The State of High End Audio

[DaveC]

quick blizzard back to the cabin before the wolves come out.

Davec i am dissopointed.. was looking forward to your political manifesto.
your at a cross roads by the sounds of it re your ideas to expand and sell through a dealer network. they will want you to spend on marketing i would think that means less for other things like R&D, once you get up to the price level your speaking about brand safety/affermation really kicks in imo. though i spent crazy on unknown brand cable... then again i am 'weird'

its a hard one but lampi has done it. i dont know if thats been done without serious outside investment though. maybe some one here knows?

still they now will be thinking about expanding/ new buildings/ more staff higher over heads and different price points.. it never ends lol

how about you just stay as is

That would be my personal preference but the unfortunate truth is most people buy audio gear from dealers, not direct from small manufacturers like me. This seems to be more likely as the price of the equipment increases, so I have doubts as to whether it would be worth it at all to try to sell a more expensive cable than I offer now direct. And the people that would buy the cables in question aren't necessarily looking for the best value anyways... yes the cables will be more expensive through dealers but dealers do offer the level of service that is expected when you're willing to pay that much for your gear. I'm coming to the conclusion that selling through dealers is necessary if I want to ever be taken seriously and not just have a good product "for the money" or yeah, ZenWave is a "great value [but the expensive brands are better]". It's BS, my cables have been preferred over Shunyata, Siltech, Wireworld, Tara, etc... almost EVERY TIME. Not just once or twice, I beat out the top end guys well over 90% of the time. Many of my customers make more money selling their old cables used than it costs them for my cables new. Yet despite that, it doesn't seem to matter. A huge majority of folks won't give me a chance so I see no alternative than "If you can't beat them, join them". So I will, and I'll market my new line of cables through dealers.

The above paragraph is true for most all direct sales companies, Vapor Audio is going to start selling through dealers and so will a lot of current direct marketed companies simply because selling direct doesn't seem to work that well in the audio business.

 

[DaveyF]

That would be my personal preference but the unfortunate truth is most people buy audio gear from dealers, not direct from small manufacturers like me. This seems to be more likely as the price of the equipment increases, so I have doubts as to whether it would be worth it at all to try to sell a more expensive cable than I offer now direct. And the people that would buy the cables in question aren't necessarily looking for the best value anyways... yes the cables will be more expensive through dealers but dealers do offer the level of service that is expected when you're willing to pay that much for your gear. I'm coming to the conclusion that selling through dealers is necessary if I want to ever be taken seriously and not just have a good product "for the money" or yeah, ZenWave is a "great value [but the expensive brands are better]". It's BS, my cables have been preferred over Shunyata, Siltech, Wireworld, Tara, etc... almost EVERY TIME. Not just once or twice, I beat out the top end guys well over 90% of the time. Many of my customers make more money selling their old cables used than it costs them for my cables new. Yet despite that, it doesn't seem to matter. A huge majority of folks won't give me a chance so I see no alternative than "If you can't beat them, join them". So I will, and I'll market my new line of cables through dealers.

The above paragraph is true for most all direct sales companies, Vapor Audio is going to start selling through dealers and so will a lot of current direct marketed companies simply because selling direct doesn't seem to work that well in the audio business.

Dave C, see my post above!

Hate to tell you, but if you are in the high end biz for profit only, ( nothing wrong with that) ...then what this manufacturer was telling me and what you are now postulating, makes perfect sense.

 

[Blizzard]

Your suggestions will be very welcome in your corner. I may soon be able to directly compare one of your highly recommended digital sources to a superb analog front end in what I consider to be a truly SOTA system. I will try to keep an open mind and ignore the expectation bias that you have created with your many posts. It should be very informative, and perhaps I will share my impressions with the forum.

This comparison may well inform me of the current state of the High End or what is in store in the future. I will keep an eye out for your complete system recommendations and perhaps you could suggest where we could hear examples of such systems.

Keep in mind the 8 year old DAC will have a bearing on the sound in that digital system. I didn't didnt recommend the DAC, it's just a way to send the audio to the DAC. So I wouldn't use that system as a reference for today's digital.

 

[PeterA]

Thanks for your speculation!

All it really takes is visiting other countries where wealth is distributed more evenly to notice it's benefits. I used to work in Denmark and despite the high taxes the standards of living are higher than in the US on average, there is far less crime, homelessness is only by choice and they are consistently ranked as among the happiest populations in the world. Just a quick example...

