The State of High End Audio

[audioguy]

It would be better for everyone if wealth was more evenly distributed.

Two comments:

(1) I was once told that if we were to gather up all of the wealth of all individuals (US) and distribute it equally among all US citizens, in 10 years, the wealth distribution would sit approximately where it did before the redistribution. And I believe that as well.

(2) And if (1) was not true, we have a larger problem: For the most part, very, very, very few even care about our passion. So even if they had more money for the redistribution, they would not be joining our hobby. iPod music is just fine, thank you very much. And I see nothing coming to dramatically change that. Waaaaaay too many other options now on which we can spend our time and our money.

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Peter

You would be pleasantly surprised at how good a sub 10K system can sound. I have a smaller living room system very similar to Tim's suggestion. It's a passive speaker set up with Revel Performa F206's with a subwoofer driven by an Emotiva preamp UPA-1 and a pair of Xpa-1L amps with an ERC-3 CD player. Sounds really good.

Rob

 

[PeterA]

Hi
I believe that flight toward increasingly higher prices and their deification on the altar of High End Audio by reviewers has created a perverse effect on the High End...So no it is not a matter of prices only although it is there and present at all times. It is a matter of our collective psyche. The way we perceive progress and more importantly the way we measure progress. It has an impact on the way we build our systems and the way our industry moves forward.

What do you suggest be done, Frantz? The industry is indeed changing, but there seem to be many options available to audiophiles. Things are operating more or less on the principles of a free market. How could it be any different and imagine what it would be like if it were no based on the free market. We have the internet to discuss new ideas and expose people to new products. Everyone is a reviewer now, so word gets out, and people are free to audition what they want and to buy what they like based on what they can afford and their own ideas about value.

Based on the systems that I have heard over the past twenty years or so, reproduction is actually getting better. Analog is getting better, and digital is getting better. Speakers are getting better. Yes, prices are going up, but some of these flagships may be what are keeping companies in business so my old electronics can continue to be serviced by the original maker and they retain some resale value.

I am actually optimistic that the industry is still as relevant as it is. Just look at CES and what is happening to record sales and the advancements of digital according to Blizzard et al. There is plenty of stuff to buy at all price points.

 

[DaveC]

Two comments:

(1) I was once told that if we were to gather up all of the wealth of all individuals (US) and distribute it equally among all US citizens, in 10 years, the wealth distribution would sit approximately where it did before the redistribution. And I believe that as well.

(2) And if (1) was not true, we have a larger problem: For the most part, very, very, very few even care about our passion. So even if they had more money for the redistribution, they would not be joining our hobby. iPod music is just fine, thank you very much. And I see nothing coming to dramatically change that. Waaaaaay too many other options now on which we can spend our time and our money.

Thanks for your speculation!

All it really takes is visiting other countries where wealth is distributed more evenly to notice it's benefits. I used to work in Denmark and despite the high taxes the standards of living are higher than in the US on average, there is far less crime, homelessness is only by choice and they are consistently ranked as among the happiest populations in the world. Just a quick example...

Anyway, I'm not going to debate this any further as it approaches territory that seems to make some people uncomfortable. I suggest we return to talking about HiFi.

 

[nc42acc]

I think this would be wise. I can see the train wreck coming.

Thanks for your speculation!

All it really takes is visiting other countries where wealth is distributed more evenly to notice it's benefits. I used to work in Denmark and despite the high taxes the standards of living are higher than in the US on average, there is far less crime, homelessness is only by choice and they are consistently ranked as among the happiest populations in the world. Just a quick example...

Anyway, I'm not going to debate this any further as it approaches territory that seems to make some people uncomfortable. I suggest we return to talking about HiFi.

 

[DaveC]

