For sure... As far as more to come I saw their prototype streaming device and it's awesome. It's Roon based and will be around or under $1k. With Mr Jones determining if SQ is ok I'm sure it'll perform well too.
The State of High End Audio
- Thread starter FrantzM
- Start date
For sure... As far as more to come I saw their prototype streaming device and it's awesome. It's Roon based and will be around or under $1k. With Mr Jones determining if SQ is ok I'm sure it'll perform well too.
And I'll say to add EMOTIVA into that as well. Audiophiles tend to turn up their collective noses at this company, but it can't be argued that their stuff offers excellent price-to-performance standards. Customer service is outstanding as well.
I believe we had similar threads here in the past discussing this very same subject.
Bottom line: Some members already mentioned it, again, in this thread already...as long that there is a clientele (market) for it.
And! ...Talking about it is always fun. :b
Bottom line: Some members already mentioned it, again, in this thread already...as long that there is a clientele (market) for it.
And! ...Talking about it is always fun. :b
I can make a stereo for $10k that would probably have many of you dropping your jaws. (no used parts)
As easy as it is to look inside of equipment and judge it, I can't look inside the business so my judgements can be way off. It's important that product pricing fit a business model. Many, so many, of the small timers offering the best value for the money come and go. Perhaps to rhyme you could say "instead of grow." Part of the issue is that they can't expand on their business model at the prices they offer. The margins they operate in are painfully small.
When I see different businesses and their markups I ask questions like, do their employees get paid like utter slaves? (under $20/hr) Do they have employees that can carry the torch from time to time? Will they be around tomorrow? What markets are they in? Could they sell otherwise? Should I judge them poorly if the value of the physical parts is well beyond 10x the costs including labor, but their sound bests everyone else that cost less?
Do people want to pay more or less for a superior product? I don't actually think I know that, because superior is subjective and I assure you people do pay big markups often and happily while those businesses remain a business. But in general I'm not so sure how many "thieves" there actually are in the industry (there's been a few for sure). It's easy to see when you're getting a smoking deal. But sometimes I have to think, should I spend my money on someone who's committing infanticide with their business model? Is it good encouragement for the industry?
In no way can I argue the industry isn't having some problems with the fact a lot of people can't afford equipment. It's not hard to see on many levels because I can't afford to sell the equipment at prices many people can afford (while it remains the same product). My offering to them is DIY projects that allow them to experience true hifi, for a price that sure as **** ain't free, but it is doable for anyone that wants it. And these people building my projects will end up with a system that will impress anyone on this board. Still I get many of them asking about how much I'd charge to have a DIY project built for them, not one person has ever agreed to the price and hence exactly why I'm providing a DIY means.
As far as name dropping... I'll confirm what DaveC is saying about himself. There's no one on the planet that offers as much as he does for what he does. Honestly I hope he raises his prices some! I told him, and I'll tell everyone else here... I'll let you know when I hear something better than his D4, let alone see something that has a more sound engineering aspect to what's being used in it. Buy them while you can at the price he's offering, seriously.
As far as that speaker thread goes... I will say I think Vapor offers a lot more in their construction, driver quality, and finish than others in their price range. But their prices have been increasing some, justly, and they're looking at having some dealer models (and they should). But what I really like is that they aren't just a box. I see square boxes all day everywhere... I want some zen, feng shui, and the only way I can go that route personally is bookshelves (even somewhat regular box shaped work for me in this regard) or something interesting not box shaped. All in all I'd love to see Vapor expand, do the dealers, etc, and increase the employee size of their company. As that happens you'll see my advocacy increase.
The true problem isn't the industry... It's people conception of the job market, and what they themselves are worth. Let's say you are a middle income person with $140k a year. It feels like a LOT more money when you buy shoes from Fred Meyers... But once you start buying things that retain value, handmade stuff, not flashy, but from your country or another equivalent - not based on slave labor/NAFTA coercion etc - you realize you're not loaded, not crazy rich. Furniture prices for good furniture made by people that get paid respectfully is going to run you as much or more than a Toyota car, as another good example. That's the problem. That's the disconnect, wondering why your kid can't make more than **** after getting a home mortgage education straight out of high school, aka student loans, while you go to Target for furniture when you can afford not to... and then being curious why those young people aren't buying a stereo not made in China.