Anyway, I'm not going to debate this any further as it approaches territory that seems to make some people uncomfortable. I suggest we return to talking about HiFi.

I understand your analogy. Denmark is a small, homogenous society with an aging population which is not growing. High End Audio is a small, niche industry with unclear prospects for future growth. Both need new blood to remain healthy. Are you suggesting that the profits of successful companies like Apple, Sony, Harmon, Wilson, and Pass Labs be redistributed to smaller boutique garage based operations so that they have more money for R&D, marketing and distribution? Would that prop up the smaller companies at the expense of the large ones and also improve the quality of audio components? Would it be better for the industry?

Is the problem with the High End the separation/gap between the expensive SOTA gear and entry level products leaving the mid level unprofitable, under appreciated and forgotten? From recent posts in this thread and others, I'm getting the impression that extremely good sound can be had at a price point everywhere between the MP3/iPad/Bose box store gear and the >$30K systems. This is good news for audiophiles and should cause concern for the high end companies that rely on selling overpriced, lower performing gear. Shouldn't DaveC's cables worry the likes of Tara Labs, Synergistic, Transparent and MIT?

I see competition, based on the market, as good for this industry and good for the audiophile. DaveC, Blizzard and others who are breaking through have something to offer. The market and the audiophiles will determine whether or not they add value and become successful.

 

[DaveC]

If you're talking about the darTZeel LHC-208, it's not "an amp". It's an integrated amp (thus, preamp too), DAC and streamer. And good luck finding something with that level of build quality (made in Switzerland), that sounds better, for less than $15k.

As for the $4k speakers, again, I don't know anything (new) that will sound as transparent and sheer impressive as the Evolutions.

DaveC, have you heard either, or you're just speculating, like Blizzard?

Interesting, you're a dealer for the speakers in question...

I've heard MANY speakers that use Accuton and Raal drivers and while the Micro One is a great value, it lacks woofers and won't play the bottom two octaves at all and can't have decent impact in the bass or midbass region... it's just physically impossible, they lack the surface area to be a full range speaker. For a $30k system you can do a lot better... that I'm absolutely sure of. In the context of a $10 k system the speakers make more sense.

 

[Blizzard]

If you're talking about the darTZeel LHC-208, it's not "an amp". It's an integrated amp (thus, preamp too), DAC and streamer. And good luck finding something with that level of build quality (made in Switzerland), that sounds better, for less than $15k.

As for the $4k speakers, again, I don't know anything (new) that will sound as transparent and sheer impressive as the Evolutions.

DaveC, have you heard either, or you're just speculating, like Blizzard?

I could recommended a replacement for that Dartzeel costing around $4000, that I would put $1000 on beating in a blind test involving 10 experienced audiophiles.

 

[PeterA]

Keep in mind the 8 year old DAC will have a bearing on the sound in that digital system. I didn't didnt recommend the DAC, it's just a way to send the audio to the DAC. So I wouldn't use that system as a reference for today's digital.

You are mistaken about which digital system I will be listening to. It is not what you think. The DAC will be current SOTA according to one of your very own posts. But let's not start qualifying anything now. That time will come.

 

[DaveC]

I understand your analogy. Denmark is a small, homogenous society with an aging population which is not growing. High End Audio is a small, niche industry with unclear prospects for future growth. Both need new blood to remain healthy. Are you suggesting that the profits of successful companies like Apple, Sony, Harmon, Wilson, and Pass Labs be redistributed to smaller boutique garage based operations so that they have more money for R&D, marketing and distribution? Would that prop up the smaller companies at the expense of the large ones and also improve the quality of audio components? Would it be better for the industry?

Is the problem with the High End the separation/gap between the expensive SOTA gear and entry level products leaving the mid level unprofitable, under appreciated and forgotten? From recent posts in this thread and others, I'm getting the impression that extremely good sound can be had at a price point everywhere between the MP3/iPad/Bose box store gear and the >$30K systems. This is good news for audiophiles and should cause concern for the high end companies that rely on selling overpriced, lower performing gear. Shouldn't DaveC's cables worry the likes of Tara Labs, Synergistic, Transparent and MIT?

I see competition, based on the market, as good for this industry and good for the audiophile. DaveC, Blizzard and others who are breaking through have something to offer. The market and the audiophiles will determine whether or not they add value and become successful.

The bolded part? Absolutely not, that doesn't make any sense.

