The marvellous Martin Logan CLX ART – is definitely a work of “ART”

[Big Dog RJ]

Can one of you CLX owners tell me how to remove the top covering the crossover/interface network. I tried to figure it out yesterday but no luck. I haven't contacted ML, I just thought someone here would know.

Hey Brad, just wondering why would you want to open that section up? Is there something wrong with your CLX's crossover network?

Over the years, I have found that if something is not easily accessible, it simply means that it is not recommended for the owner to do so...
This is usually left to a qualified service tech, who would know what they're doing, and only if there was a certain problem with the speakers.

Just my 50 cents of thought and concern that someone wants to open up a crossover and especially on a system such as the CLX! (after all this is not a small pair of Warfadales...)

 

[Argonaut]

Brad...Its quite a PITA, you need to jiggle the top plate right then left, or vice versa, gently pulling at the same time.
RJ...I presume Brad is seeking to access the mid base +/- dip switch controls ?

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Brad...Its quite a PIA, you need to jiggle the top plate right then left, or vice versa, gently pulling at the same time.
RJ...I presume Brad is seeking to access the mid base +/- dip switch controls ?

oh! ok yes that would certainly make sense. I totally forgot this feature was available on the CLX'S and it is quite handy when called for fine tuning.

speaking of dip switches, similar to the Rega phono stage- the Aria has multiple array of such switches to fine tune the gain and impedence across various cartridge types. does come handy when you want to get serious about those nuances and subtle shadings especially through stats, marvelous indeed!
Enjoy your CLX'S mate, I think they are the best investment for the most natural music to be reproduced in your home (apart from my Quads of course, still love them dearly specially with the Cav45, full of fine detail that I had not experienced before).

Cheers RJ

 

[brad225]

Thanks, It is a combination of all mentioned with a large part of curiosity.

My EE friend that rebuilt my CLS IIz interfaces and I are wanting to see how it has changed over 20 years, plus a crossover added to it. I have NO intentions of changing anything inside in the foreseeable future.

It is the same as people wanting pictures of the inside of amps, preamps and DACs. We just want to see all the pretty parts connected together.

I will perform wiggling and lifting this afternoon. and see what is in side.

On another subject. I had 2 groups 6 members of our local Audiophile Club over on different days this weekend to hear the changes to my system in the last year. It is always interesting to see peoples musical interest and listening technique.
Those that immediately had to check the reverberation time of their hand clap on a meter and tell your room is all wrong before even hearing any music. To the if your ears aren't bleeding it probably isn't loud enough, I just plug my ears and ask them to be kind to my equipment. To "All you have is a flat plane of sound between the speakers. There is no depth of sound at all".
It is all fun and sometimes you get a laugh after the fact. If someone doesn't like my system I don't loose any sleep over it.

I think the CLX's are amazing.

 

[Argonaut]

You may or may not have perused the following thread Brad..

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/179196-martin-logan-clx-mods.html

 

[Big Dog RJ]

yes sir they are!

what!? some of your chappies said there is no depth? I think this bunch can be placed in the DAAP group (deaf as a post).

this is what I'm talking about- there are those who claim to be highly involved in music and its natural state in every form. but the reality is they don't have a clue of what to listen for nor how real music should be reproduced. they're probably after the "stage effect" that Kostas also referred to, and this is a very misleading representation of natural music.

depth, realism, scale and accurate staging are only a handful of attributes the CLX'S are capable of. listening to kostas system, his walls had no boundaries, the soundstage expanded well beyond the room front to back. jeeze if these guys think there is no depth and just a plane of sound between the speakers, I would have physically thrown them out! obviously they don't understand what exactly dipoles are...
I am impressed with your patience Brad!

yes, by far the CLX'S are not only amazing, the purity of tone and the seemless integration of well balanced bass presents an electrostat speaker system that is very involving such that it fully captures all the emotional elements of music, and this is by far one of the greatest achievements of the CLX.
don't invite those chaps again, I think they need a serious education in basic music fundamentals...
Cheers mate, RJ

 

[brad225]

Please don't take this as making fun of this person, just perspective.