Hopefully as young people that have very different purchasing patterns come into the jobs that old people aren't leaving... it'll have a significant change on all of that. And then they can afford to take more interest in high in audio. But the audio companies must come to terms with the fact that young people, like me, aren't interested 1970's styling (I don't mean face-plate, I mean huge cumbersome appearances in rooms).
As easy as it is to look inside of equipment and judge it, I can't look inside the business so my judgements can be way off. It's important that product pricing fit a business model. Many, so many, of the small timers offering the best value for the money come and go. Perhaps to rhyme you could say "instead of grow." Part of the issue is that they can't expand on their business model at the prices they offer. The margins they operate in are painfully small.
When I see different businesses and their markups I ask questions like, do their employees get paid like utter slaves? (under $20/hr) Do they have employees that can carry the torch from time to time? Will they be around tomorrow? What markets are they in? Could they sell otherwise? Should I judge them poorly if the value of the physical parts is well beyond 10x the costs including labor, but their sound bests everyone else that cost less?
Do people want to pay more or less for a superior product? I don't actually think I know that, because superior is subjective and I assure you people do pay big markups often and happily while those businesses remain a business. But in general I'm not so sure how many "thieves" there actually are in the industry (there's been a few for sure). It's easy to see when you're getting a smoking deal. But sometimes I have to think, should I spend my money on someone who's committing infanticide with their business model? Is it good encouragement for the industry?
In no way can I argue the industry isn't having some problems with the fact a lot of people can't afford equipment. It's not hard to see on many levels because I can't afford to sell the equipment at prices many people can afford (while it remains the same product). My offering to them is DIY projects that allow them to experience true hifi, for a price that sure as **** ain't free, but it is doable for anyone that wants it. And these people building my projects will end up with a system that will impress anyone on this board. Still I get many of them asking about how much I'd charge to have a DIY project built for them, not one person has ever agreed to the price and hence exactly why I'm providing a DIY means.
As far as name dropping... I'll confirm what DaveC is saying about himself. There's no one on the planet that offers as much as he does for what he does. Honestly I hope he raises his prices some! I told him, and I'll tell everyone else here... I'll let you know when I hear something better than his D4, let alone see something that has a more sound engineering aspect to what's being used in it. Buy them while you can at the price he's offering, seriously.
As far as that speaker thread goes... I will say I think Vapor offers a lot more in their construction, driver quality, and finish than others in their price range. But their prices have been increasing some, justly, and they're looking at having some dealer models (and they should). But what I really like is that they aren't just a box. I see square boxes all day everywhere... I want some zen, feng shui, and the only way I can go that route personally is bookshelves (even somewhat regular box shaped work for me in this regard) or something interesting not box shaped. All in all I'd love to see Vapor expand, do the dealers, etc, and increase the employee size of their company. As that happens you'll see my advocacy increase.
The true problem isn't the industry... It's people conception of the job market, and what they themselves are worth. Let's say you are a middle income person with $140k a year. It feels like a LOT more money when you buy shoes from Fred Meyers... But once you start buying things that retain value, handmade stuff, not flashy, but from your country or another equivalent - not based on slave labor/NAFTA coercion etc - you realize you're not loaded, not crazy rich. Furniture prices for good furniture made by people that get paid respectfully is going to run you as much or more than a Toyota car, as another good example. That's the problem. That's the disconnect, wondering why your kid can't make more than **** after getting a home mortgage education straight out of high school, aka student loans, while you go to Target for furniture when you can afford not to... and then being curious why those young people aren't buying a stereo not made in China.
Hopefully as young people that have very different purchasing patterns come into the jobs that old people aren't leaving... it'll have a significant change on all of that. And then they can afford to take more interest in high in audio. But the audio companies must come to terms with the fact that young people, like me, aren't interested 1970's styling (I don't mean face-plate, I mean huge cumbersome appearances in rooms).
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Let say you are a big music lover, and your passion in life (one of them) is listening to music. ...Plus you are an "explorer" ... of all things high end.
...It is perfectly normal for you to have a high end hi-fi stereo system in the six digits...no sweat because you can also afford it.
Now, let say that your main passion is "quality" sound but on a budget level.