Hi
I believe that flight toward increasingly higher prices and their deification on the altar of High End Audio by reviewers has created a perverse effect on the High End. A few examples: I didn't know about Vapor Audio until its mention in a thread by DaveC this very 2016 year. From a person I know very well and owner of a superlative Audio System., their woodwork and finish is impressive and second to none, he hasn't unfortunately heard them yet. They manage to sell a full range speaker for about $13K and I am sure this price wasn't chosen by chance. I have never heard them so can't comment on their worth. I do however know that once they are heard they will be very "good for their price". It has become automatic in audiophile circle. SOTA in the mind of most audiophiles or as I see it in this forum is defined by a very vague number ... It has to be much higher than the median or maybe the average price... Must be a little bit higher than the usual price tag. So it is unlikely for example that a 10 K Tonearm will be considered SOTA since now there are many at $30K... It has to be very close to that new line in the sand or higher then it is SOTA... a $5000 tonearm? No way it could be SOTA nowadays, the ceiling has moved up. Of course a SOTA needs to be anointed by some authority... But the MSRP in itself lift the item to at least be worthy of the coveted SOTA status, even if the brand is unknown reputation of its designer is one of those exceptions that will have an audiophile drop their shyness toward new products then again those come at a commensurable price.
In such a cloudy environment and more insidiously in the absence of a metrics, what an innovative designer to do? Pricing his product to reach as many as possible therefore, relatively modestly is a sure way to have his product fall into the "good for its price" category, regardless of the inherent or tested (in the High End the surest way to be dismissed) qualities or superiority. I do see some exceptions mainly in the digital realm where it seems we are forced to admit that innovation is not price-related and those come and go rather quickly, so there is the Lampi being some kind of a king in the realm of DSD but it still seems somewhat not exactly perceived as to be at the level of the DSC (is that one DSD BTW?)
Brand has also an effect in High End Audio. Seriously good subwoofer brands such as SVS or Seaton will automatically not be worthy of the audiophile epithet, even less that of SOTA, Let’s not even talk about the Paradigm Sub1 or Sub2.. however potent these subwoofers (and they really are) they’re not audiophile enough, it is after all Paradigm… JL Audio managed to be seen as such but would have to bow for the Thor Hammer in most audiophile minds. Has anyone ever compared the two with same settings and same system in same room? No ..but the Thor Hammer is after from Wilson Audio so …
We are getting stale and frankly the SOTA is not advancing that much … Rather lateral moves. Different flavors except in speakers where Technology is affording us better drivers and better ways to integrate them (Read crossovers and cabinets). All that IMHO.
So no it is not a matter of prices only although it is there and present at all times. It is a matter of our collective psyche. The way we perceive progress and more importantly the way we measure progress. It has an impact on the way we build our systems and the way our industry moves forward.

Yes, the part I bolded has been quite a conundrum. What I'm thinking is to take my "no holds barred" design which is not for sale yet and market that through dealers, which will necessitate a much higher retail price. The design is complicated enough and difficult enough to produce it would have to be a few grand (for a pair of ic cables) sold direct and I'm not sure that's in the realm of folks looking for top value anymore, it would be best if it was much more expensive and sold through dealers who already sell extremely expensive gear. The fact that few if anyone has heard of many direct sales companies here on WBF is telling... telling me I need to sell through dealers.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Hello Peter

You would be pleasantly surprised at how good a sub 10K system can sound. I have a smaller living room system very similar to Tim's suggestion. It's a passive speaker set up with Revel Performa F206's with a subwoofer driven by an Emotiva preamp UPA-1 and a pair of Xpa-1L amps with an ERC-3 CD player. Sounds really good.

Rob

The Emotiva XPA power amps are wonderful. Have you heard the XPR-2?

 

[FrantzM]

Not a having a clear answer. I believe in the wisdom of well intetioned crowd and belive the answer can come from us...

I don't know how much things are getting better. When I see Old Lenco, Garrard, EMT, etc and what-have-you deemed SOTA. In digital that is true. Speakers? yes to a point ... but not entirely I am thinking about rebuilding the Old Apogee Diva , I have in storage . As for resale value I understand the need for it but I am sure Wilson Audio didn't come to be what it is now because of its resale value in the beginning when DAW was a writer at TAS and a recording Engineer. it was rather the quality of its products that elevated the brand to its present day status. Will we give this chance to other worthy companies? I am not seeing it. We are getting more and more entrenched in our ways and favorites (and dare I say safe brands) ... There seem to be few consensus but this one: More expensive= Better

 

[Blizzard]

Wow there sure is a lot of ways to spend a pile of money, for a mediocre system. After reading this thread, I think it's time for me to make a thread in Blizzard's corner, listing some complete systems that would destroy the 30k ones mentioned here for around 10k.

 

[nc42acc]

Well said Frantz. My absence from 2 channel audio for over 10 years made this very apparent when I returned.

Not a having a clear answer. I believe in the wisdom of well intetioned crowd and belive the answer can come from us...

I don't know how much things are getting better. When I see Old Lenco, Garrard, EMT, etc and what-have-you deemed SOTA. In digital that is true. Speakers? yes to a point ... but not entirely I am thinking about rebuilding the Old Apogee Diva , I have in storage . As for resale value I understand the need for it but I am sure Wilson Audio didn't come to be what it is now because of its resale value in the beginning when DAW was a writer at TAS and a recording Engineer. it was rather the quality of its products that elevated the brand to its present day status. Will we give this chance to other worthy companies? I am not seeing it. We are getting more and more entrenched in our ways and favorites (and dare I say safe brands) ... There seem to be few consensus but this one: More expensive= Better

 

[DaveC]

Wow there sure is a lot of ways to spend a pile of money, for a mediocre system. After reading this thread, I think it's time for me to make a thread in Blizzard's corner, listing some complete systems that would destroy the 30k ones mentioned here for around 10k.

No doubt... $4k on speakers and $15k on an amp? Really? IMO, one of the worst possible ways to spend $30k.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Well said Frantz. My absence from 2 channel audio for over 10 years made this very apparent when I returned.