This whole thing about economics started because I said that the audio market mimics the financial markets in general... and there is a lot of truth to that. The decline of the middle class and the appearance of newly rich Asians have radically changed the audiophile market. The middle is in decline and what the middle class could afford before 2008 no longer sells at all.. The high end is out-of-control in a race to offer the most expensive, extravagent gear possible to a market who can afford it, and would rather pay even more.

My comment that we'd all be better off if wealth was more evenly distributed is wrt the world economic model in general... I'm not suggesting any sort of anything to accomplish this as it's veering too far OT.

 

[Blizzard]

You are mistaken about which digital system I will be listening to. It is not what you think. The DAC will be current SOTA according to one of your very own posts. But let's not start qualifying anything now. That time will come.

Well tell me what the DAC is then, if you are going to claim I recommended it. The Merging NADAC, used in conjunction with HQPLAYER resampling all audio to DSD 256, and connected to the server via fiber optics with the DAC side FMC powered by IFI Ipower?

If anything besides that, I didn't recommend. If it's the Merging HAPI, make sure a summing adapter is used on the DB25 output.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I could recommended a replacement for that Dartzeel costing around $4000, that I would put $1000 on beating in a blind test involving 10 experienced audiophiles.

so an 'off-the-shelf' at retail $4k dac-preamp-amplifier including remote and interconnects?

or some DIY one-off assembly?

 

[nc42acc]

A great article that takes in to account the thread title and Daveys post below.

http://audiophilereview.com/audiophile/china---high-performance-audio-as-a-status-symbol.html

More expensive=Better. That is a very good point, Frantz. I was discussing marketing strategy with a well known manufacturer of audio electronics a few months back. Basically what is interesting was the fact that most of this companies production goes to the far east. More to the point is that the manufacturer told me that his dealers in the far east are consistently telling him to raise prices as high as possible. Apparently their market follows a simple dictum...the buyer acquires the gear only a) if it has a very high price and hopefully higher than the competing products and b) if it has a certain visual appeal ( which this manufacturer has been careful to maintain). Here's the interesting thing, the gear is rarely if ever listened to prior to purchase!!
I think a lot of us in the US and in Europe are used to the fact that we would buy based on what in the old days was a 'local' transaction... and as such the manufacturer's were cognizant of their 'local' market, whether that be a US market or a Euro market ( and would price their wares accordingly)...today due to the international market that all manufacturer's enjoy...particularly the far east market, the ability to increase pricing is more available than ever before.
The other comment that was interesting to me at the time from this manufacturer was this: " I really don't care too much about the US or Euro market anymore, my far east market is where it's at".

 

[Folsom]

If you know the capability of the right <$10k system, and you have the objectivity to see it, you'll understand that the diminishing returns pale next to price-inflating preference. Preference for prestige. Preference for coloration. Preference for magic unmeasured, found in whatever you prefer, for whatever reasons.

Tim

I don't agree with this.

For others I'd like to point out, "more evenly distributed" doesn't mean "evenly distributed". There's a lot of people I don't wish to have any kind of wealth because it'll be used abusively only. That's half the reason they don't have it to start with.

Even distribution is... ridiculous. But not the slightest bit more ridiculous than expecting someone to live on 10-12/hr as an adult.

Personally I don't want to see government enforced "redistribution" that's bad business, bad politics, bad economics... Anyone that isn't a coffee shop feminist knows that it doesn't work like that. I say this because I believe this is a mature forum that doesn't need to be overly fearful of the unfortunately entwined nature of economics and a hobby.


I know this is on the politics side, but millennials are a thousand times more interested in audiophile equipment than generation X, and maybe surprisingly on par with baby-boomers; or exceeding. The issue is they can't buy any of it. Their shopping patterns (internet, research), love for unique hand made goods, vinyl, etc etc etc... makes it somewhat obvious to expect them to be a bigger populous of audiophiles. Many of them spend what little money they do have on band/recording equipment because they play music in droves. Don't under estimate them. This is my hope for the future. I have no desire to doom and gloom it, I'm looking at all the grand possibilities of intolerance towards **** sound every where

 

[Blizzard]

so an 'off-the-shelf' at retail $4k dac-preamp-amplifier?

or some DIY one-off assembly?

It will be 3 pieces instead of 1, and nothing DIY. Unless you consider installing software DIY. Amp, DAC and streamer. But of course the Dartzeel doesn't stream in the audio out of thin air, so we have to add a server of some type to the cost of the system.