...Five digits sound system will give you that...no sweat either.
Now, let say that you are a student @ high school with music always playing wherever you are and you go.
...Four digits sound systems will give you that...amply.
Now, let say that your high end audio passion is in the collecting of vintage audio gear with a musical accent.
...Three digits won't get you total satisfaction...better aim higher just in case your passion becomes addictive. :b
* It's all relative. We all know that. We love what we play, we love what we have. ...And no matter where we came from and where we going.
We are who we are, what our own musical evolution brought to us...and our investment in it...time and finances. ...Plus! Research of the best (for us), and in accommodating our own lifestyle. Because after all that's our balance.
Now, let say that WBF would have strictly members in the high echelon (bracket) of the high end audio segment.
Hmmm...I wonder the actual percentage of that elite.
Question: Would it be preferable, or is a good mix of ultra high end with high end and mid end and low end a better overall recipe for discussion advancement...all in the pursuit of music listening satisfaction? It's a fair question; we just have to look in places where only ultra high end is the main "market direction".
I am simply discussing inside a thread where the subject of that discussion is to truly define high end audio...with its state today.
...And from various perspectives because it's all relative...as some members here already mentioned - high end is all over the field - and the oldest and newest audio technology advancements are today part of that state. There is always a market for it, and even more so because the used market allows more people to jump in.
Older high end gear is affordable today.
Question(s): Do we compare ourselves by what we have or by what we play? ...Or none? ...Or both? :b ...By the music we love? ...By the way it is reproduced? ...By the quality sound recording? ...From the artist musicians we listen to? ...By everything together under the best light we feel deep inside close to it?
The state of high end audio...which side of high end?
...It is perfectly normal for you to have a high end hi-fi stereo system in the six digits...no sweat because you can also afford it.
Now, let say that your main passion is "quality" sound but on a budget level.
...Five digits sound system will give you that...no sweat either.
Now, let say that you are a student @ high school with music always playing wherever you are and you go.
...Four digits sound systems will give you that...amply.
Now, let say that your high end audio passion is in the collecting of vintage audio gear with a musical accent.
...Three digits won't get you total satisfaction...better aim higher just in case your passion becomes addictive. :b
* It's all relative. We all know that. We love what we play, we love what we have. ...And no matter where we came from and where we going.
We are who we are, what our own musical evolution brought to us...and our investment in it...time and finances. ...Plus! Research of the best (for us), and in accommodating our own lifestyle. Because after all that's our balance.
Now, let say that WBF would have strictly members in the high echelon (bracket) of the high end audio segment.
Hmmm...I wonder the actual percentage of that elite.
Question: Would it be preferable, or is a good mix of ultra high end with high end and mid end and low end a better overall recipe for discussion advancement...all in the pursuit of music listening satisfaction? It's a fair question; we just have to look in places where only ultra high end is the main "market direction".
I am simply discussing inside a thread where the subject of that discussion is to truly define high end audio...with its state today.
...And from various perspectives because it's all relative...as some members here already mentioned - high end is all over the field - and the oldest and newest audio technology advancements are today part of that state. There is always a market for it, and even more so because the used market allows more people to jump in.
Older high end gear is affordable today.
Question(s): Do we compare ourselves by what we have or by what we play? ...Or none? ...Or both? :b ...By the music we love? ...By the way it is reproduced? ...By the quality sound recording? ...From the artist musicians we listen to? ...By everything together under the best light we feel deep inside close to it?
The state of high end audio...which side of high end?
The last sentence is key... most of the direct market businesses would do fine and make enough money if they had enough customers. But TBH many are only doing it on a part-time basis because of a lack of customers. My products are underpriced but I don't have much in the way of overhead, if I stay busy I'm making enough.
All this talk about someone having to spend 30k to get a good system is ridiculous. Not like there is anything wrong with spending 30k on a system. I just don't believe it is necessity. I think If someone shops the used audio market they can have a 20k system for about 10k. You would have to do you're research and due-diligence and be willing to be patient. But I believe it can happen.
I think a lot of people lose patience with building an audio system and think throwing money at it will solve their problem. Unfortunately audio doesn't work that way. You really need to educate yourself first.