He is an Audio Engineer that has designed and had built a pair of speakers that resemble satellite type speakers on stands. His have 2 satellites stacked on top of each other and they can be rotated independantly from one another to change the direction of the sound. Each of the 4 sides of both speakers have a pair of drivers making it somewhat like a typical of 2 way systems. I believe all 4 sides of each box can have the volume adjusted independently.

He mentioned a few times the importance of reflected sound that my room didn't have. His point of reference became much clearer when he talked about how good Bose 901 speakers were and that most people just don't know how to properly use them. When I looked as pictures of his listening room there were infact a pair of 901 setting against one wall.

My guess is we will never see eye to eye on sound and that's OK.

 

[KostasP.]

THE ART OF THE CLXs

They RESPECT the musical note ( vocal or instrumental ) more than the speakers that I have encountered, and they are many! The CLXs LEAST interfere and alter the musical note, because of their neutrality, linearity, resolution and transparency. They are faithful to the source and ruthlessly incisive and revealing.

They DO NOT exhibit any artificial warmth and humped \ exaggerated upper or mid-bass. If there is warmth or harmonic content on the RECORDING, they will reproduce it; they will NOT add it. This attribute is unfortunately not appreciated by a number of audiophiles, who, either by preference, pre-conception or conditioning interpret this as a weakness ( "lean and thin" are often the descriptives ). Of course, their preferences are respected but they unjustly blame the CLXs, instead of openly admitting and declaring their own sonic biases.

Micro-signal and spatial resolution, coupled with crystal-clear articulation and diction collectively ensure that the listener is almost having the "direct mike-feed" in his room. It then becomes automatically easier to immerse yourself in the unfolding of the musical event. Their presence and vividness render sound staging and imaging with depth, width and height ( the recording and listening room here are paramount ), almost placing the listener in the recorded space.

So brad225: Tell your pre-disposed friends that if depth or anything else is NOT on the recording, then don't expect the CLXs to "invent" it, for, this is the ART of the CLXs. And as I said in another post, what they do right, FAR OUTWEIGH what they do wrong. Enjoy them!

PS: the CLXs are, of course, not the only speakers with the attributes that I ascribe to them. I do not wish to be misunderstood nor misquoted. Cheers, Kostas.

 

[Argonaut]

An excellent summation Kostas.

 

[brad225]

I had another club member who's system consists of TAD 1 speakers, DarTZeel amp and pre and a large Studder professional reel to reel player and unnamed vinyl setup comment on one aspect of my system.

We had just finished listening to Guinevere By Crosby, Stills and Nash. It was a DSD version. He looked at me and said " I have listened to this numerous times but never heard someone to the left of the harmony tapping their foot to keep time".

That was not audible with my CLSIIz's.

At the risk of another strike of the poor motionless equine. Until you have heard these speakers in a good setup, you can't appreciate the quality of sound they are capable of.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

no doubt these are the best that I have heard properly set up and driven with a highly "matching" amplifier that renders them perfect as a line source.

hey Brad funny you mentioned the Bose 901, that was my very first set of speakers. infact I started out with the 301 and onto the 901. bought brand new from Singapore and with the help of my old pops, we virtw hand carried these two large unusual looking boxes through customs and finally landed safely in colombo. I was so excited, I thought these were the best in class that could produce music with my Nad pre-power set up.

I can very clearly remember back then, I really enjoyed music, listened for hours without worrying about the things we fuss over now (which make a huge difference), such as source, cabling, interconnects, power cords, AC mains, Dac's , wiring and so on. just popped in a cd and hit play and sat and listened.

how far we have come now to appreciate the most intricate details of the system as a whole that can alter overall performance to a great affect.

