The Return of Garrard!

jeff1225

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I agree this is a head-scratcher. Just to come at it from a slightly different perspective, SME has always been known for it's engineering ability. The 301 was originally designed and conceived as a motor unit. Why did SME decide to go full retro with a 3012 arm? The 301 withstands the test of time but the arm does not. Mating today's best MC cartridges with the low mass arm is dicey to say the least. Does SME envision that customers shelling out $16,000 are going to install vintage Shure cartridges with JICO styli or today's MM and SPU cartridges? One thing remains consistent; the SME turntables with their conical shaped suspension towers were always ugly (at least to my eye) and as others have noted, the plinth borrowed from Loricraft is likewise ugly. In conclusion, SME should have come to market with a 301 motor unit-only sold in a box just like the original for the end-user to select the arm and plinth of choice. Perhaps they are. Things are murky at best.

You've obviously not been following some of the best systems on this forum. While the arm on the new 301 is not a 3012 (it's a M2-12R), the 3012R has proved it can hold its own with many modern arms including the SAT.
 
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Fsonicsmith

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You've obviously not been following some of the best systems on this forum. While the arm on the new 301 is not a 3012 (it's a M2-12R), the 3012R has proved it can hold its own with many modern arms including the SAT.

Just what does it mean to "follow some of the best systems on this forum"? What does one have to do to "follow" someone else's system? Does that mean to accept some other poster's assertions that his or her system is indeed "best"? Does "follow" as an active verb mean keeping mental track of some form of evolution of someone else's system? And just what the heck is this preoccupation with "best" anyway? Who gets to decide what is best? I first discovered this forum about five years ago and I am able to discern that for the most part, the upper tier of the high end gets discussed here-so this Board is more or less at the other extreme of something like say, the Steve Hoffman forum. The Audiogon forum and many others in between these two extremes are the proud Bourgeoisie and here we are at the luxurious palace of the gilded elite. I get all that. But now lets get to the important thing. Yes I misspoke and arm is the M2-12R and not the 3012R, just what is your basis for claiming that the "3012R has proved it can hold its own with many modern arms including the SAT"? I grew up in the 70's using the 3009 improved and tried using it again with my TD124 six or seven years ago and while it can sound quite nice, it is not close to the many modern arms of today. That is my opinion and you are free to disagree. I readily acknowledge that had SME displayed their new rendition of the 301 with one of their modern SME arms there would have been a clash of aesthetics. I still maintain that they should have shown the product as a motor unit only but obviously no one cares what I think. I was trying to agree with others that paying $16,000 for a deck with a homely plinth and pre-selected arm is not the best way to re-launch the 301. As a footnote, I still have hard time accepting that the table in the photo is indeed new. The close ups of the serial number seem to belie that notion. If you go over to the turntable forum here and the "plinth for 301" thread you will see how I chose to go about the 301 in the modern era. I bought a NOS early grease bearing ivory rimless, added a solid brass main bearing from Peak HiFi in the UK, a solid brass platter from Peak HiFi, a PSU from Ray at Classic HiFi in the UK, a huge 60lb plinth from Russ Collinson of the UK, a 10.5" Reed 3P, and I am currently running a VdH Crimson XGW Stradivarius.
 

jeff1225

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member of What's Best Forum are preoccupied with the best, how ironic. I recommend that you check out the excellent systems on this forum that are using the SME 3012R.

I also recommend the use of paragraphs, they work great!
 
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Fsonicsmith

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Jun 25, 2015
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Not my first posts. Looks like this will be the 30th.
Aggressive?
I think claiming that the 3012R is as good as an SAT arm is pretty aggressive.
But I do-believe it or not-firmly believe in collegiality and not seeking conflict.
Most of my previous posts here pertained to a conflict, ironically enough.
I challenged MF's statements which though consistent, most recently pertained to the SAT product, that a 9" arm is inherently superior to an otherwise identical 12" arm on the basis of lesser moment of inertia.
Here is my personal "deal".
All said and done, I am not very opinionated as to loudspeakers, digital, cabling, power conditioning, accessories, phono stages, amps, or even preamps (though I do think the preamp is the second most important component after source). But my weakness if you will is with turntables. I have grown very opinionated as to turntables. As with most of us, I have not lived with the vast majority of the most revered decks, but I have encountered a good many of them at one time or another with the opportunity to hear them.
 