When I started collecting coins as a kid I was buying just to buy. Luckily I met a dealer that told me to slow down. He said you need to read the books about coins before you ever buy a coin. That was the best advice I have ever received.
I think a lot of people lose patience with building an audio system and think throwing money at it will solve their problem. Unfortunately audio doesn't work that way. You really need to educate yourself first.
When I started collecting coins as a kid I was buying just to buy. Luckily I met a dealer that told me to slow down. He said you need to read the books about coins before you ever buy a coin. That was the best advice I have ever received.
Hi
I didn't know where to begin on this. This thread can quickly die or burst in Flames. It is about the price of Audio Equipment nad the state of affairs in High End Audio.
After a long hiatus during which I have been using only headphones with great pleasure I must add and frankly an education in tonal purity. I am ready to jump back into speaker-based systems. I simply don't like to throw money at a problem expecting a solution to raise from the ashes of burnt currency. I am an engineer by profession and prefer the approach of having a schedule and cost limit in building a system. It is my strong belief that such approach leads to rewarding and sustainable results. I hate to tweak constantly and to change equipment on a constant basis. I buy, optimize and just enjoy what I have if I can... This not about me but rather of the state of things in High End Audio. A luxury sector let's not fool ourselves in believing it is not that.
The idea of this thread came to me when Lee asked on his thread for a 12~14 K$ speakers and I could only come with a few perhaps 2 and of just one brand: Magnepan. I, then , noticed that most of the speakers I am considering at this point for my next system are over $20 K MSRP : Giya G3, G2 , G1, Magico Q3, Q5 and S7 with 2 exceptions Magnepan 3.7i and 20.7 i at respectively 5K and 15K ... Woah! This is a disconnect. Would "normal" folks who love music, care about a >20 K pair of speakers, let alone a $20,000 music system?
Then I noticed on Lee's thread that few unusual brand came up aside from Vapor Audio whose systems look like a Good deal but I saw no mention of, for the lack of a better words, outside of the box manufacturers such as Salk, Legacy, Emerald Physics, etc... Are they completely absent from the Audiophile psyche?
I believe some things bad happened between the birth of what we come to call High End Audio, late 70’s, early 80's and now, 30 years later. We may have lost our way. Once upon a time the Wilson Audio and the Lamm, et all, were garage affairs. Audio Magazines would go and listen to these garage affairs and give them the necessary exposure. Is it being done these days? Have we become so averse to risk as to go for what we consider the current day status quo? How will those other small, definitely unknown manufacturers ever come to the forefront? Are we getting so old as to become entirely risk-adverse and "orthodox"? Go with the conventional, the admitted? The agreed-upon? How we moving forward? Are we progressing? Will we come up with a better way to measure progress? One that is a consensus? Not a world of preferences of the very same brands, telling us they are making progress when it is simply a variation on an old theme? Will High End Audio grow to include younger people not the >50 that populate this board? Can this industry of ours grow?
And while we are on the them can we come up with a full range system for less than $30K… Digital , analogue, Digital and analogue? Would like to see some examples…
As usual full participation is welcomed even from you Blizz …. Just joking
A worthwhile, thoughtful post. My interest in music and audio developed in the mid-late 60s with AR, KLH and Dynaco components being my idea of appropriate purchases. I did move up market slowly but the steep rise of gear prices left me behind.
Sports cars, music and audio and nature photography are among my interests (and my wife's to a lesser extent.) Each hobby has a strong gearhead aspect and all have moved up market. I think of that gearhead aspect as a first world phenomenon. Upper middle class people with a strong flow of discretionary income make hobbies out of spending that money. Such people regularly swap gear because that's what interests them. They are day traders.
There are still buy-and-hold audiophiles but they don't make much noise on audiophile forums. They stretch to buy a system that lets them enjoy music with good sound for a long time. They don't have anything new to talk about for years. Some of those people have about the same income that they had 15 years ago. High end audio gear through dealers channels is mostly much more expensive now.
My own pattern has been to de-emphasize the gearhead aspect of my interests. I think hard about my requirements, do careful consumer research and buy gear that I expect to live with for years. We take car trips all over the American west but we keep cars until they need to be replaced. I last bought speakers in 2007 and 1998 but I bought classical music CDs at a steady clip for several decades. I have bought cameras and lenses as digital photography progressed but what I have is for the most part quite sufficient. We spent 6 weeks in Australia this year with nature photography as the main focus. We'll be doing much more foreign travel in coming years.
