The last turntable and the last CD

[Big Dog RJ]

Given your impressions I cannot help but wonder, RJ, if something is fundamentally wrong with your digital playback, but looking at your component list I don't have a clue what it might be (you do have a power conditioner, probably a good one (?)). Sorry, no offense intended, but why else do we perceive things so differently?

Peter A., in whose system I have heard the fantastic SME turntable, thinks that my system sounds very natural and unfatiguing -- a great compliment coming from an analog-only person. In fact he stated in the opening post of this thread about my system (emphases added):

"It can produce a sound which is both big and effortless when the recording is of large scale music, and it can sound intimate and personal when the recording is of a smaller scale. In both cases, it disappears, gets to the heart of the performance and portrays the music in an emotional and natural way."

Does that sound soul-less to you?

Ok Al! great stuff if your digital playback is going as smooth.

Sincerely mine is too, the McIntosh and my power conditioning cost around 12 grand alone! That is some good amount of Australian dollars well spent.
Again you are missing my point mate, I never said that I don't like my digital playback, the Mac Sacd unit always puts a smile on my face. It has plenty of depth and all those characteristics that you mentioned, yes!

Nearly all my audiophile mates, from here, as well as overseas, mostly from the UK and US, told me over and over again to include a TT in my system. From what I currently have the top of the line Quad stats, and top of the line C-J valve amplification, this is as musical as it gets... I certainly thought so when I bought my last McIntosh Cd unit for nearly 6.5 grand. My power conditioning is all Nordost and Thor, and those who have heard my system were quite impressed in the overall liveliness of sound.

I really didn't want to get back to phono since I never enjoyed it in the past. But that was nearly 21 years ago when I never had the high quality system of what I have now...
And then, I finally added a simple TT from Rega to start with but added a top line cartridge, and all I can say is that I was missing that true musicality factor from Lp's.
I never knew that this could be, since the majority of digital playback that has impressed me has been around the 20 grand mark price tag for separate transport and dac's. I even once owned the Weiss Dac, with a wadia transport. The McIntosh beat it hands down, and it was just a fraction of that cost...

I am very happy with the mac, and will still listen to it, no doubt! However, I will not buy another Cd, hence my thread title... "the last cd" and that last Cd from Russel Mallone is defective! Not having "soul" may sound a bit harsh to you, but this is my opinion. I was listening to Casandra Wilson's Traveling Miles late until 4am! I could actually reach out and touch the musicians one by one and feel part of the soundstage! It is that remarkable, the whole performance kind of lifted out of the floor and came out forward into the listening room and filled the room front to back with HUGE depth and presence that I don't get from the same dam Cd! I tried it several times on several occasions, also with the good wife and cat listening by my side. Both agreed!

Anyway, as long as you're enjoying your music that's the main thing. I am surely enjoying mine, and cannot ever think that digital will ever surpass phono.
We are geared and made with analogue, hence when we hear great analogue we know and recognize it. When something sounds somewhat artificial or lacks that soul, has far too much "compression" I can surely identify it! The day we are robots or have metal parts to our auditory systems, then yes perhaps digital would be fine...

I know one thing for sure, I have just placed an order for 23 Lp's to the goldmine store and will continue to go down the phono road for as long as my hearing would allow it...
Cheers to phono! and of course great digital! Ok Al?
RJ

 

[XV-1]

Always good to hear about a digital boi rediscovering or discovering vinyl again.

All I can say is. - There is magic in them Grooves.

 

[Al M.]

Anyway, as long as you're enjoying your music that's the main thing. I am surely enjoying mine, and cannot ever think that digital will ever surpass phono.

There we agree. I don't think that digital will surpass analog either. As I made clear in a previous post, I know that it is somewhat inferior to the best analog recordings/pressings on great equipment, I just don't think overall the difference is that significant (but darn, saxophone sounds so much better on LP indeed (1) ). On average though I think I enjoy digital more -- the poorness of pressing of analog is often too great; that is the glaring weak point of analog. Not everything is available as a high-quality or even 180 g LP (and certainly not the music/performances that I most listen to, and hell, most of it is not available on LP, period). If I'd listen to pop/rock mostly, like you appear to do, I might try to get as much 180 g material as I could on analog, but for jazz (except the classics), classical and classical avantgarde that is just not an option.

And boy, I can't stand the clicks and pops. I can enjoy analog for what it is on other people's systems, but if it were mine, the clicks and pops would drive me crazy. They did drive me crazy on my analog, in the pre-digital days, which is why I was happy with even early digital with all its faults. I switched and never looked back.

And again, I don't experience digital as lacking soul at all, and neither apparently do some analog fans who have heard my system.

