The State of High End Audio

[Blizzard]

Try as you might, you didn't invent anything different. Dealers have been taking product to people's houses, with the added benefit of carrying different brands, so we can, for instance, show 3 different DACs so the customer can chose which one he prefers.

The only difference is that, usually, the customer supplies the beers

Yeah but the problem with the dealers, is the most of the product is usually at least double to triple the price, of equivalent quality gear from a direct sales manufacturer.

Marketing in magazines isn't free, distributors don't work for free, and dealers don't work for free either.

I'll tell you what, once I make it down to So Cal, we can meet up to audition some gear. You bring the Dartzell, and I'll bring what I have. I'll even supply the beer, and we can let the listeners decide what sounds better

 

[Rodney Gold]

More self promotion and vapourware.. stop shilling .. go back to your cage.

 

[Blizzard]

More self promotion and vapourware.. stop shilling .. go back to your cage.

I wouldn't come to your place Rodney, so don't worry.

 

[Folsom]

OK, the above is very good, but here is an adjunct to that: intelligent, common-sense people with $$$ would rather spend $2,500. rather than $25,000 for a component with equal sound. NOW, they have $$$ left in the pocket & can pay for convenience. The manufacturer, assembler, guru, brains etc. shows-up at your door [if within one-day driving range] & incorporates the components into your system - $2,500 + $1,000 convenience factor = $3,500.
Everyone happy.
The above would apply to PeterA, Blizzard, & others.


zz.

PLEASE.... That's ridiculous. Anyone selling something for $25k that sounds like a $2.5k item must be the equivalent of a mega rich house wife running a local organic coffee shop, where their mismanagement makes them tell their employees they're expensive as all hell and hard on the business, while paying them $8/hr... but for stereo's. (Knew a guy in college, he got a real kick out of the awards the lady received for her amazing local entrepreneurship)

Do you know what quality of parts difference is in that gap, for a legitimate markup? First off the cheapest direct markup at 2x your cost is $1250, now we'll times that by 5 to get dealer sale level markup, that's $6250. There's a comparable figure for how people choose to spend money.

Plus if I spend $5k in PARTS for something there is no "direct" sale equivalent. Some manufacturers choose parts based on sound you know...

 

[PeterA]

I'll personally bring it right into your listening room and set it up. Can't beat that. You pay direct sales prices, but get to audition right in your own home, own system, setup 100% perfect. Just sit back on the couch and I'll do all the setup work. I'll even bring beer for you to sip on while I set it up!

If you can think of a better way to audition a product than that, let me know.

Very interesting. So the price must include travel and lodging expenses. Jim Smith operates under these conditions. And Lloyd Walker and his partner Fred have been doing that for years with their turntable, though that is after a sale has been made. They then do the set up with the delivery. I guess you are describing a pre-sale model. If the sale does not take place because the customer is not pleased with the audition in his home, who pays for your travel and expenses?

Depending on travel distance from Canada, this could be a sizable percentage of the products price.

Another question: a local audio friend has a Canadian system which he bought directly from the designer. Repairs have been difficult and very slow because of duty and inspections at the border. Will you have US service representation?

 

[asiufy]

Yeah but the problem with the dealers, is the most of the product is usually at least double to triple the price, of equivalent quality gear from a direct sales manufacturer.

Marketing in magazines isn't free, distributors don't work for free, and dealers don't work for free either.

I'll tell you what, once I make it down to So Cal, we can meet up to audition some gear. You bring the Dartzell, and I'll bring what I have. I'll even supply the beer, and we can let the listeners decide what sounds better

Sure, but it also costs money to have all that product that's being taken to the customer's house, from different brands, with different pricing/policies.

We have no trouble at all pitching anything against any of our products, not only the darTZeel. We do compare things frequently, and we've passed on a whole bunch of products/brands simply because they offered nothing that our existing line up couldn't provide.

If you stuff is better, or at least equivalent, I will have no problem saying so.

But let me be a little bold here, and ask you to work more, and talk less. Most people advertise ("talk") when they have something to show, or at least a prototype. If I'm ever to hear your products, you actually need to work on them, and not only say everything else is sh*t and that your gear will render them inadequate.

 

[Folsom]

What's wrong with sending a demo around that gets beat to hell?

 

[Blizzard]

Very interesting. So the price must include travel and lodging expenses. Jim Smith operates under these conditions. And Lloyd Walker and his partner Fred have been doing that for years with their turntable, though that is after a sale has been made. They then do the set up with the delivery. I guess you are describing a pre-sale model. If the sale does not take place because the customer is not pleased with the audition in his home, who pays for your travel and expenses?

Depending on travel distance from Canada, this could be a sizable percentage of the products price.

Another question: a local audio friend has a Canadian system which he bought directly from the designer. Repairs have been difficult and very slow because of duty and inspections at the border. Will you have US service representation?