 

[DaveC]

well davec i feel your pain, it still comes down to brand awareness imo. i did not know about you when i bought my kit.

IDEA

all you really good direct sales guys need a world wide platform... why not a WBF shop? a exclusive online presents that supports guys like you.

its win win though would need investiment. just a idea as us just moaning about hi end serves no one. we could do something about it.

It takes years to establish a brand identity and you're selling to folks who, in most cases, highly value that aspect. I am aware and figured it would take many years to establish my brand. It's ok, I'm not that old yet

We (some of us direct-sales brands) have considered joint marketing plans like you're talking about. There is some potential there for lower to middle end stuff. But I think high end gear is going to have to be sold through dealers to have any chance of success.

One example is my friend David's Natural Sound Group:

http://www.naturalsoundusa.com/

This makes a lot of sense to partner gear and offer complete systems where synergy has been tested and can be assured to the customer. I'll have to wait and see how they do with that model...

 

[Blizzard]

well davec i feel your pain, it still comes down to brand awareness imo. i did not know about you when i bought my kit.

IDEA

all you really good direct sales guys need a world wide platform... why not a WBF shop? a exclusive online presents that supports guys like you.

its win win though would need investiment. just a idea as us just moaning about hi end serves no one. we could do something about it.

Or they could simply click the link on this signature to his already very nicely laid out website

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It will be 3 pieces instead of 1, and nothing DIY. Unless you consider installing software DIY. Amp, DAC and streamer. But of course the Dartzeel doesn't stream in the audio out of thin air, so we have to add a server of some type to the cost of the system.

please list the pieces so we can all go buy them.

 

[nc42acc]

How long have you been in business Dave? Brand recognition takes time. You understand in this business it isn't what you know but who you know.

It takes years to establish a brand identity and you're selling to folks who, in most cases, highly value that aspect. I am aware and figured it would take many years to establish my brand. It's ok, I'm not that old yet

We (some of us direct-sales brands) have considered joint marketing plans like you're talking about. There is some potential there for lower to middle end stuff. But I think high end gear is going to have to be sold through dealers to have any chance of success.

One example is my friend David's Natural Sound Group:

http://www.naturalsoundusa.com/

This makes a lot of sense to partner gear and offer complete systems where synergy has been tested and can be assured to the customer. I'll have to wait and see how they do with that model...

 

[DaveC]

Dave C, see my post above!

Hate to tell you, but if you are in the high end biz for profit only, ( nothing wrong with that) ...then what this manufacturer was telling me and what you are now postulating, makes perfect sense.

I've talked to several designers/owners in the same boat, many of them didn't even want to make the crazy high-end gear they sell mainly to Asian markets but their customer base demanded it.

I doubt anyone is in the audio biz for profit only, if you're not interested in anything and want to make money I figure this is one of the worst businesses to get into. Of course I want to make money but I do this because I enjoy it.

 

[DaveC]

How long have you been in business Dave? Brand recognition takes time. You understand in this business it isn't what you know but who you know.

As a direct sales company who I know is a bit less important, but when I want to sell my new line of cables through dealers it will become very relevant... All of life is more who you know, for most people in most circumstances.

I think I've been doing this for 2.5 years now, maybe 3 and feel like I'm just getting started... Time flies...

 

[PeterA]

Well tell me what the DAC is then, if you are going to claim I recommended it. The Merging NADAC, used in conjunction with HQPLAYER resampling all audio to DSD 256, and connected to the server via fiber optics with the DAC side FMC powered by IFI Ipower?

If anything besides that, I didn't recommend. If it's the Merging HAPI, make sure a summing adapter is used on the DB25 output.

I think it will be the NADAC. I don't know the specifics about the rest of the chain. I am certainly not a digital guy, so I don't understand what is being done to this guy's digital front end, but I am open to learning and listening. My point is that it will be current digital, in 2016, and it will be compared directly to a top analog source in what I consider to be a very transparent system by WBF members who listen to a lot of live unamplifed music. There have not been many direct comparisons made and reported on in this forum between top analog and the digital that you recommend. Two fellow members and I will be doing just that. This is off topic for this thread, except that it will tell the three of us something about the current state of the High End.

It should be fun and informative. Until then you will simply have to wait to read the reports. They will be what they will be, and speculation will be replaced by actual listening.