The State of High End Audio

[Blizzard]

please list the pieces so we can all go buy them.

I'll make a thread for my recommended system under $10000 soon. But not sure if it would be a replacement for your level of gear. I'm talking complete turnkey system based on stuff that can all be ordered online.

Speakers will not be floor standers of course, but top quality using components found in the finest speakers (Accuton) and xover components on par with what's used in the top on the line Magico's (Mundorf)

Stay tuned to Blizzards corner

 

[Blizzard]

I think it will be the NADAC. I don't know the specifics about the rest of the chain. I am certainly not a digital guy, so I don't understand what is being done to this guy's digital front end, but I am open to learning and listening. My point is that it will be current digital, in 2016, and it will be compared directly to a top analog source in what I consider to be a very transparent system by WBF members who listen to a lot of live unamplifed music. There have not been many direct comparisons made and reported on in this forum. Two fellow members and I will be doing just that. This is off topic for this thread, except that it will tell the three of us something about the current state of the High End.

It should be fun and informative. Until then you will simply have to wait to read the reports. They will be what they will be, and speculation will be replaced by actual listening.

Okay but it will need to be setup exactly right, or it's not what I recommended. The server will need to be powerful enough to smoothly upsample to DSD 256. Improper setup, or inadequate hardware anywhere in the system, and it won't be what I recommended.

 

[Folsom]

Dealers will be less popular in the future. Again, young people shop the opposite. I actually enjoy going to a dealer, check stuff out, etc. But a lot of them make the mistake of carrying boring stuff. It appears "safe" but isn't.

 

[Blizzard]

cool idea but would need to be bought and then tested by a few guys to be relevent. other wise its just a relitively benign interlectual proposition.

Yes it will need to be purchased, and listened to to realize how it sounds, no mistaking that.

 

[PeterA]

So this is what I am gathering so far from this thread: Tim thinks High End is nothing but a luxury. Someone else wrote that the High End has nothing to do with "high fidelity". We are asking for examples of mid priced high fidelity systems which we can hear for ourselves. The small designers are hoping to sell from dealer networks so they can be considered High End. But dealers are disappearing because the young whom we need involved to grow the high end are shopping elsewhere, perhaps from on line cooperatives of boutique manufacturers. I'm suddenly not so optimistic about the High End which is increasingly too expensive to buy and increasingly focused on the Far Eastern market. But, now there is another model.

Perhaps the High End is being replaced by the High Fidelity (What is Better Forum) at mid level prices? If so, should we not be celebrating? That sounds like a good state of affairs for the audiophile.

 

[Folsom]

i agree but not for top top end.

the right manufacturers together under a co op with the right brand addvice selling direct over the net..whats wrong with that idea?

I guess the question is how is it beneficial? It DOES appeal to youth in nature of multiple brands with differences, but the youth also gets wrapped up in no-money things often too.

 

[Blizzard]

It takes years to establish a brand identity and you're selling to folks who, in most cases, highly value that aspect. I am aware and figured it would take many years to establish my brand. It's ok, I'm not that old yet

We (some of us direct-sales brands) have considered joint marketing plans like you're talking about. There is some potential there for lower to middle end stuff. But I think high end gear is going to have to be sold through dealers to have any chance of success.

One example is my friend David's Natural Sound Group:

http://www.naturalsoundusa.com/

This makes a lot of sense to partner gear and offer complete systems where synergy has been tested and can be assured to the customer. I'll have to wait and see how they do with that model...

I'm going to have a completely unconventional approach to marketing my products once ready. I dont believe any of the current "status quo" methods are satisfactory. I'm throughly disappointed everytime I go to a dealer showroom, and it's too difficult to audition products online.

 

[FrantzM]

More expensive=Better. That is a very good point, Frantz. I was discussing marketing strategy with a well known manufacturer of audio electronics a few months back. Basically what is interesting was the fact that most of this companies production goes to the far east. More to the point is that the manufacturer told me that his dealers in the far east are consistently telling him to raise prices as high as possible. Apparently their market follows a simple dictum...the buyer acquires the gear only a) if it has a very high price and hopefully higher than the competing products and b) if it has a certain visual appeal ( which this manufacturer has been careful to maintain). Here's the interesting thing, the gear is rarely if ever listened to prior to purchase!!
I think a lot of us in the US and in Europe are used to the fact that we would buy based on what in the old days was a 'local' transaction... and as such the manufacturer's were cognizant of their 'local' market, whether that be a US market or a Euro market ( and would price their wares accordingly)...today due to the international market that all manufacturer's enjoy...particularly the far east market, the ability to increase pricing is more available than ever before.
The other comment that was interesting to me at the time from this manufacturer was this: " I really don't care too much about the US or Euro market anymore, my far east market is where it's at".