I would pay all of my expenses. I will just announce when I'm travelling to each city, and people can register for the visit. I like to travel anyways, so I'll just think of is as a vacation

I wouldn't worry about repairs being expensive. You can ship overnight to Canada from anywhere in the US. That company obviously had a very poor broker to handle cross border shipping. Besides, I'll assign authorized repair centres located in every major U.S city, trained for any warranty work. They will simply plug into diagnostic gear, determine the problem, and I'll express ship the new part for them to install. Turn around time for any warranty work will be under a week. My products will be built on modular boards. I won't repair boards if they fail for some reason, they will be replaced with brand new modules.

 

[Blizzard]

Sure, but it also costs money to have all that product that's being taken to the customer's house, from different brands, with different pricing/policies.

We have no trouble at all pitching anything against any of our products, not only the darTZeel. We do compare things frequently, and we've passed on a whole bunch of products/brands simply because they offered nothing that our existing line up couldn't provide.

If you stuff is better, or at least equivalent, I will have no problem saying so.

But let me be a little bold here, and ask you to work more, and talk less. Most people advertise ("talk") when they have something to show, or at least a prototype. If I'm ever to hear your products, you actually need to work on them, and not only say everything else is sh*t and that your gear will render them inadequate.

What makes you think I'm not working on my stuff? In fact I have 6 teams from around the globe, working very hard on my stuff as we speak. And I'm not saying everyone else's gear is sh*t compared to mine, nobody even know's what I'm working on. The under $10000 system I was talking about, consists of 100% stuff not from me.

All I ever talk about on here is 3rd party gear, or different technologies.

 

[PeterA]

OK, the above is very good, but here is an adjunct to that: intelligent, common-sense people with $$$ would rather spend $2,500. rather than $25,000 for a component with equal sound. NOW, they have $$$ left in the pocket & can pay for convenience. The manufacturer, assembler, guru, brains etc. shows-up at your door [if within one-day driving range] & incorporates the components into your system - $2,500 + $1,000 convenience factor = $3,500.
Everyone happy.
The above would apply to PeterA, Blizzard, & others.


zz.

In a sense, I have already done this, though it was not hardware related. I hired Jim Smith to travel to my house and perform his RoomPlay services. The cost was in the range you describe and the results were astonishing. It was the highest value purchase that I have made in this hobby. Not only were the results excellent, but I also had a wonderful time and learned a lot.

I suppose Jim offers a service which was part of what dealers used to offer. Some probably still do, but with more and more sales of used gear over the net, and cobbled together systems without the help of a local dealer, this type of service, and the ability to do it, seems increasingly rare. System set up matters a lot and audiophiles actually hiring non dealer independent consultants is increasing and it seems to be another aspect of how the High End industry is changing. I think a group of Asian audiophiles actually contacted Jim for his services on a number of their systems overseas.

I think we will see more of this in the future, if dealers continue to decline. It would be great to have a knowledgeable person like Blizzard set up/configure a digital front end. I don't have the foggiest idea of where to start. But that is for another day.

 

[Purite Audio]

In a sense, I have already done this, though it was not hardware related. I hired Jim Smith to travel to my house and perform his RoomPlay services. The cost was in the range you describe and the results were astonishing. It was the highest value purchase that I have made in this hobby. Not only were the results excellent, but I also had a wonderful time and learned a lot.

I suppose Jim offers a service which was part of what dealers used to offer. Some probably still do, but with more and more sales of used gear over the net, and cobbled together systems without the help of a local dealer, this type of service, and the ability to do it, seems increasingly rare. System set up matters a lot and audiophiles actually hiring non dealer independent consultants is increasing and it seems to be another aspect of how the High End industry is changing. I think a group of Asian audiophiles actually contacted Jim for his services on a number of their systems overseas.

I think we will see more of this in the future, if dealers continue to decline. It would be great to have a knowledgeable person like Blizzard set up/configure a digital front end. I don't have the foggiest idea of where to start. But that is for another day.

This is already happening with the Illusonic processor ( preamp,dac,ADC, phono stage sophisticated EQ, DSP crossovers ,and M/C
audio all in one box) you acoustically measure your room and Christof Faller creates an EQ for your room, the improvement in sound quality has been vast.

Keith.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I wouldnt waste my money on anyone that claims the ideal sound to aim for is flat FR at listening position .. so I really wouldn't require your services Blizzard.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

On the Steve Hoffman website they will be telling you that you can get a great sounding system for 3 to 5k.

True. You just have to weed them out, which is not difficult as many of them have their gear listed on their profile. Make no mistake, there are a of guys there with outstanding systems.

 

[FrantzM]

Not a mod but we may need to slow down on the ad hominem or anything close to it ...