I remember sometimes the cd player (yamaha) didn't read discs and wouldn't close the tray properly either. with an extra clean and slight nudge on the tray, it would eventually close and play tunes! if that was to happen now, I'd throw a hissyfit!

eventually the 901's were sold to a chappy who managed a bar and had my 901's suspended from the ceiling with special chains supplied by Bose. sounded great and rocked the whole bar on Friday nights! he was using a Carver power amp to belt it out and boy did it pack a punch. distorted or not no one cared as long it was cranked out fully! I remember one day it rained non stop the entire weekend as it usually does in the tropics. that night the only music that kept going inspite of the band giving up due to their valve amp packing up, were the Bose 901's! They could take a real beating.

ah! those good old days...
Cheers to all and have a good one,
RJ

 

[microstrip]

(...) eventually the 901's were sold to a chappy who managed a bar and had my 901's suspended from the ceiling with special chains supplied by Bose (...)

More than once my high-end distributor has taken Bose 901's in part-exchange and every time I see them in in warehouse I feel really tempted by them, but fortunately I manage to resist. I still remember well the wonderful enveloping music they were producing in a bar 30 years ago, mainly jazz and country. As you say, no worrying at all with audiophile matters, even with tweeters!

Last time it was mint pair of 901 system V in walnut ... The damned blue speakers looked like new ...

 

[Big Dog RJ]

nice one Microstrip!
infact the majority of music played through the 901's was mostly reggae. belted out with a carver lightstar power amp (300 plus healthy watts in the good old days). sounded brilliant even though plenty of distortion and sound waves all over the country side...
Somehow suspending these things from the ceiling gave the sound a sort of projection type of wavefront into the listening area from above or for that matter the getting drunk area...

Anyway they never seemed to break down ever. just kept going every night until the wee hours of the morning. even high end doesn't match up to this ruggedness when handled roughly.
Nad and the lot brings back special memories of happy music giving days.
Cheers mate, RJ

 

[Zero000]

User211, what actually remains strange is your refusal to respond specifically to my posts . Once again it is your prerogative but a reflection and a blemish on your credibility. Harlequin's posts ( #111, #114 ), quoting Noel Kenwood's and Jeff Dorgay's findings\ measurements and interpretations collectively vindicate my own experiences as recounted in my posts.

As for this post. Take up your complaint directly with Pass Labs. Your Fourier Transform graphs did not "prove" anything and you failed to respond to my points raised in relation to these graphs. And as for ..." it doesn't do low bass and it will not capture the true nature of many instruments because it will not reproduce the LF content", for the very last time: identify the actual RECOREDED bass content (frequency and dB level ), NOT what you hear through subwoofers and then judge. Secondly, what are these ...MANY instruments that the CLXs cannot reproduce? In your previous posts, you were mentioning the double bass as one such instrument. Despite my very specific examples and facts about this instrument, you conveniently chose not to respond.

I do not masochistically listen to below 40 Hertz test tones nor to solos of pipe organ or piano confined to their lowest octaves. For me ( and everyone who has listened to them ), the QUALITY of the bass content - detail, definition, articulation, attack, agility and integration \ balance with the other spectrum ), constitutes one of their many attributes.

As for ML selling subs, I suggest that one reason may be to satisfy the "bass freaks" ( akin to "bass heads" preferring Beats cans or " drums" should I say ). Many crave extra SUB-produced ( pun intended! ) bass, in ADDITION to the recorded level of bass. This is, once again, their prerogative and I totally respect their preferences. If people wish to use ML subwoofers with CLXs, they can. It is NOT a prerequisite. A further suggestion may be audio-culturally related. I don't, for a minute, profess to be an audio Freud but it just may have something to do with "obsessive subwoofer behaviour". After all, we all have our own FETISHES!.

Finally, you had been a ML owner but, conveniently, you don't mention which model. I doubt that you've lived with the CLXs. And yes, I did read your impressions of the CLXs, not as an owner but a HI-FI show attendant, admitting that you were ..." elated because the CLX is fantastic" and that ... "because the CLX is a rich sounding speaker, you don't instantly think ( that ) they need a sub. They sound full and balanced. But when you think about it ( and here your Freudian subwoofer SUB- conscience takes over ) you realise that you aren't hearing any truly deep bass". Oh really! The expectations! The insecurity! And where has Freud hidden this truly deep bass?,,,,,,In the subwoofers!