Very interesting and somewhat discouraging.
Few things: Please let's avoid the class war issues and the xenophobia.
What all this is pointing at is what I lament: In this way of business , where will progress come from. Of course there is an entire marketing vocabulary dedicated to show us how advance and high qulaity those products are. If there any hope that we would work developing some kind of objective metrics it's dashed. Rather stay within the comfortable boundaries of high price and high subjective praise many Audio reviewers are known for. And for the most part many if not most audiophiles aren't helping with the quasi-automatic deference to higher priced component or brand ... On this my pet peeve is that shown for FM Acoustics, too often without any kind of audition

 

[PeterA]

I'm going to have a completely unconventional approach to marketing my products once ready. I dont believe any of the current "status quo" methods are satisfactory. I'm throughly disappointed everytime I go to a dealer showroom, and it's too difficult to audition products online.

There is another model which seems to have evolved recently but which is not much discussed. I don't know if it exists per se, but there at least seems to be a trend towards the following: Brand loyal customers who write on forums and audition their gear for friends. I have had friends hear some of my gear and then order my amps or phono amp, or cartridge for their systems. I'm sure others have had similar experience. Word of mouth, nice familiar setting, auditioning under good conditions with familiar music. It is almost as if these customers are unofficial reps for the brands.

Some manufacturers have very generous in home trial periods and cover one way shipping. In essence, they have demo units shipping all over the country to be auditioned. Some dealers do this also outside of their territories as long as they don't create conflicts. UPS or Fed EX play a big role. Sure it is much more difficult for speakers or turntables and audio racks, but for most other components, it seems to work on a limited basis. This may increase in the future.

I can see digital gear and cables, and small Class D amps being sent out of third party distribution centers (or basements) located near manufacturers supported by lots of web chat and home auditions. Traveling samples from one customer to another. Perhaps gear will also be leased for a period of time to be returned/upgraded every few years.

 

[Blizzard]

are we all going round to your gaff then mike? great we can have that bonfire i was talking about at the same time

I'll personally bring it right into your listening room and set it up. Can't beat that. You pay direct sales prices, but get to audition right in your own home, own system, setup 100% perfect. Just sit back on the couch and I'll do all the setup work. I'll even bring beer for you to sip on while I set it up!

If you can think of a better way to audition a product than that, let me know.

 

[taters]

Are you a member of the Steve Hoffman Music Forums? You'll likely find a good number of members there.

On the Steve Hoffman website they will be telling you that you can get a great sounding system for 3 to 5k.

 

[Folsom]

So this is what I am gathering so far from this thread: Tim thinks High End is nothing but a luxury. Someone else wrote that the High End has nothing to do with "high fidelity". We are asking for examples of mid priced high fidelity systems which we can hear for ourselves. The small designers are hoping to sell from dealer networks so they can be considered High End. But dealers are disappearing because the young whom we need involved to grow the high end are shopping elsewhere, perhaps from on line cooperatives of boutique manufacturers. I'm suddenly not so optimistic about the High End which is increasingly too expensive to buy and increasingly focused on the Far Eastern market. But, now there is another model.

Perhaps the High End is being replaced by the High Fidelity (What is Better Forum) at mid level prices? If so, should we not be celebrating? That sounds like a good state of affairs for the audiophile.

Nice job. The thread has become a lot to read. But I'd say, "the youth are starting to spend differently, and would/will more if possible." Sorry I'm not sure how to condense that; I believe you're a better writer than I. There's more of a problem of not spending.

Don't be too disheartened. You've got very good gear. I'd love to introduce you to a system in Montana... It features two of my designs. It might make you rethink dollar value an awful lot, because it'll make you reconsider how you distribute money into components/drive you to make a purchase.

And actually I think you're hitting on something good. There are some superb direct offering deals out there that simply out class other stuff. They just need the customer base to become more consistent in the world. But I sure as hell hope that it doesn't mean the end of "high end" or remotely near, because my orientation is in that direction for commercial products since I enjoy a lot of it.

 

[asiufy]

Interesting, you're a dealer for the speakers in question...

I've heard MANY speakers that use Accuton and Raal drivers and while the Micro One is a great value, it lacks woofers and won't play the bottom two octaves at all and can't have decent impact in the bass or midbass region... it's just physically impossible, they lack the surface area to be a full range speaker. For a $30k system you can do a lot better... that I'm absolutely sure of. In the context of a $10 k system the speakers make more sense.

I am, and I make no secret about it. I put my money where my mouth is, and we obviously stock/carry products that we love and are proud of.

Again, please use Blizzard's area for comments on hardware you haven't heard, as he thrives on that. It'd be great if we could keep opinions, specially one that relates to value, to products we have heard?