TBH it is entirely possible to start a business by doing what Blizzard is offering. You won't be able to do it for long though. There will come a time where the running of the business (assuming it becomes successful) will take away this degree of freedom . On top of that there are various risks factors associated with going to a person a fixing his/her system. Dave Wilson did that back in the days whenever he sold a WAMM... Don't think he'll be doing any of that in the Here and Now unless they come back with a new WAMM (NWAMM? ) costing close to a $1 million which given the current state of affairs is not far-fetched. And no! I have nothing but respect for DAW, although not a big fan of his speakers but I admire the person and the way he managed to build, maintain a successful company in a cut-throat and rather hard business ector. His company is the epitome of a Successful High End Audio Enterprise.
The manufacturers must also find ways to present their equipment under better conditions. Big Audio festivals could be venues where they strut their wares at their best. Maybe form strategic alliances with Acousticians or Acoustics Treatment firms as to prepare the venues for their specific products (Pipe dreams ? ). That could work for the Acousticians too. A way for more exposure. Those small manufacturers need to become aware of the most important aspects of Small Business, Management. the need of all small business . I am an engineer and entreprenur and had to understand (euphemism for was forced to) that running a comapny involved much more than the obvious technical or technological aspect. Management is what make the making or breaking of a company not technical superiority. IOW those manufacturers have to become professionals and it is likely that tis be reflected in the final price... but not at the level we see as a normal course.

 

[DaveyF]

I am, and I make no secret about it. I put my money where my mouth is, and we obviously stock/carry products that we love and are proud of.

Again, please use Blizzard's area for comments on hardware you haven't heard, as he thrives on that. It'd be great if we could keep opinions, specially one that relates to value, to products we have heard?
.

+1000

 

[DaveyF]

True. You just have to weed them out, which is not difficult as many of them have their gear listed on their profile. Make no mistake, there are a of guys there with outstanding systems.

+1

Some of the guys at Steve Hoffman's forum are old time a'philes with many years of experience. I think a lot of people here would do well to give them some creed, IMHO.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

+1

Some of the guys at Steve Hoffman's forum are old time a'philes with many years of experience. I think a lot of people here would do well to give them some creed, IMHO.

+1 right back at ya!

 

[Blizzard]

Not a mod but we may need to slow down on the ad hominem or anything close to it ...

TBH it is entirely possible to start a business by doing what Blizzard is offering. You won't be able to do it for long though. There will come a time where the running of the business (assuming it becomes successful) will take away this degree of freedom . On top of that there are various risks factors associated with going to a person a fixing his/her system. Dave Wilson did that back in the days whenever he sold a WAMM... Don't think he'll be doing any of that in the Here and Now unless they come back with a new WAMM (NWAMM? ) costing close to a $1 million which given the current state of affairs is not far-fetched. And no! I have nothing but respect for DAW, although not a big fan of his speakers but I admire the person and the way he managed to build, maintain a successful company in a cut-throat and rather hard business ector. His company is the epitome of a Successful High End Audio Enterprise.
The manufacturers must also find ways to present their equipment under better conditions. Big Audio festivals could be venues where they strut their wares at their best. Maybe form strategic alliances with Acousticians or Acoustics Treatment firms as to prepare the venues for their specific products (Pipe dreams ? ). That could work for the Acousticians too. A way for more exposure. Those small manufacturers need to become aware of the most important aspects of Small Business, Management. the need of all small business . I am an engineer and entreprenur and had to understand (euphemism for was forced to) that running a comapny involved much more than the obvious technical or technological aspect. Management is what make the making or breaking of a company not technical superiority. IOW those manufacturers have to become professionals and it is likely that tis be reflected in the final price... but not at the level we see as a normal course.

The repair end of things is the least of anyone's worries. I think the Wamm system was a bit more complex to repair than what I'm talking about. Besides. Nobody seems to have an issue with Lampi products, and having to ship them all the way back to Poland at their costs for repair. Who do you think repairs products under warranty when returned to a dealer for warranty work? They either ship them back to the manufacturer, or have the repairs preformed locally. Either way, whether shipping direct to me for repairs, or somewhere locally, no reason for more than a week turnaround time. I order parts internationally on a daily basis, and have them within 2 days. Even from Japan, I have everything within 2 days. The modern world of logistics is very efficient.

 

[DaveC]

I've heard many speakers that use the same drivers, my opinion is valid thanks. Don't tell me what to post or where to post it.imo, it's idiotic to buy a $4k speaker with. $30k system budget, but whatever, you're opinion is no more or less valid than my own.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I've heard many speakers that use the same drivers, my opinion is valid thanks. Don't tell me what to post or where to post it.imo, it's idiotic to buy a $4k speaker with. $30k system budget, but whatever, you're opinion is no more or less valid than my own.

I'm on your side Dave! I don't know what the proper price ratio should be, but 1/7th or 1/8th only of total system cost makes no sense.