I see the high-end audio industry becoming less and less relevant to me. Brands like Audioengine (powered speakers), Audioquest (dragonly DAC), Emotiva (DACs and active speakers) and pro audio brands like Neuman (active speakers) are my present day equivalents for AR, KLH and Dynaco.
I'm glad I don't have to start over.
There is always improvement to be made as long as you are willing to spend more money. But that requires a budget.
I think you believe this but I will take a mediocre system in a spectacular room with DSP rather than a great system is a crappy [or less than great] room and no DSP.
I also believe you have posted that you agree with the assertion that the best spot in the room for low frequencies is almost never the best spot for the remainder of the frequencies. If you do believe that, then you will be wasting your money by purchasing a single speaker system capable of 20HZ to 20k HZ (IMHO).
Maggie's are musical but if you are OCD about pin point imaging, they are not your speaker.
If you believe a music reproduction system needs more than 2 channels, that will also control the direction you go since then the preamp/surround processor becomes a major system component and if get to pay for a bunch more speakers (and subs).
And when you "finally" get your system assembled, NEVER EVER go listen to any other system. EVER!!!
Have a great time on your journey. Better you than me.
There is always improvement to be made as long as you are willing to spend more money. But that requires a budget.
I think you believe this but I will take a mediocre system in a spectacular room with DSP rather than a great system is a crappy [or less than great] room and no DSP.
I also believe you have posted that you agree with the assertion that the best spot in the room for low frequencies is almost never the best spot for the remainder of the frequencies. If you do believe that, then you will be wasting your money by purchasing a single speaker system capable of 20HZ to 20k HZ (IMHO).
Maggie's are musical but if you are OCD about pin point imaging, they are not your speaker.
If you believe a music reproduction system needs more than 2 channels, that will also control the direction you go since then the preamp/surround processor becomes a major system component and if get to pay for a bunch more speakers (and subs).
And when you "finally" get your system assembled, NEVER EVER go listen to any other system. EVER!!!
Have a great time on your journey. Better you than me.
My questions were spontaneous, straight and forward, how they were felt in the moment. There is no definite choice but our own choice. We all have different journeys to reach a similar goal...and that is all.
Do we truly compare ourselves with ourselves? Sure we do; yesterday's sound system was different than today, and not necessarily better. ...The emotional musical impact was from another era and from another music genre(s). There is a piece of gear in constant change...the one inside us. That's the one we play different music and different emotions we get from, as compared to another time period. ...Time is high end, our hearing with time is mid end...
That's the high end...the internal one. And it can happen anytime. :b
For me it sure is.
well time is a human construct but i get what your saying and agree
We're just discussing; sharing new ideas and all that ? jazz. ...Just a new perspective/valid approach.
* I could find the other similar threads with that subject...but no need to...because today is new and those others threads were from another time.
This, is the one in the now, the newest one, in the year 2016. :b ...But I'm sure they all count equally and have some excellent inputs.
If I find a post that I think deserves high merit, from one of those older threads on this subject, in time I'll provide a link...
I think for 99.99% of all people living on our planet, High End Audio means expensive gear.
...The more expensive the more high end...ultra high end. ...Yes? :b
Do you like John Coltrane and Billie Holiday?
...The more expensive the more high end...ultra high end. ...Yes? :b
Do you like John Coltrane and Billie Holiday?
No. There is a lot of great product in the "high end," but that doesn't change the fact that most of it has about as much to do with "normal folks who love music" as a $20k watch has to do with telling time. "High end" doesn't even necessarily equate to high fidelity; it is a luxury category that has gotten more and more excessive over the decades, leaving an entire generation of music lovers behind. There's not even a broad market for "stereo systems" anymore, though there is a world full of music lovers who are prime targets for a big step up from earbuds and bluetooth speakers. Purite has it right; if you're looking for high fidelity stereo for reasonable dollars, look to pro audio. Small, active monitors, sub(s) and DSP will get you there for well under $10K. Is the "scale" not big enough for you? Move your chair.