But then, both analog and digital reproduction are vastly inferior to the real thing when it comes to the sound. The excellent concert last night showed again that the richness and impact of timbre of live music vastly surpasses any reproduction, but I knew that of course. Any live experience (unamplified live music, that is) pushes my nose into that fact. (2)

Cheers to phono! and of course great digital! Ok Al?
RJ

Cheers indeed, RJ!

_______________________


(1) On the other hand, the best reproduction of orchestral strings that I have heard on CD surpasses the best reproduction on analog that I have heard so far (but perhaps I haven't heard enough yet). Very surprising, since until I had my current DAC, CD could never get it right. Now for the first time I hear some of that silky inner sheen that is so characteristic for an orchestral violin section playing at low to middle volume. And I had thought that timbral information had been lost forever through the digital process. There is just so much more resolution in the CD format than I thought possible until recently.

(2) Yet the concert also showed once more how HARD some live instruments/textures can sound. Audiophiles who think everything needs to sound 'smooth' in order to sound musical simply have too little experience with live music. I bet if some of the sounds yesterday were able to be properly reproduced on a system (not possible), many audiophiles would think that the system sounds 'distorted'. That is one area where there is just too much confusion. Overall I think that digital does a better job of reproducing the natural hardness of music (brass!), with the exception of the best recordings/pressings on the very best LP playback, where analog is equal. Yet then, in the early days, there was artificial harshness overlaid on digital that obscured and distorted the usually better ability of digital to reproduce natural hardness, and which again muddled the debate. The debate digital vs. analog was always completely wrong -- it was usually just about taste. It should have been a debate digital vs. analog vs. (unamplified) live music, with live music being the arbiter.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Hello again RJ! - With regard to Adele and Amy Winehouse I should have mentioned I was referring to the standard release pressings, not the 180g you speak off. I've not been able to find those around here, although I've not really looked for them. Actually, I didn't even know they existed. Could you provide some info on yours?

 

[PeterA]

RJ, Congratulations on your newfound love for vinyl. I experienced a similar rediscovery of vinyl thirteen years ago and though I have heard good digital, it just is not as consistently emotionally involving for me. Your enthusiasm and love of music is clear from your posts.

The vinyl revival seems here to stay.

 

[Al M.]

I can't believe this.

Seriously.

I just listened again to the CD Unforeseen Blessings by The Leaders (recording from 1989, recently remastered), and boy, the tenor saxophone of Chico Freeman sounded so much more convincing than I had heard previously from any tenor saxophone on CD (as I said above, I found reproduction of sax the biggest gap to top analog). And especially the alto saxophone of Arthur Blythe sounded splendid!

Then I went back to an old John Coltrane recording, Trane's Blues. His tenor sax, while not sounding quite as good, also sounded much more convincing than i had ever heard before from that CD! Also his saxophone on Meditations sounds better and much more resolved in timbre than before. The improvement is not subtle, it's ludicrous. What before had sounded somewhat 'plasticky' now sounds much more real.

The difference? I now have a thick wool carpet in the area behind my speakers instead of the old one with synthetic fibers (acousticians generally say that natural fiber is better), which totally smoothed out my highs. In addition, I now have an ASC window plug in the window at the first reflection point behind my speakers (all my windows will have ASC plugs eventually). That shows again that acoustics is everything! (The window plug also significantly improved my bass.)

While sax still sounds better on LP, the gap between my digital and the top analog that I heard elsewhere just got a good bit smaller, again. And emotional involvement? You bet!

 

[MadFloyd]

What made the bigger difference - the carpet or the window plugs?

In which way did the window plugs improve the bass?

 

[Al M.]

What made the bigger difference - the carpet or the window plugs?

I'd have to test. I do know that even before inserting the window plug the new carpet noticeably smoothed out the highs, so I'd guess it may have the biggest effect on this issue.

In which way did the window plugs improve the bass?

More control and more power, and that just from the one window plug (the others still have to be delivered). The plug is in a strategically important position, however, in the window at the rear wall behind the speakers, and the subwoofer stands right next to the window on its left side. I also have somewhat more prominent midbass, not quite surprising since the main speakers have a passive radiator in the back that fires against the back wall, where the window is located.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey Big Dog RJ good call on the Rega P3! Believe it or not these are photos of my P3-24 but admittedly on performance enhancing drugs

View attachment 19501View attachment 19502View attachment 19503View attachment 19504

Hey mate, that gear looks awesome! I bet it has plenty of soul and character, would love to listen and learn something new from a system like this.

What phono stage are you using, is it a tube phono stage?
RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

RJ, Congratulations on your newfound love for vinyl. I experienced a similar rediscovery of vinyl thirteen years ago and though I have heard good digital, it just is not as consistently emotionally involving for me. Your enthusiasm and love of music is clear from your posts.

The vinyl revival seems here to stay.

Yes indeed mate! The musicality factor and that other significant trait of phono sounding more emotionally involving is the key. It is far superior by a famargin compared to digital, and I thought digital was the best until I began to truly appreciate the way vinyl coveys music, in its purest natural form.

