The End Of A 35 Year Journey ---Zellaton -The Reference Ultra Final Frontier
- Thread starter Steve Williams
- Start date
whatever. 
asked and answered Patrick.
My suggestion is to start the other thread and have at it. I've done my due diligence on this one and I feel very comfortable with my decision
This thread is not about subs with Zellaton. You asked a question and got several answers and there are other here who want the issue of subs taken to a separate thread...or as Shakespeare said, " I wax poetic"
asked and answered Patrick.
My suggestion is to start the other thread and have at it. I've done my due diligence on this one and I feel very comfortable with my decision
This thread is not about subs with Zellaton. You asked a question and got several answers and there are other here who want the issue of subs taken to a separate thread...or as Shakespeare said, " I wax poetic"
Yes! They sound like foam, not even kidding
Those paper boxes have a distinct tube character
the question would be whether a completely ground up integrated two tower design using the high input signal for the bass towers has advantages over a cobbled full range speaker + separate subwoofer from another manufacturer.I spent a significant amount of time experimenting with high input versus low input signals for subwoofers. I also believed from others' comments that there's some magical synergy from an amplifier(s)' output to a sub versus a low output from a preamp. My JLA Fathoms only accomodate low input signals so I purchased from Jensen their best high to low output transformer - based converters, 1 per channel. The result is - there is no difference both from a scientific (measured via REW) or human sonic perspective. I even A B'd with the wife (she's getting good at it)
I'd be curious if anyone else has tried and compared, my gut says no, but the myth continues. ;-)
If so, and their efforts resulted in a sonic benefit, I'd love to know.
Steve - feel free to delete. ;-)
hard to know what the odd assembly of pieces is doing all around compared to the integrated design. is your comparison valid across different degrees of integration? or only in your particular case.
i'm no speaker or crossover designer so i have no idea. OTOH my speaker designer is actually an expert about it. i know what i hear, with multiple different amplifier designs. amazingly coherent bass performance....and true full range performance. but it is just one particular case. certainly in terms of simplicity having a high input signal source from the speaker terminal to the bass tower/sub is a much more elegant and less expensive approach as it eliminates a spendy long interconnect from the preamp to the bass towers/subwoofer.
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Fantastic. A few questions!
1. I see you have the legendary Chukoh...would love to know more about how you feel it compares. Presumably from AE in HK, have you heard the Robert Koda K15EX which they also have? I am an enormous fan of Zanden so always appreciate learning more about Yamada San's other work.
2. Have you heard the YS Sound amps? Some $600,000 I have read somewhere...but boy, the sound I heard from several recordings of different times YS has been paired with Zellaton seemed beguiling to say the least.
I wonder how our electronics (Zanden, Robert Koda amplification) would fare with the big Zellatons.
Thank you. The link provides 1 preamp and the distortion and frequency limits are extremes (minimal in audibility) as indicated by JA.
JL Audio F112v2 specs show 50ohms input impedance, Rel states their subs have, "higher than 100,000 ohms".
Of all the people including myself over decades, I know of only 1 scenario where the preamp had a problem driving amp(s) + subs, and that was a tube preamp that had only 1 pair of outputs and the gent split via a Y connection to connect the subs.
Some things don't require overthinking ...
Thanks to @audioquattr joining the team we have 3 distinctly different systems at our disposal.
1) Zellaton Ref - Trafomatic - Zanden
2) Cessaro Zeta - Alieno
3) Alsyvox Caravaggio - Conrad Johnson
Steve, let me belatedly congratulate you on the Ultras. As Steve mentioned, we share a common heritage – for 30 plus years, we both lived in the Wilson ecosystem, with tubed amplification. Steve took the Audio Research & Lamm route, while I took the path of VTL and Tenor tube/hybrid. I took my Zellaton ‘leap of faith’ in in 2022 and have never looked back. From the moment they were installed I never had a moment of doubt, never a moment of buyer’s remorse, and my admiration for them continues to grow.