Bodhi

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I have to say i'm becoming a fan of Garrard idlers. Wonderful tradition and musicality. Welcome back!
 

Fsonicsmith

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I have to say i'm becoming a fan of Garrard idlers. Wonderful tradition and musicality. Welcome back!

I think Art Dudley captured the beauty of vintage idlers best when he wrote in fairly quick succession about the TD124 and then the 301. We can all agree that Art writes well. He knows prose. Both tables were crafted to last and deliver the goods. Art likes to share his dismay at disposable products and those that are built with questionable durability accompanied by high prices. The TD124 and 301 have withstood the test of time. Once they are properly serviced, they are good to go for fifty more years. The sound is punchy, forceful and dynamic. Belt drive decks tend to make me feel sleepy. I never feel sleepy listening to my two idlers.
 
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microstrip

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I think Art Dudley captured the beauty of vintage idlers best when he wrote in fairly quick succession about the TD124 and then the 301. We can all agree that Art writes well. He knows prose. Both tables were crafted to last and deliver the goods. Art likes to share his dismay at disposable products and those that are built with questionable durability accompanied by high prices. The TD124 and 301 have withstood the test of time. Once they are properly serviced, they are good to go for fifty more years. The sound is punchy, forceful and dynamic. Belt drive decks tend to make me feel sleepy. I never feel sleepy listening to my two idlers.

The TD124 includes a belt ... ;)
 

Folsom

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I've seen a good amount of utter disbelief among many people on other forums on this launch.
 

Bodhi

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I think Art Dudley captured the beauty of vintage idlers best when he wrote in fairly quick succession about the TD124 and then the 301. We can all agree that Art writes well. He knows prose. Both tables were crafted to last and deliver the goods. Art likes to share his dismay at disposable products and those that are built with questionable durability accompanied by high prices. The TD124 and 301 have withstood the test of time. Once they are properly serviced, they are good to go for fifty more years. The sound is punchy, forceful and dynamic. Belt drive decks tend to make me feel sleepy. I never feel sleepy listening to my two idlers.
I like Art Dudley's deadpan sense of humour. And he's spot on. I aim to buy well made, quality hifi gear which will last me atleast 20 years if well looked after and maintained. Garrard certainly fits that bill. Fyi, this is my dream tt I plan to own one day. It is a drool-worthy deck :cool:.
 
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Solypsa

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Since the SME 30xx arms are being discussed:

There are large differences between a 3009 improved and a 3012R in terms of effective mass and the cart range they were designed for. Avoiding 'whats best' lets just say that one is not applicable to current MC norms and the other is.
 

ddk

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Since the SME 30xx arms are being discussed:

There are large differences between a 3009 improved and a 3012R in terms of effective mass and the cart range they were designed for. Avoiding 'whats best' lets just say that one is not applicable to current MC norms and the other is.
While the 3012-R is best IME no problem using the 3009-R/3010-R with anything you can mount on the 3012-R. Compare them to any other 9"-10'ers on the market and see if you find anything that comes close to them sonically :).

david
 
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Solypsa

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For sure! I referenced the 'improved' since @Fsonicsmith did. Of course thats a different animal....
 
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108CY

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The sme 301 package consists of a refurbished 301 under the guidance of terry of loricraft audio, the plinth is a solid walnut, internally the unit uses some of the suspension ideas from the Sme model 10 and model 12 using the exact suspension material supported by stainless steel struts. The unit rests on custom made feet that are similar to the feet manufactured for the current line up of sme turntables. The unit is only to be sold with the sme M12R. Making a 301 from scratch would end retailing for far more than £12500 with all the margins involved more like £50k to £60k or there a bouts. Sme have opened a separate factory/workshop 3 weeks back, for garrard in swindon where the Garrard were originally located. All the engineered items will be produced at Mill Road steyning.
 

