you've never heard. Embarrassing, really.

 

[Orb]

It's rather striking to see you talk down to folks who actually use their own ears to assess the concept of goodness, by once again pointing at gear you've never heard. Embarrassing, really.

Strange coming from you who has persistently spoken down at me or others interesting in more expensive products
I am actually being sarcastic to you btw and a few others that are rather vocal and do nothing to support their views in a practical way with best products in terms of bang for bucks that definitely bridge to high end; I look forward to you going out and auditioning both the Vincent and Cambridge Audio 851 models and then championing said product rather than spending time talking down others, who knows maybe you will purchase either the Vincent or CA 851 as they fit with your thoughts perfectly about cost and performance (and I agree both are incredibly well engineered and sound good - cannot comment much about Vincent sound though).

Orb

 

[Orb]

http://soundstagex.com/index.php/eq...-azur-851c-cd-player-dac-digital-preamplifier

Thanks Jeff, and hopefully this will be further expanded to possibly greater coverage in other parts of Soundstage network such as the more prominent SoundStage Hifi and possibly with your own thoughts of high end at the accessible spectrum Ultra.
I am sure I am not the only one to miss such excellent products in Soundstage due to not paying attention to Xperience compared to the other sites; what is the difference between Xperience and SoundStage Hi-Fi?

You mention earlier looking at what you deem affordable high end for under $10k I think, but really it is Vincent and this Cambridge Audio 851 that should be pushed as they are probably very close to the products you were thinking in terms of sound quality, while also a benchmark for products at a lower price to be measured against and strive to reach.

To all us (not directed at you Jeff); How many have really been enthusiastic and peristent with that support about the importance of both these brands and these particular models or actually taken notice of either.

Thanks
Orb

 

[Shaffer]

Strange coming from you who has persistently spoken down at me or others interesting in more expensive products

Is this some kind of a joke?

I am actually being sarcastic to you btw and a few others that are rather vocal and do nothing to support their views in a practical way; I look forward to you going out and auditioning both the Vincent and Cambridge Audio and then championing said product rather than spending time talking down others.

Orb

You have no idea what my views are, other than insisting on an audition before discussing a given product's sonic prowess.

Ironically, it is the extended auditioning that's assumed to be behind a $100K+ amplifier purchase, moving the listener in such a brutal manner that he doesn't mind spending the cash, his ears and their sophistication (for a lack of a better term) serving as the driving force. Here not so much, huh?

 

[Orb]

Shaffer,
both of us have said enough in the thread to know each other views, to say your posts do not represent them is well.....
But great carry on chastising me about my interest in products with less compromised engineering-sound at $5k (apart from a very few special products below this and a few others say T+A DAC) and then up to $15k, and also keep on ignoring the CA851 that sets standards in engineering,sound, and functionality that seriously puts pressure on all products including the ones you use or intend to buy
I guess that means you will ignore the reference products from Vincent and CA that redefine exceptional engineering considering bang for the bucks that puts all audio products under the microscope, as a few others will ignore as well.
My last words on this subject to you.
Orb

 

[Shaffer]

Shaffer,
both of us have said enough in the thread to know each other views, to say your posts do not represent them is well.....
But great carry on chastising me about my interest in products with less compromised engineering-sound at $5k+ (apart from a very few special products below this) and also keep on ignoring the CA851 that sets standards in engineering,sound, and functionality that seriously puts pressure on all products including the ones you use or intend to buy
I guess that means you will ignore the reference products from Vincent and CA that help to redefine exceptional bang for the bucks that puts all audio products under the microscope, as a few others will ignore as well.
My last words on this subject to you.
Orb

You weren't chastised for your interest in $5K+ products; you were chastised for insisting that entry-level starts at $5K+, while never having heard the products you chose to discuss.