Enjoy your system and your chosen music to their fullest and let us remind ourselves that intelligent people discuss, NOT argue! Very difficult to discuss in fora as our posts are invariably monologues.
Kind regards, Kostas.

PS: This will hopefully be my last post on this topic, as the "horse" has been flogged to death multiple times and the "inner sanctum" has highjacked it with its own Apogee agenda. The poor CLXs were just the excuse.

Jeff Dorgay used Descents with the CLX. It is well documented on the MLO forum. He even had the special CLX filter installed.

The temporal FFT does prove a lot. Your interpretation of both that and the FR response from the magazine posted and referenced by Harlequin also proves a lot. Do some reading up on frequency response and what it means.

The link to the show report includes a link to my system at the bottom of every post, where it is described in detail.

The PASS Labs remarks as stated by me are factual and true.

Deal with facts, Kostas, not bullshit.

Why get so emotional when I say it is a great speaker (with caveats like any other)?

 

[Argonaut]

Planning to experiment with the mid base boost switches (Not mentioned in the manual) contained within the CLX crossover, factory setting is flat however combinations of the two switch setting garners one +1dB or +2dB or Level 1, Level2 respectively? Not entirely certain due to a lack of official disclosure , therefore I am awaiting further information on this from ML Tech Support.

 

[brad225]

Look forward to hearing what you think.

I will try to wiggle the cover off today and have a look inside.

 

[Argonaut]

Look forward to hearing what you think.

I will try to wiggle the cover off today and have a look inside.

Brad....There is a small hex grub screw approx half way along the vertical rear panel, you need to release that first, then wriggle front to rear as there are two clips that mate the top panel into the main body of the crossover box.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Now that would be a good experiment. If these switches can alter the mid-bass towards your liking, perhaps that is another solution for personal settings.
The only draw back with such settings, for me in the past, is that they are not well suited for all types of music or different genres for that matter. The simple "purist approach" tends to suit me better, and gives me the highest level of musicality. Complicated systems and external crossovers does alter the purist approach one way or the other but again this is a personal preference.

I remember during one demo of the mighty Infinity IRS systems, it took a flight manual to turn the system on, and then wait for half a day to warm up for it to sound right... (same with Genesis and other 3-4 tower configs with multiple levels of amplification). I just prefer to turn a system on, wait a couple minutes for the kettle to boil, fix yourself a nice cuppa and sit back and enjoy your music!

Therefore, using panels with subs and so forth, that's great! Obviously different tastes and preferences in listening enjoyment. Subs that can closely match the speed of the panels would tend to struggle but nonetheless would certainly add more quantity towards LF content. This sort of config reminded me of a maggie MG20.7 system with two subs per channel. Overall dynamism was quite stunning and very powerful, a bit too much for me though, preferred the 20.7's on their own with an outstanding MC452 driving them.

Harlequin- have you tried any of these switches? Did it make a contribution positively or negatively? If at all, what were the outcomes?
Would be good to know, eventually leaning towards the CLX's down the line.

Also, would you be kind enough to explain the type of mid-bass produced according to the album / title you are listening to, so that I could get a better idea. So far for me- the upper bass to mids and all the way down are totally fantastic on the CLX's. It is very clean, goes pretty low when called for and extremely fast & dynamic- as you gentlemen have already experienced. Hence, my reluctance to actually give the Ethos a go, as this would only be a stepping stone towards the CLX. Might as well save up for that final purchase.

I was planning to head to an Ethos demo sometime next week, wanted to try them out with Pass amps along with CJ amplification on the panels. I am still pondering whether it would be worth it (dynamic active bass + panel towards a hybrid design) or just stick with full range stat bass, which I am already enjoying on the Quads and is plenty for me.

Was also wondering why the CLX owner's manual doesn't address this section of cross over adjustment? If it would help in personal settings for LF response, I think they should address it.
Cheers, RJ

 

[Argonaut]

RJ....Please note my amended post above, I wait upon a response from ML Tech Support.

 

[Argonaut]

Hmmmm, I still await a response from ML Tech Support, second email dispatched today.