However, Steve, if you're anything like me I think you're going to run into two big problems. First, when you get down to that last 30 days before delivery, you will spend every waking moment like a kid waiting for Christmas morning - it was painful. Second, when you get the speakers, I guarantee you that you are going to live in your listening room, re-experiencing all of your music. Therefore, if you have projects around the house, I suggest you get them done now.
As to the Zellatons, with all of the amazing speaker options, my Zellaton zealotry might come across as over-the-top, bolstered by confirmation bias. Yet sophisticated audiophiles with vastly different high-end systems have also come away just as impressed and some even stunned.
Although this post has done an excellent job describing the sound, let me emphasize three key Zellaton points:
- The top to bottom, “electrostatic” coherency, and seamlessness. I began my audio journey with Acoustats. Hearing music as a seamless singular whole, back then, was magical as was the original Quad mid-range. Add a sweet extended top end, deep bass resolution, and the power and range to pressurize the room to symphonic and hard rock levels, and you get a tantalizing insight into Zellaton sound.
- I originally heard the predecessor of Steve’s Ultras, the Reference, in Munich several years ago in an atrium room. I would classify the room as large – maybe 20’ x 40’ x 15’. Listening to familiar music, the low-end was rich, detailed, and powerful. My first reaction was to look for a subwoofer, with none to be found. Over the past year in my room (30’ x 20’ x 10’) I am not only in awe of the visceral power, but with their low-end resolution, the bass exceeds anything that I have ever heard. Nothing else is needed. Add extraordinary tonal color, beauty, spectacular imaging, and the ability to disappear into the music – you’re entering Zellaton heaven.
- All the above is merely academic but does not address the emotional connection to the music, which is the critical factor for me, and Zellaton nails it. I am fortunate to have some incredible copies of master tapes, and last Saturday we listened to The Best of Bread. When you're listening to music that you've heard hundreds of times and the emotion, resolution, and transparency cause involuntary gasps while listening, and you're left emotionally exhausted and speechless, just staring for minutes after the music ends, then there is something very special happening. The Zellatons connect you to the music.
(Sorry about any formatting issues, I still don't have all the site intricacies down pat.)
Steve, let me belatedly congratulate you on the Ultras. As Steve mentioned, we share a common heritage – for 30 plus years, we both lived in the Wilson ecosystem, with tubed amplification. Steve took the Audio Research & Lamm route, while I took the path of VTL and Tenor tube/hybrid. I took my Zellaton ‘leap of faith’ in in 2022 and have never looked back. From the moment they were installed I never had a moment of doubt, never a moment of buyer’s remorse, and my admiration for them continues to grow.
However, Steve, if you're anything like me I think you're going to run into two big problems. First, when you get down to that last 30 days before delivery, you will spend every waking moment like a kid waiting for Christmas morning - it was painful. Second, when you get the speakers, I guarantee you that you are going to live in your listening room, re-experiencing all of your music. Therefore, if you have projects around the house, I suggest you get them done now.
As to the Zellatons, with all of the amazing speaker options, my Zellaton zealotry might come across as over-the-top, bolstered by confirmation bias. Yet sophisticated audiophiles with vastly different high-end systems have also come away just as impressed and some even stunned.
Although this post has done an excellent job describing the sound, let me emphasize three key Zellaton points:
I've been fortunate to hear some of the very best speakers in the world. I am positive that when you get your speakers you will be in for an amazing journey.
- The top to bottom, “electrostatic” coherency, and seamlessness. I began my audio journey with Acoustats. Hearing music as a seamless singular whole, back then, was magical as was the original Quad mid-range. Add a sweet extended top end, deep bass resolution, and the power and range to pressurize the room to symphonic and hard rock levels, and you get a tantalizing insight into Zellaton sound.
- I originally heard the predecessor of Steve’s Ultras, the Reference, in Munich several years ago in an atrium room. I would classify the room as large – maybe 20’ x 40’ x 15’. Listening to familiar music, the low-end was rich, detailed, and powerful. My first reaction was to look for a subwoofer, with none to be found. Over the past year in my room (30’ x 20’ x 10’) I am not only in awe of the visceral power, but with their low-end resolution, the bass exceeds anything that I have ever heard. Nothing else is needed. Add extraordinary tonal color, beauty, spectacular imaging, and the ability to disappear into the music – you’re entering Zellaton heaven.
