The official audio myth busting thread

[RayDunzl]

1980 or so...

The challenge originally took the form of a taste test. At malls, shopping centers and other public locations, a Pepsi representative sets up a table with two white cups: one containing Pepsi and one with Coca-Cola. Shoppers are encouraged to taste both colas, and then select which drink they prefer. Then the representative reveals the two bottles so the taster can see whether they preferred Coke or Pepsi. The results of the test leaned toward a consensus that Pepsi was preferred by more Americans.

---

2015...

What are the top selling soft drinks in the USA?

The epic battle between Coke and Pepsi continues, but so far Coke still has the top spot.

 

[Blizzard]

I agree with the idea of recording from the phono output, and while I think I have read all these pages in this thread, I do want to remind that cartridges have spikes and spurious outputs (passed on by the phono amps) well out to 30khz and more. There are also low frequency anomalies (but digital handles those no problem), so just saying that those spurious high frequency signals if passed through a digital device with a steep filter will then not pass on to the rest of the analog chain, and henceforth there will be less IMD effects, so the broader the frequency range of the digital the better IMO for this test. Those HF signals can IMD back into the audio band and that may be audible depending on their amplitude etc. just sayin incase we have not thought that through.

Also, an astute listener will be able to hear the different noises from each replay of the LP, since LP sounds different each time it is played, so that is also a bit of a trouble spot in this test, LP NEVER plays the exact output each time.

Also, when you que into or end a song, the lp will have different noises in those quiet areas too, so that is another thing to consider due to the variability of LP playback.

I suppose if there's any flaws with how the digital copies are made, this will make it easier for the golden ears to tell which is the vinyl copy. All of the copies can be made prior to the event. The panel will just be there to audition the playback end. We will ensure beforehand that the digital copies are so good that the differences will be inaudible to our ears before the event.

The best way to setup the demo would be to have 2 rooms. The speakers can be setup in 1 room with all of the seating, and the speaker cables can run under a door behind them into another room with all of the electronic gear. We will take simultaneous video recordings of what's going on in the back room, at the same time as the listening room. After the listening session, and the panel has all voted which was which, the video of what went on in the back room can be viewed by the panel. This is when it will be revealed to them which format was which.

Following the event, both videos will be posted to this thread.

 

[spazmatron]

1980 or so...

The challenge originally took the form of a taste test. At malls, shopping centers and other public locations, a Pepsi representative sets up a table with two white cups: one containing Pepsi and one with Coca-Cola. Shoppers are encouraged to taste both colas, and then select which drink they prefer. Then the representative reveals the two bottles so the taster can see whether they preferred Coke or Pepsi. The results of the test leaned toward a consensus that Pepsi was preferred by more Americans.

---

2015...

What are the top selling soft drinks in the USA?

The epic battle between Coke and Pepsi continues, but so far Coke still has the top spot.

Don't worry Ray this story has a beautiful ending as both the Pepsi lovers and Coke loves unite in a the fight against type 2 diabetes

 

[amirm]

Don't worry Ray this story has a beautiful ending as both the Pepsi lovers and Coke loves unite in a the fight against type 2 diabetes

You crack me up Spaz .

 

[Blizzard]

1980 or so...

The challenge originally took the form of a taste test. At malls, shopping centers and other public locations, a Pepsi representative sets up a table with two white cups: one containing Pepsi and one with Coca-Cola. Shoppers are encouraged to taste both colas, and then select which drink they prefer. Then the representative reveals the two bottles so the taster can see whether they preferred Coke or Pepsi. The results of the test leaned toward a consensus that Pepsi was preferred by more Americans.

---

2015...

What are the top selling soft drinks in the USA?

The epic battle between Coke and Pepsi continues, but so far Coke still has the top spot.

But this test is more to see if the formats can be told apart, rather than better due to subjective tastes. The point is to see if digital today, is transparent enough to accurately reproduce the recorded event in a manner indistinguishable from the source to the trained human ear.