99.9% of my listening is to jazz, small ensembles and vocals. Some of the best cd & sacd I have are from diana kkall and Casandra Wilson, I have heard both of them live here in Melbourne, and all I can say is that the lp is far superior. More closer to the natural timbres of their voices and when the musicians play soft it is soft, and when they want to play loud, it goes loud in a blink of an eye. Superb transient response. With digital I noticed that it is somewhat loud all the time and bass is more aparent for the entire track. With lp this modulates as the track is being played. yes those grooves and the needle do create magic!

Cheers, I just picked up Casandra Wilson's new moon daughter on 180g audiophile pressing, dam expensive but dam fine music! The best!
RJ

 

[Al M.]

99.9% of my listening is to jazz, small ensembles and vocals. Some of the best cd & sacd I have are from diana kkall and Casandra Wilson, I have heard both of them live here in Melbourne, and all I can say is that the lp is far superior. More closer to the natural timbres of their voices

Peter A. once brought a CD with Shirley Horn (or was it Diana Krall?) to my home and said it was an audiophile favorite. I couldn't believe how horribly, awesomely bad it sounded!! (Peter agreed with me.) I have never heard such a ludicrous white-out of timbre on female vocals on my system as from that "audiophile" (ha!!) CD; I bet the recording was audiophile and may sound great on LP, but the CD mastering was just ridiculously bad. Even the completely non-audiophile duet of Neil Diamond with Barbara Streisand ("You don't bring me flowers") that I put into the CD drawer afterwards sounded a 100 times better than that "audiophile" recording when it came to the female voice. On the other hand, another audiophile CD from a female vocalist, I think Rebecca Pidgeon, sounded stunningly natural in its vocal timbre, and it beat the vocal sound on the Diamond/Streisand duet by a mile.

It all depends on the mastering.

and when the musicians play soft it is soft, and when they want to play loud, it goes loud in a blink of an eye. Superb transient response. With digital I noticed that it is somewhat loud all the time and bass is more aparent for the entire track.

This sounds like another mastering problem on the digital side. Has nothing to do with the medium, and everything with its implementation. If I hear a horribly mediocre LP pressing that sounds diffuse and compressed on a great turntable (happened multiple times) then this also has nothing to do with the medium, and everything with its implementation.


Edit: clarification about Horn/Krall (?) CD.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey Johnny, the two lp's of Adele and Amy were a very special pressing from the store I bought the Rega TT from. They were using these two along with Miles Davis kind of blue album for there demos on the stradivari speakers, with all top line Arc gear.

I immediately borrowed these two from them and then gave a call to the Australian importer. They had just the two remaining! Go figure, I should have entered the power ball, may be my lucky day at the lottery!

These were the only lot ever imported into Australia, and they were ordered originally from England. I don't think these would be available in the US.

Most of the high-end 180g audiophile pressings are quite expensive in Australia, goes for around $80 each lp, that's nearly 4 times more compared to sacd.

At the end of the day, I guess it's all worth it, they sound absolutely incredible!
I truly hope they would last for a long time. ..

My father in law has a good collection of pristine lp's back in colombo, he said he would send across 20 of them next month. He's got titles such as Nat King Cole, Barbara Streisand, Clif Richards, Harry Bella Fonte, Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald, and Ray Brown. These are some of my favorites, can wait to give these numbers a spin!

Cheers, RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day mates,

It seems like I have stumbled upon something very interesting, and something that Al would relate more to.

I was just clearing out my non-usable/listenable cd collection last night, and dumped nearly 250 cd's at the Cash Converters. I only received just 50c per cd! Dam rip off, highway robbery I must say...
Anyway, whiles I was clearing off the shelves, I came across three particular cd's that I had not listened to on my new McIntosh player. I thought that I had listened to pretty much everything, which amounts to nearly 700... now it has dropped to just 363 thereabouts. Since everything was going high-res, DSD and HD tracks + SACD, I had totally omitted the very good recordings I did have on plain CD format!

The three titles were; Patricia Barber Night Club, Eva Cassidy and Kurt Elling Live at the Green Mill. They sounded fantastic! Plenty of depth, staging and well balanced sound indeed. It had a different kind of soul and character compared to the lp, and in fact the modulation and dynamics were very natural. Loud when played loud on transients and soft when required, and low and behold I started tapping the toes and playing the bass... Ok, so it seems like these are well recorded discs and way better than the some of the sacd collections that I have.

I have quite a lot from Chesky Records which are mighty fine, and a number of sacd's from Supreme Jazz that are also good, but no so great on other sacd's such as Opus Recordings.
Then there are a few from Max Jazz and premonition records including Blue Note that I just started playing all over again on the Mac system. They do sound good and very well mastered, these are simple standard 16bit, I do have two 24bit Japanese discs of Earl Klugh and George Benson's Collaboration, bloody fantastic!