Tim
check the music threads out and you will see what i like but yes to john coltrane though prefer ben webster, oh and i love bill evans if that helps
When you start exploring Billie Holiday you start exploring Higher End
I think mostly the market was like you describe 20-40 years ago except then there was no luxury ultra high end part of the business. Partly due to wealth concentrating much more at the upper end, partly because there are more hobbies to spend money on than in the past, and because technology allows manufacture of things not possible back then you have that dead middle zone and then the luxury, uber high end gear that seems to do much better than one would expect.
Some of the ultra expensive gear reminds me of being in grade school. You know when you said to your buddies, "man wouldn't be cool if somebody................". Fill in the blank with some way over the top, outrageous thing to build in some extreme manner. Wouldn't it be cool if your car had 2000 hp. Wouldn't it be cool if your speaker box was made from a solid block of aluminum. Wouldn't it be cool if your turntable platter weighed 200 lbs. Etc. etc. Only now, people actully build the outrageous equipment, and wealthy people line up to buy it. For most part it is really super duper gear. Still outrageous however.
Nothing wrong with that as long as people are available with the wealth to spare. I do wonder how far it will go. It seems to have blossomed outrageously in the past decade.
Interesting thread.
I suppose it depends on you value out of a music system, and what are you seeking? If all you listen to is Chamber music at low spl in a small room then you will most likely seek a very different system to one where you enjoy rock/electronica at high spl in a large room.
Similarly the question of analogue (vinyl, tape) or digital or both may depend, in some measure, on the format that most of your music is on, or that you enjoy listening to.And if you like putzing with computer audio, much like turntables, or prefer a simple disc spinner.
I tend to approach system building from a realistic perspective - that is what am I hoping to achieve and why is that? What particularly matters to me and what doesn't? So, for me I tend to listen to Classical / Jazz at low to moderate spl, often late at night. Occasionally I like to turn the wick up, particularly for large scale orchestral, but that isn't often. When I do I don't like any sense of constriction. In terms of absolute fidelity - well that is an angry beast to chase, and one which has a habit of leaving some wounds in its capture. Until a month or so ago I would have said analogue is the only real game in town for engagement at realistic spend levels. Now, with the advent of Roon + HG Player (thank you again Mike Davis for introducing me to this) and dsp to DSD 256 I am less so inclined, and feel you can finally achieve an engaging but transparent experience for a (relatively) modest spend - case in point the Merging + Nadac I own (sale pending) or Mytek Manhattan I just sold.
Speakers = hmmm; much harder. A great deal of speakers (and indeed music) only sound good once they reach a certain volume level. I tend to enjoy single driver or point source speakers, horn loaded or ported, and accept their limitations for their benefits. I prefer all things being equal a simple 2 way to a 3 way. But that is me. I also enjoy tubes more than SS. I muck about with ss but really my heart and soul will always be tubes. And horns.
But getting back to Frantz's question - the $ spend is all relative. Of course it is a hobby in large measure about spending money and the acquisitions that come from that. More doesn't always mean better, but usually does. And it will always be easier to spend 20k on a head fi rig that offers a level of fidelity well in excess of what a traditional system can achieve, but then you have to wear headphones.
You can immense enjoyment from an old Technics 1200 , a half decent MM cart (2M Black), an old Kenwood receiver which has had a service and a pair of Grado 60's for under $1k with a bunch of 60's and 70's records in good nick. I have several friends with record collections in the thousands, who have a "hi fi" rig that cost them less than $1000 second hand which they love and listen to 2-3 hours every day. I also know members of orchestra's with e.g. Denon mini systems, and who are perfectly happy with those. None of their choices are any less valid than mine.
Anyway, I don't tend to favour pro derived rigs because to me they don't sound very pleasing. And that is what I seek, a pleasing enjoyable experience. I don't really care if that is accurate or not. Which Is why I have always had a very soft spot for the Japanese esoterica - Shindo, Wavac, Mactone, Kodo etc. Besides if you have been in a recording studios (I have) it isn't to me a place of great hi fidelity. They tend to work in high spl, and in my experience pretty ordinary sound quality. They seek accuracy above everything else. I seek beauty above everything else.
Conspicuous consumption? I suppose when you are on a forum in large measure it is, or another way of looking at it is to share with others the joy of your purchases, and the joy of listening to music that comes with that. I value others experiences and occasionally pick up something among the posts that helps me in my journey.