 

[Blizzard]

Don't worry Ray this story has a beautiful ending as both the Pepsi lovers and Coke loves unite in a the fight against type 2 diabetes

Unless of course they opted for the diet versions, if so they are likely experiencing other side effects instead such as:

Adverse reactions and side effects of aspartame include:

Eye
blindness in one or both eyes
decreased vision and/or other eye problems such as: blurring, bright flashes, squiggly lines, tunnel vision, decreased night vision
pain in one or both eyes
decreased tears
trouble with contact lenses
bulging eyes

Ear
tinnitus - ringing or buzzing sound
severe intolerance of noise
marked hearing impairment

Neurologic
epileptic seizures
headaches, migraines and (some severe)
dizziness, unsteadiness, both
confusion, memory loss, both
severe drowsiness and sleepiness
paresthesia or numbness of the limbs
severe slurring of speech
severe hyperactivity and restless legs
atypical facial pain
severe tremors

Psychological/Psychiatric
severe depression
irritability
aggression
anxiety
personality changes
insomnia
phobias

Chest
palpitations, tachycardia
shortness of breath
recent high blood pressure

Gastrointestinal
nausea
diarrhea, sometimes with blood in stools
abdominal pain
pain when swallowing

Skin and Allergies
itching without a rash
lip and mouth reactions
hives
aggravated respiratory allergies such as asthma

Endocrine and Metabolic
loss of control of diabetes
menstrual changes
marked thinning or loss of hair
marked weight loss
gradual weight gain
aggravated low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)
severe PMS

Other
frequency of voiding and burning during urination
excessive thirst, fluid retention, leg swelling, and bloating
increased susceptibility to infection

Additional Symptoms of Aspartame Toxicity include the most critical symptoms of all
death
irreversible brain damage
birth defects, including mental retardation
peptic ulcers
aspartame addiction and increased craving for sweets
hyperactivity in children
severe depression
aggressive behavior
suicidal tendencies

Aspartame may trigger, mimic, or cause the following illnesses:
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Epstein-Barr
Post-Polio Syndrome
Lyme Disease
Grave’s Disease
Meniere’s Disease
Alzheimer’s Disease
ALS
Epilepsy
Multiple Sclerosis (MS)
EMS
Hypothyroidism
Mercury sensitivity from Amalgam fillings
Fibromyalgia
Lupus
non-Hodgkins
Lymphoma
Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)


They say the only thing that can make a vinyl listening session better, is a crisp glass of diet cola

 

[RBFC]

We will ensure beforehand that the digital copies are so good that the differences will be inaudible to our ears before the event.

Statements such as this may tend to raise suspicions among those participating! One may have a working hypothesis for an experiment, but to "guarantee" the outcome poses a psychological bias. I applaud you for undertaking this... Making the test as indisputable as possible, so that no accusations of rigging, etc are possible, will be of benefit to the audiophile community.

Lee

 

[Gregadd]

Of course there is no wrong answer in preference test. Memory is hardly an issue
Let us mimic audiophile tests.
Pepsi is best. Coke is crap.

If Pepsi is better you shoul be able to identify it in a blind test. Now when you score 4 to 6 out of 10 trials You fail.


24

 

[amirm]

Unless of course they opted for the diet versions, if so they are likely experiencing other side effects instead such as:

Adverse reactions and side effects of aspartame include:...
Neurologic
epileptic seizures
headaches, migraines and (some severe)
dizziness, unsteadiness, both
confusion, memory loss, both
severe drowsiness and sleepiness
paresthesia or numbness of the limbs
severe slurring of speech
severe hyperactivity and restless legs
atypical facial pain
severe tremors

Psychological/Psychiatric
severe depression
irritability
aggression
anxiety
personality changes
insomnia
phobias
[...]
Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)

I have suffered all of this plus this one someone sent me in PM today: "People are saying you look like an ill kept hunched over old man. It's a shame what 10 hours in front of a computer screen does to one's heath."

I did drink diet coke for a while. So thanks for this. Any of our resident lawyers want to represent me in a case against Coke? I make the best victim you can find. I promise!

 

[Blizzard]

Statements such as this may tend to raise suspicions among those participating! One may have a working hypothesis for an experiment, but to "guarantee" the outcome poses a psychological bias. I applaud you for undertaking this... Making the test as indisputable as possible, so that no accusations of rigging, etc are possible, will be of benefit to the audiophile community.