So it seems like these are very pristine recordings and have a very different presentation compared to the others. This leaves me with the biggest question; how the hec are we supposed to know that it is a great recording until it is played on YOUR system at home?
I have requested for a demo at the store but this is through headphones, and you really cannot tell the difference. Hence, buying it and bringing it home would be a huge let down if it was a crappy recording.

So, now onto you Al, it seems like I did learn something new afterall, and thanks for that! I was just about to chuck these very good recordings out!
Cheers to you mate, and to digital!

BTW, still nothing beats the lp, ha!
Have a good one mate, RJ

 

[thedudeabides]

OK gentlemen, I'll tell it like it is, music off CD's has no soul! They sound "hollow".

If you're truly happy with your Cd playback, keep it that way and enjoy. However, I can bet on it that since your current system sounds pretty good coming off Cd's, just wait till you drop in an "entry level" TT such as either a Rega or Project, and you'll wonder what the hec is digital doing...

I have the very same exact Cd's and one on SACD, there not even close, as I said they all lack soul... I really don't think that digital will ever be able to deliver this "soul" because digital was not meant to do that.

RJ

HI RJ,

I read this stuff and I just shake my head. Maybe CD playback has no "soul" in your system. That does not mean this is applicable to all systems.

Gross generalizations and hyperbole are meaningless given that every system is different and everyone has their own biases.

You, nor anyone else for that matter, is the final arbiter of audio truth.

Best.

 

[thedudeabides]

The three titles were; Patricia Barber Night Club, Eva Cassidy and Kurt Elling Live at the Green Mill. They sounded fantastic! Plenty of depth, staging and well balanced sound indeed. It had a different kind of soul and character compared to the lp, and in fact the modulation and dynamics were very natural. Loud when played loud on transients and soft when required, and low and behold I started tapping the toes and playing the bass... Ok, so it seems like these are well recorded discs and way better than the some of the sacd collections that I have.

I have quite a lot from Chesky Records which are mighty fine, and a number of sacd's from Supreme Jazz that are also good, but no so great on other sacd's such as Opus Recordings.
Then there are a few from Max Jazz and premonition records including Blue Note that I just started playing all over again on the Mac system. They do sound good and very well mastered, these are simple standard 16bit, I do have two 24bit Japanese discs of Earl Klugh and George Benson's Collaboration, bloody fantastic!

I'm glad you've revisited your original position.

 

[es347]

I have something over 6500 albums...redbook...hi res....DSD...all as FLAC files being played thru a Lumin A1 and the sonics beat the snot out of what I was getting via an MCD500 player. No comparison, so although I thoroughly enjoy my analog front end I have no plans to abandon my digital collection...

 

[Al M.]

Since everything was going high-res, DSD and HD tracks + SACD, I had totally omitted the very good recordings I did have on plain CD format!

The three titles were; Patricia Barber Night Club, Eva Cassidy and Kurt Elling Live at the Green Mill. They sounded fantastic! Plenty of depth, staging and well balanced sound indeed. It had a different kind of soul and character compared to the lp, and in fact the modulation and dynamics were very natural. Loud when played loud on transients and soft when required, and low and behold I started tapping the toes and playing the bass... Ok, so it seems like these are well recorded discs and way better than the some of the sacd collections that I have.

Yes, as I argued before, it is less about the medium itself, rather than about its proper implementation. Good for you that you found these discs in your collection! Most of my classical CDs have plenty of depth and staging as well, especially since now the spatial information on all those CDs is properly resolved after removal of electronic noise by the implementation of external power supplies for my amps.

So, now onto you Al, it seems like I did learn something new afterall, and thanks for that! I was just about to chuck these very good recordings out!
Cheers to you mate, and to digital!

You're welcome, RJ, and cheers to you too and to great analog as well!

BTW, still nothing beats the lp, ha!

Depends on the material played on the turntable, which is often just not of the best sonic quality, but yes, at its very best LP is still superior.

(I am wondering though how I'll feel about this last statement after I have listened to the allegedly state-of-the-art Berkeley Reference DAC in my system, one of my next planned system upgrades. But this may take a while, first my house needs to be upgraded with new siding.)

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I prefer to look at RJ's thread and posts as "enthusiastic". The discovery or rediscovery of different media and it's impact on the "soul" in a positive way is something that we have all experienced (and vice-versa). I say let RJ revel in it.

Personally I happen to agree with him, but in fairness it should be said that my analog front-end is better than my digital one. I still do enjoy the digital side of my music listening experience however.

 

[es347]

Where the heck are your priorities man?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Where the heck are your priorities man?

Right now? Actually getting ready to make my killer Pasta Salad!


Oops...maybe that wasn't meant for me.....