Oh, and I write all this sitting in my lounge with my Tivoli Radio One playing back FM 102.5 Fine Music in glorious mono,listening to the rather wonderful Andreas Lidl, Bass viol sonata. with Vittorio Ghielmi, bass viol; Luca Pianca, lute.10:14. Content trumps all.
So all in all - there is no one road to your Damascus. There are many. Vive la différence.
I suppose it depends on you value out of a music system, and what are you seeking? If all you listen to is Chamber music at low spl in a small room then you will most likely seek a very different system to one where you enjoy rock/electronica at high spl in a large room.
Similarly the question of analogue (vinyl, tape) or digital or both may depend, in some measure, on the format that most of your music is on, or that you enjoy listening to.And if you like putzing with computer audio, much like turntables, or prefer a simple disc spinner.
I tend to approach system building from a realistic perspective - that is what am I hoping to achieve and why is that? What particularly matters to me and what doesn't? So, for me I tend to listen to Classical / Jazz at low to moderate spl, often late at night. Occasionally I like to turn the wick up, particularly for large scale orchestral, but that isn't often. When I do I don't like any sense of constriction. In terms of absolute fidelity - well that is an angry beast to chase, and one which has a habit of leaving some wounds in its capture. Until a month or so ago I would have said analogue is the only real game in town for engagement at realistic spend levels. Now, with the advent of Roon + HG Player (thank you again Mike Davis for introducing me to this) and dsp to DSD 256 I am less so inclined, and feel you can finally achieve an engaging but transparent experience for a (relatively) modest spend - case in point the Merging + Nadac I own (sale pending) or Mytek Manhattan I just sold.
Speakers = hmmm; much harder. A great deal of speakers (and indeed music) only sound good once they reach a certain volume level. I tend to enjoy single driver or point source speakers, horn loaded or ported, and accept their limitations for their benefits. I prefer all things being equal a simple 2 way to a 3 way. But that is me. I also enjoy tubes more than SS. I muck about with ss but really my heart and soul will always be tubes. And horns.
But getting back to Frantz's question - the $ spend is all relative. Of course it is a hobby in large measure about spending money and the acquisitions that come from that. More doesn't always mean better, but usually does. And it will always be easier to spend 20k on a head fi rig that offers a level of fidelity well in excess of what a traditional system can achieve, but then you have to wear headphones.
You can immense enjoyment from an old Technics 1200 , a half decent MM cart (2M Black), an old Kenwood receiver which has had a service and a pair of Grado 60's for under $1k with a bunch of 60's and 70's records in good nick. I have several friends with record collections in the thousands, who have a "hi fi" rig that cost them less than $1000 second hand which they love and listen to 2-3 hours every day. I also know members of orchestra's with e.g. Denon mini systems, and who are perfectly happy with those. None of their choices are any less valid than mine.
Anyway, I don't tend to favour pro derived rigs because to me they don't sound very pleasing. And that is what I seek, a pleasing enjoyable experience. I don't really care if that is accurate or not. Which Is why I have always had a very soft spot for the Japanese esoterica - Shindo, Wavac, Mactone, Kodo etc. Besides if you have been in a recording studios (I have) it isn't to me a place of great hi fidelity. They tend to work in high spl, and in my experience pretty ordinary sound quality. They seek accuracy above everything else. I seek beauty above everything else.
Conspicuous consumption? I suppose when you are on a forum in large measure it is, or another way of looking at it is to share with others the joy of your purchases, and the joy of listening to music that comes with that. I value others experiences and occasionally pick up something among the posts that helps me in my journey.
Oh, and I write all this sitting in my lounge with my Tivoli Radio One playing back FM 102.5 Fine Music in glorious mono,listening to the rather wonderful Andreas Lidl, Bass viol sonata. with Vittorio Ghielmi, bass viol; Luca Pianca, lute.10:14. Content trumps all.
So all in all - there is no one road to your Damascus. There are many. Vive la différence.
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Agreed, I have no problem with the ultra high end gear and it's a good thing that it can exist to push the limits of what's possible. I just lament the decline of the middle class that used to be able to afford more than they can now. It would be better for everyone if wealth was more evenly distributed.
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