Lee

It will take several hours to record all of the formats to perfection. Who want's to wait around through all of that? All the panel members can examine the gear before the listening session, as well as the complete session will be video recorded in both rooms simultaneously. Nothing will be rigged. You will be able to start both videos at the same time, and hear the same thing, only from different rooms. This will ensure the video's aren't edited either.

 

[spazmatron]

I am only 36 and already they are making films about me.

 

[Blizzard]

I have suffered all of this plus this one someone sent me in PM today: "People are saying you look like an ill kept hunched over old man. It's a shame what 10 hours in front of a computer screen does to one's heath."

I did drink diet coke for a while. So thanks for this. Any of our resident lawyers want to represent me in a case against Coke? I make the best victim you can find. I promise!

PM's like that are indisputable evidence that you're on the right track. If what you do on this forum is so insignificant, then it wouldn't be worth the effort for the complainer to even send a PM like that.

If a 2 year old calls you a dum dum head are you going to whine about it? Of course not, because it would be completely insignificant, because anyone with half a brain will know that the kid simply doesn't know any better.

Keep up the good work!!

 

[RBFC]

It will take several hours to record all of the formats to perfection. Who want's to wait around through all of that? All the panel members can examine the gear before the listening session, as well as the complete session will be video recorded in both rooms simultaneously. Nothing will be rigged. You will be able to start both videos at the same time, and hear the same thing, only from different rooms. This will ensure the video's aren't edited either.

I cannot participate in the test, so I am making comments based upon the statement made. Stating the outcome of the test in that manner reduces confidence in the methodology. Certainly, it would be wise for a few of the analog camp to be present for the recording session, as I'm sure that they would want to provide assurance to all that nothing questionable had occurred. Your assurance that no rigging would take place, in the face of "digital wins!", would be as believable as Harry Houdini telling the audience that all the locks and fasteners were authentic. Remove all doubt of cheating in this one easy way.

For the record, I am 100% digital at this point, so have no preference for the outcome beyond academic interest.

Lee

 

[Blizzard]

I cannot participate in the test, so I am making comments based upon the statement made. Stating the outcome of the test in that manner reduces confidence in the methodology. Certainly, it would be wise for a few of the analog camp to be present for the recording session, as I'm sure that they would want to provide assurance to all that nothing questionable had occurred. Your assurance that no rigging would take place, in the face of "digital wins!", would be as believable as Harry Houdini telling the audience that all the locks and fasteners were authentic. Remove all doubt of cheating in this one easy way.

For the record, I am 100% digital at this point, so have no preference for the outcome beyond academic interest.

Lee

It doesn't matter at all how the recordings are made. It's impossible to cheat unless you tell people the digital was digital, when it was really the vinyl.

What matters is if the tracks that are used for the audition, are actually played back with both a DAC, and turntable, and that the digital format resolutions are what they are said to be after the audition. We will have a video showing a needle being dropped onto a record and being played by through a turntable, phono stage, preamp and into an amp. And we will have a video showing files being cued up on a Windows based media player showing the format, as well as the format resolution. And you will be able to sync both video's from both rooms to ensure the timing is dead accurate between what went on in both rooms.

Then we will show a video of the results that were written on paper as voted by the panel

How much more evidence will we need than this to ensure it's not rigged? I'm open for suggestions, if anyone knows a better way.

 

[Gregadd]

I have suffered all of this plus this one someone sent me in PM today: "People are saying you look like an ill kept hunched over old man. It's a shame what 10 hours in front of a computer screen does to one's heath."

I did drink diet coke for a while. So thanks for this. Any of our resident lawyers want to represent me in a case against Coke? I make the best victim you can find. I promise!

I would like to represent you.
You are self proclaimed perfect in every way
It would be difficult to prove damages.

 

[PeterA]

It doesn't matter at all how the recordings are made. It's impossible to cheat unless you tell people the digital was digital, when it was really the vinyl.