Just so you know, we carry tower speakers at the same $4k price point, but for smaller rooms, the Micro Ones make more sense, if you're talking about absolutely high-end performance, when ALL parameters are involved, not only low-frequency extension.

 

[asiufy]

I could recommended a replacement for that Dartzeel costing around $4000, that I would put $1000 on beating in a blind test involving 10 experienced audiophiles.

Of course you could. You're a true expert at products you have never heard!

 

[zztop7]

Convenience factor

There is another model which seems to have evolved recently but which is not much discussed. I don't know if it exists per se, but there at least seems to be a trend towards the following: Brand loyal customers who write on forums and audition their gear for friends. I have had friends hear some of my gear and then order my amps or phono amp, or cartridge for their systems. I'm sure others have had similar experience. Word of mouth, nice familiar setting, auditioning under good conditions with familiar music. It is almost as if these customers are unofficial reps for the brands.

Some manufacturers have very generous in home trial periods and cover one way shipping. In essence, they have demo units shipping all over the country to be auditioned. Some dealers do this also outside of their territories as long as they don't create conflicts. UPS or Fed EX play a big role. Sure it is much more difficult for speakers or turntables and audio racks, but for most other components, it seems to work on a limited basis. This may increase in the future.

I can see digital gear and cables, and small Class D amps being sent out of third party distribution centers (or basements) located near manufacturers supported by lots of web chat and home auditions. Traveling samples from one customer to another. Perhaps gear will also be leased for a period of time to be returned/upgraded every few years.

OK, the above is very good, but here is an adjunct to that: intelligent, common-sense people with $$$ would rather spend $2,500. rather than $25,000 for a component with equal sound. NOW, they have $$$ left in the pocket & can pay for convenience. The manufacturer, assembler, guru, brains etc. shows-up at your door [if within one-day driving range] & incorporates the components into your system - $2,500 + $1,000 convenience factor = $3,500.
Everyone happy.
The above would apply to PeterA, Blizzard, & others.


zz.

 

[Blizzard]

Of course you could. You're a true expert at products you have never heard!

But we all know you would never be up for the challenge

 

[Whatmore]

There is another model which seems to have evolved recently but which is not much discussed. I don't know if it exists per se, but there at least seems to be a trend towards the following: Brand loyal customers who write on forums and audition their gear for friends. I have had friends hear some of my gear and then order my amps or phono amp, or cartridge for their systems. I'm sure others have had similar experience. Word of mouth, nice familiar setting, auditioning under good conditions with familiar music. It is almost as if these customers are unofficial reps for the brands.

Some manufacturers have very generous in home trial periods and cover one way shipping. In essence, they have demo units shipping all over the country to be auditioned. Some dealers do this also outside of their territories as long as they don't create conflicts. UPS or Fed EX play a big role. Sure it is much more difficult for speakers or turntables and audio racks, but for most other components, it seems to work on a limited basis. This may increase in the future.

I can see digital gear and cables, and small Class D amps being sent out of third party distribution centers (or basements) located near manufacturers supported by lots of web chat and home auditions. Traveling samples from one customer to another. Perhaps gear will also be leased for a period of time to be returned/upgraded every few years.

Roger Sanders offers 30day in-home trial and pays shipping both ways - anywhere in the world

 

[asiufy]

I'll personally bring it right into your listening room and set it up. Can't beat that. You pay direct sales prices, but get to audition right in your own home, own system, setup 100% perfect. Just sit back on the couch and I'll do all the setup work. I'll even bring beer for you to sip on while I set it up!

If you can think of a better way to audition a product than that, let me know.

Try as you might, you didn't invent anything different. Dealers have been taking product to people's houses, with the added benefit of carrying different brands, so we can, for instance, show 3 different DACs so the customer can chose which one he prefers.

The only difference is that, usually, the customer supplies the beers

 

[Rodney Gold]

Yesterdays youth becomes todays well heeled hobbyist.. there is a ready supply of folks willing to purchase self indulgent frivolities..

 

[Blizzard]

OK, the above is very good, but here is an adjunct to that: intelligent, common-sense people with $$$ would rather spend $2,500. rather than $25,000 for a component with equal sound. NOW, they have $$$ left in the pocket & can pay for convenience. The manufacturer, assembler, guru, brains etc. shows-up at your door [if within one-day driving range] & incorporates the components into your system - $2,500 + $1,000 convenience factor = $3,500.
Everyone happy.
The above would apply to PeterA, Blizzard, & others.



zz.

Well my first stop will be the Seattle area, so once ready, people can register for an in home audition.

I will setup in home, BS for a bit perhaps over a beer, or 2, wine or whatever, leave the unit at your place for a full day, and pick it up the next day. I can't see any downside to this approach.

And of course I'll bring an extensive library of high resolution audio