Just to be clear...Apparent as a statement or truth?

 

[FrantzM]

Wow there sure is a lot of ways to spend a pile of money, for a mediocre system. After reading this thread, I think it's time for me to make a thread in Blizzard's corner, listing some complete systems that would destroy the 30k ones mentioned here for around 10k.

Here He comes

You had me waiting too long Man! Welcome !

 

[Blizzard]

Here He comes

You had me waiting too long Man! Welcome !

My last post here. I'm not allowed to post outside of Blizzard's corner. I'm taking a big risk even posting this. So if I disappear, you'll know why.

 

[nc42acc]

Johnny a perceived statement.

Just to be clear...Apparent as a statement or truth?

 

[PeterA]

Wow there sure is a lot of ways to spend a pile of money, for a mediocre system. After reading this thread, I think it's time for me to make a thread in Blizzard's corner, listing some complete systems that would destroy the 30k ones mentioned here for around 10k.

Your suggestions will be very welcome in your corner. I may soon be able to directly compare one of your highly recommended digital sources to a superb analog front end in what I consider to be a truly SOTA system. I will try to keep an open mind and ignore the expectation bias that you have created with your many posts. It should be very informative, and perhaps I will share my impressions with the forum.

This comparison may well inform me of the current state of the High End or what is in store in the future. I will keep an eye out for your complete system recommendations and perhaps you could suggest where we could hear examples of such systems.

 

[esldude]

And if you absolutely must go passive so you can reserve the right to screw up a good thing somewhere down the road, how about a Benchmark DAC pre ($2000), a Benchmark AHB2 ($3000), a pair of Revel M106 (<$2000) and a couple of Revel B1s ($1300). There. You'e got the music from the recording, tweak your room, your ears, your attitude to taste. Well under 10 grand. And jeez, that's just one example of very high fidelity without the high end price; you can get so close to this for half the money it isn't even funny. "High end" is a luxury category. Period.

Tim

No way bra! No way. AHB2 has SOTA measurements. Poor JA could hardly take the true measure of it because noise and distortion were near or below what his AP measuring gear could manage. Everyone knows what this system sounds like. It will simply be cold sterile fidelity. No way is that high end, no way! High end is not about high fidelity.

 

[esldude]

No doubt... $4k on speakers and $15k on an amp? Really? IMO, one of the worst possible ways to spend $30k.

Well, I was going to keep quiet and say nothing, but that is sure what I was thinking when reading it.

 

[asiufy]

No doubt... $4k on speakers and $15k on an amp? Really? IMO, one of the worst possible ways to spend $30k.

If you're talking about the darTZeel LHC-208, it's not "an amp". It's an integrated amp (thus, preamp too), DAC and streamer. And good luck finding something with that level of build quality (made in Switzerland), that sounds better, for less than $15k.

As for the $4k speakers, again, I don't know anything (new) that will sound as transparent and sheer impressive as the Evolutions.

DaveC, have you heard either, or you're just speculating, like Blizzard?

 

[DaveyF]

Not a having a clear answer. I believe in the wisdom of well intetioned crowd and belive the answer can come from us...

I don't know how much things are getting better. When I see Old Lenco, Garrard, EMT, etc and what-have-you deemed SOTA. In digital that is true. Speakers? yes to a point ... but not entirely I am thinking about rebuilding the Old Apogee Diva , I have in storage . As for resale value I understand the need for it but I am sure Wilson Audio didn't come to be what it is now because of its resale value in the beginning when DAW was a writer at TAS and a recording Engineer. it was rather the quality of its products that elevated the brand to its present day status. Will we give this chance to other worthy companies? I am not seeing it. We are getting more and more entrenched in our ways and favorites (and dare I say safe brands) ... There seem to be few consensus but this one: More expensive= Better

More expensive=Better. That is a very good point, Frantz. I was discussing marketing strategy with a well known manufacturer of audio electronics a few months back. Basically what is interesting was the fact that most of this companies production goes to the far east. More to the point is that the manufacturer told me that his dealers in the far east are consistently telling him to raise prices as high as possible. Apparently their market follows a simple dictum...the buyer acquires the gear only a) if it has a very high price and hopefully higher than the competing products and b) if it has a certain visual appeal ( which this manufacturer has been careful to maintain). Here's the interesting thing, the gear is rarely if ever listened to prior to purchase!!
I think a lot of us in the US and in Europe are used to the fact that we would buy based on what in the old days was a 'local' transaction... and as such the manufacturer's were cognizant of their 'local' market, whether that be a US market or a Euro market ( and would price their wares accordingly)...today due to the international market that all manufacturer's enjoy...particularly the far east market, the ability to increase pricing is more available than ever before.
The other comment that was interesting to me at the time from this manufacturer was this: " I really don't care too much about the US or Euro market anymore, my far east market is where it's at".