What matters is if the tracks that are used for the audition, are actually played back with both a DAC, and turntable, and that the digital format resolutions are what they are said to be after the audition. We will have a video showing a needle being dropped onto a record and being played by through a turntable, phono stage, preamp and into an amp. And we will have a video showing files being cued up on a Windows based media player showing the format, as well as the format resolution. And you will be able to sync both video's from both rooms to ensure the timing is dead accurate between what went on in both rooms.

Then we will show a video of the results that were written on paper as voted by the panel

How much more evidence will we need than this to ensure it's not rigged? I'm open for suggestions, if anyone knows a better way.

All that sounds good, Blizzard. I was once listening to a test where both the vinyl and the digital were playing simultaneously and the host simply switched inputs on the pre amp and asked which format was currently being listened to. How will you assure that this can not happen during your test, or is this what you want to do? Will one source always be off when the other is on, and if so, how will that information be verified?

 

[Al M.]

Once again you refuse to understand what's been clearly explained in detail already a few times. Proving that it can replicate the sound of vinyl indistinguishable from the vinyl played back on a fine turntable, will also prove it can do the same with mic feeds and R2R master tape. Which will mean, it will be superior to vinyl, if making copies of R2R or mic feeds.

Blizzard, as you know I am a digital-only guy, so I have no personal emotional stake in believing vinyl is better. Yet unlike you I have heard SOTA analog, and in my opinion it easily beats most (not necessarily all) digital that I have heard so far, including mine. And one of my main problems with your attitude is that you have made grand and arrogant pronouncements about analog in the past on this board, even though you appear to never have heard SOTA analog in an optimized set-up. Perhaps you will be more careful in the future with pronouncements based on 'prinicipal technical grounds' that sound pretty dogmatic to me (and I for one am not against measurements, as a scientist -- a biochemist -- I perform them all the time).

Having said all that: I fully support you on this test. I don't understand why some vinyl guys here are so plain chickeny about it. Perhaps they really do lack the confidence.

I for one would love to know about the results. I would be able to learn a lot more about the diverse formats.

 

[FrantzM]

Blizzard, as you know I am a digital-only guy, so I have no personal emotional stake in believing vinyl is better. <snip>

Having said all that: I fully support you on this test. I don't understand why some vinyl guys here are so plain chickeny about it. Perhaps they really do lack the confidence.

I for one would love to know about the results. I would be able to learn a lot more about the diverse formats.

+1

 

[NorthStar]

I agree with the idea of recording from the phono output, and while I think I have read all these pages in this thread, I do want to remind that cartridges have spikes and spurious outputs (passed on by the phono amps) well out to 30khz and more. There are also low frequency anomalies (but digital handles those no problem), so just saying that those spurious high frequency signals if passed through a digital device with a steep filter will then not pass on to the rest of the analog chain, and henceforth there will be less IMD effects, so the broader the frequency range of the digital the better IMO for this test. Those HF signals can IMD back into the audio band and that may be audible depending on their amplitude etc. just sayin incase we have not thought that through.

Also, an astute listener will be able to hear the different noises from each replay of the LP, since LP sounds different each time it is played, so that is also a bit of a trouble spot in this test, LP NEVER plays the exact output each time.

Also, when you que into or end a song, the lp will have different noises in those quiet areas too, so that is another thing to consider due to the variability of LP playback.

Excellent post, and very true.

* Analog music listening is like a new discovery/experience each time. With digital that experience still exists (volume variations, state-of-mind, time and space), but to a lesser extent...IMO.

 

[Blizzard]

All that sounds good, Blizzard. I was once listening to a test where both the vinyl and the digital were playing simultaneously and the host simply switched inputs on the pre amp and asked which format was currently being listened to. How will you assure that this can not happen during your test? Will one source always be off when the other is on, and if so, how will that information be verified?

As I already said many times simultaneous live video will be running in both rooms pointing at the gear the whole time. You will be able to clearly see what's going on in the room. You will be able to see the needle drop on the record, and hear the sound coming out of the speakers. We can even zoom right in on the grooves in the record if you want. Do we need 4-5 camera's from different angles simultaneously recording? Is that what it would take? Wouldn't really need to as a single camera could probably capture the whole audio rig. The room can be examined by all members before the session. The vinyl guys can even hook everything up if they want.