- All the above is merely academic but does not address the emotional connection to the music, which is the critical factor for me, and Zellaton nails it. I am fortunate to have some incredible copies of master tapes, and last Saturday we listened to The Best of Bread. When you're listening to music that you've heard hundreds of times and the emotion, resolution, and transparency cause involuntary gasps while listening, and you're left emotionally exhausted and speechless, just staring for minutes after the music ends, then there is something very special happening. The Zellatons connect you to the music.
What a beautiful and eloquent report, Mike! Thank you!
Mike
Thanks for adding some very important data points. I too started with electrostatics and what I heard was an emulation of quads in the midrange. What I also heard left no desire to have a sub in the system
I appreciate your input. Well stated
Thanks for adding some very important data points. I too started with electrostatics and what I heard was an emulation of quads in the midrange. What I also heard left no desire to have a sub in the system
I appreciate your input. Well stated
Fantastic description! Sounds beguiling! Would like to hear them someday. BTW, did you ever happen to hear the YS Sounds amplification when you have heard these? I am equally if not more interested in learning more about those! Insanely expensive even by high end audio standards...600K for amp? Their 988 amp looks like a sleek Boulder 3060...and appears to be nearly the same volume in size.Steve, let me belatedly congratulate you on the Ultras. As Steve mentioned, we share a common heritage – for 30 plus years, we both lived in the Wilson ecosystem, with tubed amplification. Steve took the Audio Research & Lamm route, while I took the path of VTL and Tenor tube/hybrid. I took my Zellaton ‘leap of faith’ in in 2022 and have never looked back. From the moment they were installed I never had a moment of doubt, never a moment of buyer’s remorse, and my admiration for them continues to grow.
However, Steve, if you're anything like me I think you're going to run into two big problems. First, when you get down to that last 30 days before delivery, you will spend every waking moment like a kid waiting for Christmas morning - it was painful. Second, when you get the speakers, I guarantee you that you are going to live in your listening room, re-experiencing all of your music. Therefore, if you have projects around the house, I suggest you get them done now.
As to the Zellatons, with all of the amazing speaker options, my Zellaton zealotry might come across as over-the-top, bolstered by confirmation bias. Yet sophisticated audiophiles with vastly different high-end systems have also come away just as impressed and some even stunned.
Although this post has done an excellent job describing the sound, let me emphasize three key Zellaton points:
I've been fortunate to hear some of the very best speakers in the world. I am positive that when you get your speakers you will be in for an amazing journey. Hopefully, I can wrangle an invitation to hear the Ultras!
- The top to bottom, “electrostatic” coherency, and seamlessness. I began my audio journey with Acoustats. Hearing music as a seamless singular whole, back then, was magical as was the original Quad mid-range. Add a sweet extended top end, deep bass resolution, and the power and range to pressurize the room to symphonic and hard rock levels, and you get a tantalizing insight into Zellaton sound.
- I originally heard the predecessor of Steve’s Ultras, the Reference, in Munich several years ago in an atrium room. I would classify the room as large – maybe 20’ x 40’ x 15’. Listening to familiar music, the low-end was rich, detailed, and powerful. My first reaction was to look for a subwoofer, with none to be found. Over the past year in my room (30’ x 20’ x 10’) I am not only in awe of the visceral power, but with their low-end resolution, the bass exceeds anything that I have ever heard. Nothing else is needed. Add extraordinary tonal color, beauty, spectacular imaging, and the ability to disappear into the music – you’re entering Zellaton heaven.
- All the above is merely academic but does not address the emotional connection to the music, which is the critical factor for me, and Zellaton nails it. I am fortunate to have some incredible copies of master tapes, and last Saturday we listened to The Best of Bread. When you're listening to music that you've heard hundreds of times and the emotion, resolution, and transparency cause involuntary gasps while listening, and you're left emotionally exhausted and speechless, just staring for minutes after the music ends, then there is something very special happening. The Zellatons connect you to the music.