Folsom

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The sme 301 package consists of a refurbished 301 under the guidance of terry of loricraft audio, the plinth is a solid walnut, internally the unit uses some of the suspension ideas from the Sme model 10 and model 12 using the exact suspension material supported by stainless steel struts. The unit rests on custom made feet that are similar to the feet manufactured for the current line up of sme turntables. The unit is only to be sold with the sme M12R. Making a 301 from scratch would end retailing for far more than £12500 with all the margins involved more like £50k to £60k or there a bouts. Sme have opened a separate factory/workshop 3 weeks back, for garrard in swindon where the Garrard were originally located. All the engineered items will be produced at Mill Road steyning.

LOL so bad....
 

ddk

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The sme 301 package consists of a refurbished 301 under the guidance of terry of loricraft audio, the plinth is a solid walnut, internally the unit uses some of the suspension ideas from the Sme model 10 and model 12 using the exact suspension material supported by stainless steel struts. The unit rests on custom made feet that are similar to the feet manufactured for the current line up of sme turntables. The unit is only to be sold with the sme M12R. Making a 301 from scratch would end retailing for far more than £12500 with all the margins involved more like £50k to £60k or there a bouts. Sme have opened a separate factory/workshop 3 weeks back, for garrard in swindon where the Garrard were originally located. All the engineered items will be produced at Mill Road steyning.
Thanks for the update, so my initial reaction that unit didn’t look like a new production was right. I’m somewhat surprised since Terry’s 501 was a fine machine and I was hoping that’s what they had under the hood, £50k to £60k is a gross exaggeration! Given the price points of competition this deck’s target group is the lifestyle buyer, strange...
david
 
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jeff1225

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Thanks for the update, so my initial reaction that unit didn’t look like a new production was right. I’m somewhat surprised since Terry’s 501 was a fine machine and I was hoping that’s what they had under the hood, £50k to £60k is a gross exaggeration! Given the price points of competition this deck’s target group is the lifestyle buyer, strange...
david

David = 1, Jeff = 0.
 
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ferrari275

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Interesting thread!


Pictures of the new SME built Garrard with plinth. Approximate cost is $16K (shown here with SME M-12R.) Exciting times in vinyl reproduction!

With due respect, for similar investment $15k ish a person could have a Garrard 301 Classic Artisan Fidelity + Reed 3P. The pedestrian combo displayed does nothing for me. The finish.....ugh, need I say more. Also, that 301 in the press photo really does appear to be an original unit, not a reproduction, now confirmed to be the case by another member above.


Different market and different economies of scale today simple calculations don't apply. This is a luxury product today not a mass market item it used to be just look at what Artisan Fidelity gets for their refurbished units in direct sales to consumer. Also SME is higher end brand different market Project, Rega, etc. production volume is much lower than those companies and probably not interested in selling thousands more than they can handle anyway.

Well stated ddk.


Shindo has sold many of their 301's at $24,000. One method of establishing price is based on what you can sell and item for. Based on what Shindo has been able to sell a refurbished 301 for, SME's price is quite realistic.

A time existed when Shindo had no competition for their commercially modified Garrard 301's. That time has long passed. Today, that same product could not compete outside of brand loyalists. Have you ever seen the craftsmanship lurking inside, rather under one of those? Politely put, thanks, but no thanks. Playback, engineering quality & fit finish of an AF Garrard 301 Statement resides on another level entirely. My friend in Spain who I visited with the Shindo 301, nearly flipped when he came over to listen to the Statement.


In conclusion, SME should have come to market with a 301 motor unit-only sold in a box just like the original for the end-user to select the arm and plinth of choice.

fsonicsmith hit the proverbial nail on the head.
 
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