(Sorry about any formatting issues, I still don't have all the site intricacies down pat.)
Somehow there is something about the sound of all of the videos with the Zellaton and YS Sound that intuitively makes me want to know more about both the YS Sound and Zellaton.
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Mike, a little off topic, but you mention that your room measures 10 x 20 x 30, which is sort of the worst case scenario for stacking room modes (a rectangle where H, W, and L are multiples of each other) leading standing waves. Since you are apparently getting great sound on the space, could you share what room treatments you have implemented to address that issue?Steve, let me belatedly congratulate you on the Ultras. As Steve mentioned, we share a common heritage – for 30 plus years, we both lived in the Wilson ecosystem, with tubed amplification. Steve took the Audio Research & Lamm route, while I took the path of VTL and Tenor tube/hybrid. I took my Zellaton ‘leap of faith’ in in 2022 and have never looked back. From the moment they were installed I never had a moment of doubt, never a moment of buyer’s remorse, and my admiration for them continues to grow.
However, Steve, if you're anything like me I think you're going to run into two big problems. First, when you get down to that last 30 days before delivery, you will spend every waking moment like a kid waiting for Christmas morning - it was painful. Second, when you get the speakers, I guarantee you that you are going to live in your listening room, re-experiencing all of your music. Therefore, if you have projects around the house, I suggest you get them done now.
As to the Zellatons, with all of the amazing speaker options, my Zellaton zealotry might come across as over-the-top, bolstered by confirmation bias. Yet sophisticated audiophiles with vastly different high-end systems have also come away just as impressed and some even stunned.
Although this post has done an excellent job describing the sound, let me emphasize three key Zellaton points:
I've been fortunate to hear some of the very best speakers in the world. I am positive that when you get your speakers you will be in for an amazing journey. Hopefully, I can wrangle an invitation to hear the Ultras!
- The top to bottom, “electrostatic” coherency, and seamlessness. I began my audio journey with Acoustats. Hearing music as a seamless singular whole, back then, was magical as was the original Quad mid-range. Add a sweet extended top end, deep bass resolution, and the power and range to pressurize the room to symphonic and hard rock levels, and you get a tantalizing insight into Zellaton sound.
- I originally heard the predecessor of Steve’s Ultras, the Reference, in Munich several years ago in an atrium room. I would classify the room as large – maybe 20’ x 40’ x 15’. Listening to familiar music, the low-end was rich, detailed, and powerful. My first reaction was to look for a subwoofer, with none to be found. Over the past year in my room (30’ x 20’ x 10’) I am not only in awe of the visceral power, but with their low-end resolution, the bass exceeds anything that I have ever heard. Nothing else is needed. Add extraordinary tonal color, beauty, spectacular imaging, and the ability to disappear into the music – you’re entering Zellaton heaven.
- All the above is merely academic but does not address the emotional connection to the music, which is the critical factor for me, and Zellaton nails it. I am fortunate to have some incredible copies of master tapes, and last Saturday we listened to The Best of Bread. When you're listening to music that you've heard hundreds of times and the emotion, resolution, and transparency cause involuntary gasps while listening, and you're left emotionally exhausted and speechless, just staring for minutes after the music ends, then there is something very special happening. The Zellatons connect you to the music.
(Sorry about any formatting issues, I still don't have all the site intricacies down pat.)
Sorry about that .... I did not remember the exact room dimensions, so I just put approximate numbers off the top of my head. The 30x20x10 are just ballpark numbers. The room was custom designed by ASC (Acoustic Sciences). When designing the room, we took multiple size iterations and ran them through room optimization software to get the best dimensions possible for my space, in order to minimize room modes. ASC then brought in equipment and took sound measurements, analyzed it, and presented multiple possible room designs. The original picture of my room is on the ASC website homepage.
I chronicled the building of my room in a rather lengthy article on 6moons.com. That was 15 years ago, so the equipment and some of the tube traps have been upgraded, but the room construction remains unchanged. https://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/theroom/1.html
Current room:
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